Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice

[Newbie2]

You are not going to get me to ever say that it’s ok so stop trying.

No, I wouldn’t…and I wouldn’t stop trying either.

Just because those are the only options does not mean that it is even the slightest bit pro-life - and THAT is the question in the OP. We are not discussing the faults in legislation, that is a different topic for a different thread.

I only mentioned it since you brought it up.

~Liza

Yes, but doncha think that a wee bit of peripheral discussion in these threads is a good thing? If we stuck rigorously to the topic at hand, the mods would go nuts.

 

[Rence]

At the moment of conception the “fetus” is human. To deny is life in the case of rape…incest or otherwise is to deny the baby the right to full life. It is not the baby’s choice to have been conceived in an aggressive manner. It becomes the fruit of rape or incest…but is still a human. To end its being carried to full term is murder.

If a baby is aborted after a conscentual act is no different to the baby as if it were conceived through rape or incest.

Just my thoughts…which I believe are in line with Church teaching.

And you’re very much entitled to your opinion, as we all are

But I don’t think the OP was asking for any opinions or asking anyone to take sides. I think the OP was asking for clarification on the labels “pro-choice” and “pro-life” and was asking if the labels were absolute in their definitions.

 

[TheWatcher]

That’s not the point. The problem is with the poll. You are not going to get any accurate picture of what people actually believe by such a general question because many people that call themselves “pro-life,” for instance, will make exceptions such as when he woman’s life is threatened. You need to advertize your own distinctions to the public for whom you are taking the poll before you propose that question to them. So you need to ask very specific questions, not general ones like this, otherwise most people will perceive you as tricking them into answering a question that made them automatically side with a political agenda they didn’t want to side with from the start.

How would you word the question then?

Why should my own distinctions matter? That defeats the point.

The fact that people will often make exceptions and call themselves “pro-life” when many people see this as black and white is what prompted the question.

 

[spn82756]

And you’re very much entitled to your opinion, as we all are

But I don’t think the OP was asking for any opinions or asking anyone to take sides. I think the OP was asking for clarification on the labels “pro-choice” and “pro-life” and was asking if the labels were absolute in their definitions.

Howdy! They may not be absolute. For many years I’ve considered myself “pro-life” but also had to struggle with the death penalty. I would often use the excuse that capital punishment was different than abortion in the sense that the condemned criminal is not defenseless. I’ve slowly come to realize that all life is sacred. Believe me…there are times that I would love to see a cold calculating rapist put to death…or cold blooded murderer put to death. But I guess I was thinking more from the view of revenge. SLOWLY I’ve come to realize that only God has the right to end life.

So…with that said…how could I have been absolutely pro-life because I am totally opposed to abortion…but in favor of the death penalty. Hmmmm…not so black and white sometimes…is it?

Does that help?

Steve

 

[Syntax]

Why should my own distinctions matter? That defeats the point. The fact that people will often make exceptions and call themselves “pro-life” when many people see this as black and white is what prompted the question.

…because “except in extreme cases” is left undefined. One person will consider rape “an extreme case” and another person not, and one will consider the “potential loss of the mother’s life” an extreme case and the other not. So you won’t get an accurate picture of people’s actual beliefs.

What’s the goal of your poll anyways? To just find confirmation for your distinctions? What’s the point?

 

[TheWatcher]

At the moment of conception the “fetus” is human. To deny is life in the case of rape…incest or otherwise is to deny the baby the right to full life. It is not the baby’s choice to have been conceived in an aggressive manner. It becomes the fruit of rape or incest…but is still a human. To end its being carried to full term is murder.

If a baby is aborted after a conscentual act is no different to the baby as if it were conceived through rape or incest.

Just my thoughts…which I believe are in line with Church teaching.

That didn’t really answer the question.

You would consider the person who allows for exceptions (such as to save the life of the mother) to be… pro-life or pro-choice?

I’m trying to figure out where people draw the line between pro-life and pro-choice. Is it a black and white issue, or are there shades of gray?

 

[Syntax]

I’m trying to figure out where people draw the line between pro-life and pro-choice. Is it a black and white issue, or are there shades of gray?

Hence, you need to specify “except in extreme cases” means for the person taking the poll. I wouldn’t even answer this question because if its ambiguity.

 

[spn82756]

That didn’t really answer the question.

You would consider the person who allows for exceptions (such as to save the life of the mother) to be… pro-life or pro-choice?

