Pro Life Movement

[Daniel_Marsh]

Would you consider the prolife movement more catholic like or more protestant like? why?

 

[1ke]

Pro-life people are all people who recognize and seek to defend the humanity of the unborn, the dignity of each human person, and the inviolate nature of all persons. And they can come from any faith tradition, or none at all.

Because the only the Catholic Church and most Evangelical churches hold the absolute view that abortion (and euthanasia, and other pro-life key issues) is a sin, a grave injustice, and an atrocity, I would say that yes, you could say it’s “mostly” a Catholic movement and “mostly” an Evangelical movement. I don’t know why the Orthodox, who also hold this view, are not so involved.

Many of the “mainline” churches explicitly approve of legal abortion in their faith statements, some going so far as to actively participate in pro-abortion groups.

The Catholic Church alone stands against contraception-- which is the root of most of the issues we face today. But, many Evangelicals are coming around on this issue.

I would say that the majority of the pro-life groups active in this country and the majority of the pregnancy help centers in this country are run by either a Catholic or an Evangelical group.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

So, the methods that are used? would they be mostly catholic or evangelical?

 

[1ke]

Daniel Marsh:

So, the methods that are used? would they be mostly catholic or evangelical?

I don’t understand your question.

 

[joyfulmess]

I don’t understand your question either, are the methods you are asking about in reference to how we as catholics address the pro-life issue? Or are you asking for a comparison of the difference between catholic and protestants teachings regarding pro-life issues?

 

[dafalax]

I have HEARD that many protestants (not all) that are pro-life have exceptions, like for cases of rape or incest. Also, i think all protestants support some form of artificial birth control. I know some that don’t use the pill because of the abortifacient effect, but will use condoms. I think of the Catholic Church as embodying the pro-life movement more fully than protestants because we are against contraception which is the root of all these problems, but do not think that focusing on that is productive. The point is that anyone against abortion is to be commended and worked with lovingly as it is Christ’s work. Further, by working with these people, we can often bring them a level closer to the culture of life which is wonderful. Hope this helps.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Joyful, both and more. Here is my experience with the prolife movement and I am hoping to find better. History wise, I was one of the military people who was the clean up crew for Jonestown and as such the last thing I want to see is pictures of dead babies. Hey if pictures of dead babies floats your boat, so be it.
At the time my wife and I were going to Ward Pres in Livionia Michigan and the bulletin advertised a sunday school class on apologetics, witnessing “learn how to share your faith with others…” The first class showed a movie of a truck load of dead babies, I lost my cookies and left that class. I think the use of deception like they used is without excuse. Next week, I was told about a new class for public school teachers which is designed to build up the christian teacher who is feeling beat up by life and that this will be a healing class. I do not know what I was thinking, I went to it and you guess it, they have a speaker berating public school teachers and you are going to hell if you are not teaching in a “christian” school and so on. I left Ward that day never to return. Basically, every experience I have had with the socalled prolife movement from that day on at Madonna Univeristy used deception soley for the purpose of exposing people to pictures of dead babies. Those pictures turn many people like myself off to the prolife movement and drive us away from getting active. I am at the point where in good conscence I can not longer even vote for a prolife candidate because frankly our candidates have done a poor job in office. I am unemployed and until I am working again, I will be voting for the person I believe can get me back to work.

So, I am trying to figure out who is responsible for the deception to show pictures that no one wants to see. If I am to be won over to the prolife movement a site like the one I posted will do it – not the poor site that was posted in response.

So, my questions are simple, is there a difference between evangelical catholic methods, doctrine concerning life.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi dafalax, interresting thoughts. Now, I understand that abortion was too common in the time of Jesus. Can you think of any teachings besides “let the little children come on to me” that Jesus taught that would address abortion in his own day?

Give this question some thought before answering.

Basically, I am asking how did Jesus address abortion in his own day?

 

[Libero]

The Catholic Church alone stands against contraception-- which is the root of most of the issues we face today. But, many Evangelicals are coming around on this issue.

Hey hey hey, don’t forget the Southern Baptist Church of South America.

I have a question to (if you do not mind).

What are your viewpoints about using images of aborted foetus’ during pro life campaigning?

 

[BryPGuy89]

Daniel Marsh:

Would you consider the prolife movement more catholic like or more protestant like? why?

I would say that the prolife movement would be more Catholic promoted than protestant. I know that the Catholic Church strongly promotes the right to life. I have seen and read of Christian movements, many of them Catholic lead or initiated. I have even heard that there are protestant groups that support abortion and what not, they don’t have a universal standard like the Catholic Church.

 

[1ke]

Daniel Marsh:

the last thing I want to see is pictures of dead babies.

That is the reality of what abortion is and does.
Daniel Marsh:

At the time my wife and I were going to Ward Pres in Livionia Michigan

I assume that is Presbyterian
Daniel Marsh:

and the bulletin advertised a sunday school class on apologetics… The first class showed a movie of a truck load of dead babies

I am not sure of the connection or context in which a basic apologetics talk would include movies of aborted babies. There should have been advanced warning of what would be included in the evening if they planned to use these images.
Daniel Marsh:

I think the use of deception like they used is without excuse.

