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glimmer
Guest
This is incredible. Why in the world would somebody set you up ONLY because you are Catholic? I’ve never heard of such a thing.
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mark_a
Guest
Well I don’t know about THAT, but I do know there are herbal abortificients (sp?) that have been around for much longer than Protestants.
M
mark_a
Guest
Sometimes a personality clash can go over the top for such a reason. The good ol’ boy system works that way.
And it works both ways.
J
Jeanette_L
Guest
OH MY WORD! Pleeeaaassse don’t give me another book to put on my list!:whacky: I’m dyin’ over here!
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Jeanette_L
Guest
The problem is that usually just a few people (wolves in sheep’s clothing) get the pot stirred up real good by spreading rumors or discontent, lead people to believe things that aren’t true (or completely true), and other good people end up saying and doing wrong things because they don’t step back and think long and hard. Lots of people get hurt. Whole congregations split with anger and sometimes self-righteous indignation towards the “others” in the split, it’s just not a good thing, not good for anybody.
And it happens enough that most ministers are aware that it doesn’t take much to get the whole ball rolling against them. It keeps a lot of lips sealed on the pulpit when it comes to controversial topics.
Bottom line, fear of people trumps fear of God.
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AlegreFe
Guest
I believe it.I can only speak about my experiences. My 33 year marriage broke down because of the vicious lies of a church attending protestant who set out to wreck my marriage. Why? Because I am a Catholic.
I lost my job and my career, having been set up to fail. My accuser was a committed protestant. Why? Becaue I am Catholic.
That is absolutely TRUE
I have. It’s sad but true.
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glimmer
Guest
Oh…what a statement. It is so true. Even Peter denied the Lord three times because of this. This is what makes it so easy to stay out of institutional churches once you leave. I find the fellowship mostly improved–possibly because there’s no central leader to stick a knife in–or to fear. That’s sad.Bottom line, fear of people trumps fear of God.
The one church split I was in-- it was a time when some really terrible things happened in my life. Of course, no one could help me because they were preoccupied with this split. We had a major scandal involved. The person who really helped me during my crisis was the person at the center of the scandal. After being sufficiently castigated in public and deserted by most of the congregation, she had the humility to minister to my case. I will never forget her for that. The self-righteous left me wounded on the road to Jericho while the wounded healer washed my wounds.
That has been my experience throughout my travels in Christendom. People who know how the Church ought to run have no humility and people who have humility don’t always know how to run anything–but their prayers are purer and go higher.
Now where’d we get off on this?—Birth control pills. I think if pastors preached against birth control, people’s eyebrows might shoot up, but the people would do as they pleased anyway since there are no birth control police in the Protestant churches. I doubt it would jeopardize his job as long as he didn’t harangue the people continually or attack individuals over it. I know one lady with three kids and one on the way who was told from the pulpit that people had no business having more than two kids!
P.S. I have been considering lately the individual vs. the corporate experience of “church,” the interior vs. the exterior experience. It seems to me like there is no escaping it–no matter whether you go or don’t go to church, Mass, etc., it remains yet a very individual obstacle course. You must run the gauntlet past all these “followers” of Christ who have got figurative clubs to hit you with. Sometimes the church experience is more like fighting enemy combatants than having fellowship. I think of fellowship as two people helping each other in a struggle.
(What is this “coffee and doughnuts” after-service fellowship time I keep hearing about? Nonsense! Can you see the disciples after Jesus’ arrest meeting around coffee and doughnuts? “Hi, how ya doin’? What line of work are you in?” Can you see the Mother of Jesus, Mary Magdalene and John chilling out at the foot of the cross with coffee and doughnuts? Help us, Jesus!)
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mark_a
Guest
I like the Knights’ breakfasts after mass. 5$ ea. (not bad) and $10 (we’re there!) for the whole family.
F
flameburns623
Guest
Hank Hanegraaff, a Protestant apologist has stated publicly that he has serious issues with the use of birth control methods, in part due to the fact that so many are actually abortifacent. He has actually commended the use of NFP’s for very much the same reason the RCC does: because it teaches self-control.
I believe that one of the other nationally-known preachers and apologists (D. James Kennedy??? Pat Robertson???) has made the same point about birth-control pills. A few Episcopaolians that I know of still think that the use of birth control should be highly tempered by prayer and consideration. Not many other Protestants that I know of today raise the issue.