I’m trying to figure out where people draw the line between pro-life and pro-choice. Is it a black and white issue, or are there shades of gray?

I would consider that to be pro-choice. That being said…I’ve never been in the position to have to contemplate that sin of what I consider murder. So…for me the real question is “would I commit the sin” if I were the person making the decision about my wife? That’s tough. It would take enormous amounts of prayer…and I just don’t know what I would do. That’s about as honest an answer I can give.

 

[TheWatcher]

…because “except in extreme cases” is left undefined. One person will consider rape “an extreme case” and another person not, and one will consider the “potential loss of the mother’s life” an extreme case and the other not. So you won’t get an accurate picture of people’s actual beliefs.

What’s the goal of your poll anyways? To just find confirmation for your distinctions? What’s the point?

I’m just trying to figure out where the line is drawn.

I know someone who claims to be pro-life but allows for all sorts of exceptions and another who claims to be pro-choice but is only alright if the mother’s life is put in danger.

Something isn’t matching up; so are the lines between “life” and “choice” hard lines?

I tried to research this by looking directly at the pro-life and the pro-choice websites, but many of them do not clarify their positions well. There are a few that will declare that they make no exceptions or limitations. The majority of the groups, however, remain silent about this.

 

[spn82756]

I’m just trying to figure out where the line is drawn.

I know someone who claims to be pro-life but allows for all sorts of exceptions and another who claims to be pro-choice but is only alright if the mother’s life is put in danger.

Something isn’t matching up; so are the lines between “life” and “choice” hard lines?

I tried to research this by looking directly at the pro-life and the pro-choice websites, but many of them do not clarify their positions well. There are a few that will declare that they make no exceptions or limitations. The majority of the groups, however, remain silent about this.

It’s a difficult question. It really comes down to “if you are pro-life” would you be willing to sin to protect your own interests in a moment of weakness? WOW…you’ve opened a real can of worms here. Good for you!

 

[Syntax]

I’m just trying to figure out where the line is drawn.

I know someone who claims to be pro-life but allows for all sorts of exceptions and another who claims to be pro-choice but is only alright if the mother’s life is put in danger.

Something isn’t matching up; so are the lines between “life” and “choice” hard lines?

That’s precisely the problem. The results of your poll are not going to tell you who thinks what, until you define what “except in extreme cases” means since people will interpret that differently. I am merely suggesting you start one by one with an instance of an extreme case such as:

“If a person believes abortion should be banned except when the mother is raped, then that person is…”

…that would be better.

 

[TheWatcher]

That’s precisely the problem. The results of your poll are not going to tell you who thinks what, until you define what “except in extreme cases” means since people will interpret that differently. I am merely suggesting you start one by one with an instance of an extreme case such as:

“If a person believes abortion should be banned except when the mother is raped, then that person is…”

…that would be better.

In my post itself, I listed three extreme cases. Rape, incest, and if the life of the mother was threatened.

I suppose I should have attempted to put that in the poll question itself. I don’t know if the polls here limit how many characters you can use for questions. Too bad I can’t go back and edit it.

 

[Syntax]

I suppose I should have attempted to put that in the poll question itself. I don’t know if the polls here limit how many characters you can use for questions. Too bad I can’t go back and edit it.

Yeah, and here’s another problem I just thought up. You were concerned about where people draw the line. Unfortunately, the poll is not going to show this and will put you right back where you started before you began. For instance,

Suppose persons both A and B believe rape, incest, and threatening the mothers life are all under the banner of “extreme cases.” And suppose person A checks that people who believe the no “exceptions allowed rule” are pro-lifers. But suppose person B considers himself a pro-lifer and checks that people who believe that the threat to a mother’s life provides that exception, but rape and incest don’t, are still pro-lifers anyway.

The results of the poll are going to show that both persons A and B think that people who don’t allow exceptions to the rule are pro-lifers. But the poll won’t show that B’s leaving out the exception of the mother’s life being threatened determined B’s decision. So you are still left without knowing what B believes, and you are right back where you started.

 

[spn82756]

Yeah, and here’s another problem I just thought up. You were concerned about where people draw the line. Unfortunately, the poll is not going to show this and will put you right back where you started before you began. For instance,

Suppose persons both A and B believe rape, incest, and threatening the mothers life are all under the banner of “extreme cases.” And suppose person A checks that people who believe the no “exceptions allowed rule” are pro-lifers. But suppose person B checks that people who believe that threats to a mother’s life provides that exception are still pro-lifers anyway.