Deception implies they did it purposely. I cannot say that they were deceptive b/c I do not know that they did this purposely, or carelessly.
Daniel Marsh:

Next week, I was told about a new class for public school teachers which is designed to build up the christian teacher I do not know what I was thinking, I went to it and you guess it, they have a speaker berating public school teachers and you are going to hell if you are not teaching in a “christian” school and so on. I left Ward that day never to return.

That does sound very odd. But, that is one specific church congregation. And, this second talk is unrelated to the first talk and unrelated to pro-life groups. It sounds like you had a problem with Ward Presbyterian Church not with the a pro-life group.
Daniel Marsh:

Basically, every experience I have had with the socalled prolife movement from that day on at Madonna Univeristy used deception soley for the purpose of exposing people to pictures of dead babies.

Ok, now we’ve gone from Ward Presbyterian to Madonna University, which I am not familiar with. I do not know of what “deception” you speak regarding pictures of dead babies.

If you are stating the pictures themselves are deceptive you are wrong. They are the true face of abortion. If you are stating that the group sprung graphic images on unsuspecting people, that is different.
Daniel Marsh:

Those pictures turn many people like myself off to the prolife movement and drive us away from getting active.

Yes, this is true, it might do exactly that. However, they also motivate many people to become active in pro-life work when they are exposed to the truth of abortion. These images are also highly effective in dissuading women who are considering abortion. They are the truth, and many people are sadly convinced that there is no baby, that it’s just a “blob of cells”. Graphic images do have their place within the context of pro-life work. Certainly not solely, but as a piece of the pro-life message.
Daniel Marsh:

I am at the point where in good conscence I can not longer even vote for a prolife candidate because frankly our candidates have done a poor job in office.

This is not related to the rest of your post, and it seems very short-sighted and frankly lacking in sense. Pro-life candidates may or may not have done a great job in office, but putting a pro-abortion candidate in office is not the solution. The solution is to demand more of our pro-life candidates.

 

[1ke]

Daniel Marsh:

I am unemployed and until I am working again, I will be voting for the person I believe can get me back to work.

Good (but shortsighted) for you, bad for the 1.3 million babies killed every year. And bad for you if you happen to become disabled and unable to speak for yourself-- such as Terri Schiavo.
Daniel Marsh:

So, I am trying to figure out who is responsible for the deception to show pictures that no one wants to see.

Again you are back on this “deception” thing. I am getting the feeling you think the pictures are deceptive. They are, unfortunately, not deceptive but rather true. Do we want to see them? Maybe not. But, are they necesary to put a face and bring reality to the issue of abortion? Yes.
Daniel Marsh:

If I am to be won over to the prolife movement a site like the one I posted will do it – not the poor site that was posted in response.

I’m not following this argument. What sites? Maybe someone posted something, not sure. At any rate, what any specific group does or doesn’t do isn’t the point…

You should be ‘won over’ to the prolife movement not based on what any person or group do or do not do. You should be ‘won over’ by the fact that abortion kills babies-- and that is wrong. You should be ‘won over’ by God’s call to stand for truth and follow His Word. You should be ‘won over’ by your conscience.
Daniel Marsh:

So, my questions are simple, is there a difference between evangelical catholic methods, doctrine concerning life.

The Catholic Church is clear that abortion is murder. That is doctrine.The Catholic Church makes no pronouncement on how to live out your call to work for life and against abortion. There is no one right or wrong way to do so. People are active in literally thousands of different ways from giving health care to women, praying the rosary, providing transportation, sewing clothes, etc.

We are many parts, all one body.

 

[1ke]

Libero:

Hey hey hey, don’t forget the Southern Baptist Church of South America.

I am not familiar with the Southern Baptist Church of South America. Only the Southern Baptist Convention in the United States.

Libero:

I have a question to (if you do not mind). What are your viewpoints about using images of aborted foetus’ during pro life campaigning?

My viewpoint? I support them as one aspect of the pro-life effort.

The graphic images can be disturbing. They are thought provoking. And, they are the true face of abortion.

Pleasant? No
Necessary? Yes

The pro-abortion groups in this country have done a fairly good job of deflecting the argument away from the **humanity of the child ** and reframing the issue into one of choice.

The graphic images put a face back on the issue-- that of dead children. Real children. Not “blobs of tissue” or “products of conception”.

Many people are ignorant of fetal development. They are ignorant sometimes because they want to be. Other times because they have been duped by the pro-abort groups who have tried to reframe the argument and remove the humanity of the child as far from view as possible.

 

[1ke]

Daniel Marsh:

Hi dafalax, interresting thoughts. Now, I understand that abortion was too common in the time of Jesus.

Among the pagans, yes abortion was not unheard of. Common may be too strong a term. Exposing infants was more common.

Among the House of Israel, no abortion was not common. It was a sin against the fifth commandment and an abomination to the Jewish people.
Daniel Marsh:

Basically, I am asking how did Jesus address abortion in his own day?

Jesus taught and ministered to the Jews. Jesus had no reason to address abortion, per se. Abortion, murder, was an abomination to the Jews. Jesus restated the Law-- the moral law-- as binding. That, in itself is all we need in this regard.