Please note these qualms center largely around the use of birth control pills themselves, because of their abortifacent properties. The use of condoms or spermicides, or the surgical sterilization of one or both partners is less commonly a concern.
I believe that one of the other nationally-known preachers and apologists (D. James Kennedy??? Pat Robertson???) has made the same point about birth-control pills. A few Episcopaolians that I know of still think that the use of birth control should be highly tempered by prayer and consideration. Not many other Protestants that I know of today raise the issue.
Please note these qualms center largely around the use of birth control pills themselves, because of their abortifacent properties. The use of condoms or spermicides, or the surgical sterilization of one or both partners is less commonly a concern.
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mark_a
Guest
I found this article on the Association of American Pro-Life OBs and Gyns:
aaplog.org/decook.htm
It casts doubt (I think, there’s lots of medical gobbledygook) on the abortificient claims by many pro-lifers.
M
mark_a
Guest
Found this on wikipedia:
American federal and British laws mark the beginning of pregnancy at implantation; thus, these agents are labeled as contraceptives, rather than abortifacients.
Oh what a tangled web we weave.
American federal and British laws mark the beginning of pregnancy at implantation; thus, these agents are labeled as contraceptives, rather than abortifacients.
Oh what a tangled web we weave.
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chutton
Guest
Hmm…interesting article. Thanks for posting.
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LittleDeb
Guest
Great article, thanks. Their detail is great. I don’t know if I can agree with their conclusion though. It still seems like the hormones released by conception would only enhance an existing well lined uterus. It would still seem too thin to fully support implantation.
I still would clasify them as abortifacients because they thin the lining so much. Their conclusion seems to be that in the six days before implantation the body’s new hormones would ‘make up’ for the thin uterus. That doesn’t follow. It would then mean that a normal, uncontracepted pregnancy would have too much lining if that is what is happening. The body lines the uterus based on the amount of hormone being released. Unless they could show that a pregnancy that resulted from break-through ovulation had more of the secondary hormone than a natural pregnancy, their theory doesn’t hold water.
Just my :twocents:. I am still going to go on the the information of the thin uterus. I also believe very strongly that Protestants should be told this information going in. That is one of the troubles with the lack of a universal leadership in Protestantism. Nowhere in the Bible does it say, “check out your contraception for the possibility of abortion.” It just doesn’t come up in Protestant churches.
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mark_a
Guest
Thanks for the clarification.
For those of us who are living as obedient Catholics, all this should have absolutely no effect on our practices.
I’m troubled to find that the laws which define when pregnancy begins have maybe the biggest impact of all. Since by law, pregnancy begins at implantation, not conception. This enabled IUD’s to be marketed as contraception instead of abortificient, even though it works ONLY as an abortificient.
I hope I read it right.
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Syele
Guest
Yeah as a protestant I believe life begins before implantation. The law is irrelevant. But I also believe that many people are confused because the law is like it is. So many people Blindly believe the government! ugh
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estesbob
Guest
I am not aware of any US law that marks the beginning of pregnancy at implantation. The pregnancy begins at implantation myth began as a public relation campaign by the US Pharmaceutical industry on the late 1950s. With the development of the IUD it was necessary to change the definition of pregnancy to gain acceptance of this new birth control device
As you said “oh what a tangled web we weave”
T
Teakafrog
Guest
I had never been told of the abortifacient properties of the pill. It honestly never occurred to me. I thought it only prevented ovulation. So when I became Catholic and learned the truth, believe me that was the first thing I confessed! It has caused me a lot of grief to think that for the few years I took the pill I may have unknowingly aborted my child, and now have infertility issues.
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mark_a
Guest
I’m not sure we blindly believe. I think its crafty wordsmiths (lawyers) who write these things misleadingly so as to confuse the general population.
Kinda like what’s happening in MO.
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mark_a
Guest
I’m not sure my single source is correct about the law, but I did read it. I think it was the aaplog site.
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LittleDeb
Guest
Yes that is a good point. I wasn’t even thinking about IUD’s as I read the article. Since it is the primary mechanism of an IUD to thin the lining, then a thin lining obviously causes an abortion. IUD’s allow conception. The little amount of hormone on an IUD is not strong enough to prevent ovulation.
It bothers me that this very serious issue is not discussed in many churches. My best friend (a Mormon not a Protestant) didn’t know any of this during all of their years contracepting. I felt bad telling her after the fact. It bothered me that it made no difference to her. Many people feel they are on contraception, “after much thought and prayer.” How can something be the result of prayer that ends in abortion?
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