The results of the poll are going to show that both persons A and B think that people who don’t allow exceptions to the rule are pro-lifers. But the poll won’t show that B’s leaving out the exception of the mother’s life being threatened determined B’s decision. So you are still left without knowing what B believes, and you are right back where you started.

Okay…now I’m getting confused. But I’m easily confused. Just ask my dogs!!

 

[TheWatcher]

Yeah, and here’s another problem I just thought up. You were concerned about where people draw the line. Unfortunately, the poll is not going to show this and will put you right back where you started before you began. For instance,

Suppose persons both A and B believe rape, incest, and threatening the mothers life are all under the banner of “extreme cases.” And suppose person A checks that people who believe the no “exceptions allowed rule” are pro-lifers. But suppose person B considers himself a pro-lifer and checks that people who believe that the threat to a mother’s life provides that exception, but rape and incest don’t, are still pro-lifers anyway.

The results of the poll are going to show that both persons A and B think that people who don’t allow exceptions to the rule are pro-lifers. But the poll won’t show that B’s leaving out the exception of the mother’s life being threatened determined B’s decision. So you are still left without knowing what B believes, and you are right back where you started.

Very good point.
I agree that the question should have been worded better.

Maybe I should have done a pro-life only question.

A person is pro-life if he or she believes that abortion is only permissible in the case of (checkboxs, allows for more than one)
A) danger to the mother’s health
B) rape
C) incest
D) other, please explain
E) Abortion is never permissible; that person would be pro-choice.

 

[Doc_Keele]

There seems to be a few people on this thread who (correct if I’m wrong) think banning abortion except in exceptional circumstances (rape, incest, serious threat to maternal life) is not preferable to the current situation in the US or UK. I find that very odd. Doesn’t seem “Pro-Life” to me.

 

[JohnCS]

These things always seem to come down to vocabulary. Pro-life seems to say that you are for life in ALL situations, otherwise there would be a choice involved. However, people use terms loosely all of the time. Some public figures that are very public with their views about abortion and gay rights that are DIRECTLY against Church teaching still call themselves “good practicing Catholics”, though that is clearly not the case. I read yesterday about a woman who helps in procuring abortions and even went to a few pro-choice rallies/protests, yet she calls herself pro-life because she wouldn’t personally have an abortion!!! Language always seems to make the biggest difference. Yesterday I read 10 pages of a thread where they debated the difference between human and human being, and why one was ok to kill and the other wasnt. It was rediculous in my opinion. But if you want to go that route here just look at the word: Pro-life … it is not Pro-life-with-exceptions. But that doesn’t help you draw your lines, at the very least your poll will show a good indication of how many people are strict pro-life without exceptions compared to how many allow for exceptions. That’s a start for your line drawing anyways. God bless.

 

[JohnCS]

There seems to be a few people on this thread who (correct if I’m wrong) think banning abortion except in exceptional circumstances (rape, incest, serious threat to maternal life) is not preferable to the current situation in the US or UK. I find that very odd. Doesn’t seem “Pro-Life” to me.

I think your wrong. I did not get that conclusion out of anything written here. The only thing that I saw was someone saying that allowing exceptions for “extreme cases” is a slippery slope. If that poster had her way she would have all abortions banned period. That does sound pro-life to me. The others just seem to be debating the effectiveness of the poll.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Hmmm

OK, so if you had a choice between legislation that allowed for abortion in very specific circumstances and legislation that allowed for unrestricted abortions, which would you choose (and please don’t say that you’d prefer legislation that prevented all abortions, because that isn’t gonna happen in our society, even though we both would want it to)?

You are not going to get me to ever say that it’s ok so stop trying

This was the particular exchange that caught my eye. You may be right, maybe the poster didn’t mean that one wasn’t preferable to the other.

 

[DaddyLarry]

It is precisely the way that this question is worded that lends legitimacy to the term pro-choice that I wrote about here. This question is not about “pro-life vs pro-choice”, but instead is about “pro-life vs anti-life” or “pro-life vs pro-abortion”. We must remove pro-choice as a legitimate term from our lexicon if we are ever going to win this debate.

Now to answer the question. The answer depends on the mindset of the person who supports such a position. If the person sees the situation as an intermediate step toward banning abortion completely, but will support whatever he or she can to cut down on the number of abortions currently committed, then that person is pro-life. If the person supports that position as an end, then that person is pro-abortion.