 

[dafalax]

Daniel Marsh:

Hi dafalax, interresting thoughts. Now, I understand that abortion was too common in the time of Jesus. Can you think of any teachings besides “let the little children come on to me” that Jesus taught that would address abortion in his own day?

Give this question some thought before answering.

Basically, I am asking how did Jesus address abortion in his own day?

I disagree that it was common in Jesus’ day. Not unheard of, mind you, but not common, and definitely not done in Jewish society. Because Jesus ministry was primarily with the Jews (because as God’s chosen people, they were given the first opportunity to believe in Him) and they didn’t have abortion (at least in the vast majority of society), the gospels don’t speak of any instance where Jesus had the opportunity to deal with it.
So I’m not sure how to answer how Jesus DIRECTLY dealt with abortion in day, since it’s not like there were clinics He protested in front of, but the Bible is not silent on the matter. God says, “Before i formed you in the womb, i knew you.” (Jeremiah 1:5) That is a clear indication that humans are lovingly willed into existence by our Creator and don’t just happen. We are intended.
Also, the fact that John the Baptist leaped in his mother’s womb to joyfully greet the six-day-old embryonic Christ testifies to the fact that you don’t have to be born to have humanity. Elizabeth also calls Mary the mother of my Lord in this passage. Mary is fully the mother of the Lord even before the infant’s heart has formed and begun beating.
Also, whenever God blesses someone in the Bible, it almost always involves multiple children as part of the deal. Fruitfulness is always praised and barrenness is always pitied or meted out as a curse. God never once curses someone with children that they can’t feed and they all starve to death filthy and ragged (the picture Planned Parenthood paints of parenthood). Why? Because children are lives entrusted to you by God. This is not a matter to be taken lightly, but a great gift and responsibility.
Also, we have the instance of Onan who was killed for spilling his seed and refusing to give his brother’s widow children. Here we see that an act of intercourse intentionally rendered infertile is punishable by death. There were many acts of unchastity in the Bible that weren’t punished with death; the sterilization of the sex act, therefore, seems to be given more weight with regards to sinfulness. This is supportive of the wrongness of contraception.
Basically if you look at how contraception and abortion were viewed in Jewish society, it makes perfect sense that the gospels don’t have anything to say on the matter. After the Jews had all been given their chance to believe in Christ coming to fulfill the covenant, ministry to the Gentiles (the abortion offenders) began. Of course by then, Jesus had ascended into heaven and His Church had been established to guide the Gentiles to salvation and away from such heinous practices.
This is the best i can do. Hope i put enough thought into it for ye.

 

[Ghosty]

The only possible exception to the otherwise staunch anti-abortion stance of Judaism is danger to the life of the mother. Since the medical technology to determine if the mother’s life was in danger due to pregnancy wasn’t present in Jesus’ day, that exception wouldn’t have been either. Jesus said “keep the Commandments”, and in Jewish ethics abortion falls directly under “You shall not commit murder”. No other specific mention would be necessary.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Libero]

I am not familiar with the Southern Baptist Church of South America. Only the Southern Baptist Convention in the United States.

Oh that will just be me typing it wrong then, it is something about Baptist and Southern and America I remember reseacrhing it for my R+P topic

 

[tjmiller]

The true pro-life movement is more Catholic than protestant, simpy because the Catholic *Church * is more pro-life than are the protestants.

To be pro-life is of course much more than to be merely anti-abortion. It is to uphold, as the Catholic Church does, the inviolable sanctity of human life from conception to natural death against such atrocities as: artificial contraception, in vitro fertiliztion, human cloning, destructive embryonic stem-cell research, unnecessary capital punishments, etc.

Only the Catholic Church is consistently pro-life…

 

[manualman]

Those pictures are revolting.

They OUGHT to be revolting. In many cases, people have deluded themselves into thining abortion is an esoteric ethical issue that must be debated and decided upon without the interference of anything so shocking as the sight of blood and corpses.

That’s why it is exactly what some people NEED to see to disabuse them of their self-delusion about what abortion really is.

It is unfortuante that it brings up unrelated painful memories for you. But that’s no reason to vote for those who work to perpetuate the butchery.

 

[1ke]

Ghosty:

The only possible exception to the otherwise staunch anti-abortion stance of Judaism is danger to the life of the mother. Since the medical technology to determine if the mother’s life was in danger due to pregnancy wasn’t present in Jesus’ day, that exception wouldn’t have been either. Jesus said “keep the Commandments”, and in Jewish ethics abortion falls directly under “You shall not commit murder”. No other specific mention would be necessary.

Peace and God bless!

Unlike ancient Judaism, modern Judaism has no central authority, nor do they have one, unified teaching on the subject. There are various “branches” of rabbinic Judaism including Orthodox (and Hasidic), Conservative, and Reform. The latter have teachings in conflict with orthodox Jews.

Unfortunately, not all Jews are pro-life and not all of Judaism teaches abortion is wrong.

Actually, almost all the “escorts” that work at the PP where I sidewalk counsel are Jewish. Sad. Very sad.