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KestrelRose
Guest
What do you say to man who can not protect his child because a woman has the legal to terminate the child’s life.
He has no choice in the matter.
And for that matter neither does the child.
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He has no choice in the matter.
And for that matter neither does the child.
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That_one_guy
Guest
Well, there’s pre-cana. I suppose the couple should’ve discussed this before they got married. Then again, if they’re Catholic the issue may never arise.
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That_one_guy
Guest
Hey ladies? I’m on another forum. Anybody got an answer for this question? She seems to be adamant.
veganrepresent.com/forums/showthread.php?p=351744#post351744
It’s not a Catholic forum.
Why are you refusing to answer my question? I am asking why a woman should be enslaved in order to fulfill the desires of complete strangers (i.e. choose to carry a fetus to term in order to give it up for adoption when she has absolutely zero desire to be pregnant or give birth). Even with every freaking precaution under the sun, there are still undesired pregnancies. I am asking why these women should lose their right to personal autonomy.
veganrepresent.com/forums/showthread.php?p=351744#post351744
It’s not a Catholic forum.
Why are you refusing to answer my question? I am asking why a woman should be enslaved in order to fulfill the desires of complete strangers (i.e. choose to carry a fetus to term in order to give it up for adoption when she has absolutely zero desire to be pregnant or give birth). Even with every freaking precaution under the sun, there are still undesired pregnancies. I am asking why these women should lose their right to personal autonomy.
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survive
Guest
I will answer her question.
Poster, I am a woman. I have had an unwanted pregnancy and an abortion and a miscarriage. I have been sexually abused. I have been homeless and alone. I have been addicted to drugs. I have gotten my degree and seen the world and accomplished many things, including helping to guide a troubled low-income area through a time of notorious social upheaval as a community leader, all of which I could also have done during or after a full pregnancy and I know it perfectly well because there were new mothers everywhere I went.
That’s to let you know where I’m coming from.
I will first challenge your description of a full pregnancy as “enslavement to the desires of complete strangers”. Pregnancy is not a form you can use to apply for the existence of a human being. It is the presence of an existing human being. This person, though new, is no stranger, but a relative. We have no opportunity to go backward in time and therefore can never unmake a human being. We can only let one another live or kill one another. Sometimes letting one another live involves experiences we wouldn’t choose off the top of our heads. But that is a far, far cry from a right to kill. Any society worth living in assumes a duty to protect the helpless from death at the hands of the violent and acts out that duty through law. This must apply regardless of age, size, intelligence, muscular strength, sex, hair color or skin color, or it ceases to protect all. It is always possible to see ourselves as enslaved to the folks around us and the folks we are around, by not getting to rip their limbs off and throw them by the millions in the garbage in numbered bags every time they affect us when we don’t want them to, but that would be the kind of cultivated delicacy that we cannot claim as grounds of self-defense. People are annoying, but they are precious and we must act as if they are precious or we shall not be able to live among one another in safety. Rather than slavery, this principle is just common humanity.
Indeed, there will always be unwanted pregnancies; there are also unwanted siblings, unwanted loud roommates who don’t let us sleep and unwanted stepparents who drive us up the wall, none of whom we are entitled to destroy and discard. Life lands people in hard situations together at times. Justification for homicide requires much more than lack of desire to be together awhile. This is especially so when the other person is completely innocent of any malice.
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Neolithic
Guest
I’m not a lady, but I can give you an answer. Most importantly, she needs to understand there is one precaution which can be taken that never results in an unintended pregnancy: abstinence.
Everyone knows that sexual intercourse can result in pregnancy, so should a woman become pregnant, whose fault is that? In my opinion, that’s implied consent. Why should an innocent child lose his or her life because the woman failed to exercise her right to personal autonomy via abstinence? It is by God or nature, taken your pick, that the female body no longer belongs solely to the woman during pregnancy.
Secondly, personal autonomy is a principle of natural law, so ask her why the child should lose his or her personal autonomy? (Note: There are many different types of “natural law,” but the Constitutional version is most important in the United States.)
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survive
Guest
As for personal autonomy, this is not mututally exclusive with pregnancy. While pregnant I decided who my friends would be, how late to stay up, when, where and whether to look for work, and what to read. I made my own decisions about politics, religious beliefs, and philosophy from the choices available, which were a wide range, just as wide as before I was pregnant. I decided what music to listen to, what exercises to do and what to eat. If I had found a job, I would also have been able to decide how many hours to work, whether to go to college at the same time or later and where to live, shop and hang out on my own time. Being with child had no substantial effect on these choices. Being a homeless alcoholic had a huge effect on them. I was forced by that to seek shelter where I could. It didn’t give me a right to kill anyone and wouldn’t have even if doing so could have provided me with an income, freeing me and opening possibilities. I had absolutely no desire to be a homeless alcoholic. Why should I be forced to? If killing someone could release me from that consequence of my earlier decisions over the years, why would anyone stop me? Well, obviously, because people have a right not to be killed. And that’s the answer to the question. People, even if they weigh an ounce or don’t have hair yet, have a right not to be killed.
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That_one_guy
Guest
Tapadh Leabh , survive!
I will paste this in the other forum as if a friend of mine posted it using my user name. You can cick on the link i gave and follow the thread.
again thanks.
Bill:thumbsup:
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williamric
Guest
Hi,
I refer you to my first post:
The government control over our body has nothing to do with this debate… If a woman committed a murder she would have no desire for the government to take her body to prison but guess what? If you committ a crime this is what will happen…
As I have said already this is an emotional red herring, people (men and woman) lose their personal autonomy on a daily basis when they commit crimes and thus lose many of their rights (i.e. the right to freedom)… This is entirely about the right/wrong and legal/illegal… If abortion becomes illegal woman who fall pregnant will lose their personal autonomy just like when I am angry and I want to kill someone, I lose my personal autonomy because my action would be illegal…
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That_one_guy
Guest
I’m gonna see where survive’s answer goes. you can follow it on the above link.
Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.They are all good answers.
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KestrelRose
Guest
Yes. Every couple should discuss these serious issues before having a sexual relationship. Men especially should be aware that their girlfriends and wifes have this legal right.
Men especially need to be aware of what it means to have a sexual relationship with a woman and what they can lose. I don’t think many men think this far ahead and they should.
For many men, the pain of having their child destroyed without any chance of protecting his child becomes a life time of grief.
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That_one_guy
Guest
Well, I got in trouble for allowing an outsider to post. So, they deleted it. They left it in some sort of link with a name I can’t remember.
I’m thankful i never had to go through these things myself. But, I also sort of wish I was more qualified to offer more than my mere ‘opinion’.
Thanks anyway.
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estesbob
Guest
I would agree with her. And also remind her that she should have no say over anothers body either.
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Psychotheosophy
Guest
I agree…
At conception,
A human embryo has DNA from the mother and father.
Therefore,
The human embryo is something different
From both the mother and father.
If the human embryo is not a human being
Then,
When the human being is created,
Where is the human embryo?
(unless the human embryo is the human being)
(Please forgive my use of the word “something,”
I needed to use it to demonstrate my point.)
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Neolithic
Guest
You might have noticed that I signed up and answered the woman. I don’t think I’ll be frequenting that forum too often, because I’ve noticed the majority of posters are way, way, way too liberal for me to deal with. I myself am somewhat liberal, but those people are communists. I have no patience for ideologues, so I would undoubtedly end up being banned.Well, I got in trouble for allowing an outsider to post. So, they deleted it. They left it in some sort of link with a name I can’t remember.
I’m thankful i never had to go through these things myself. But, I also sort of wish I was more qualified to offer more than my mere ‘opinion’.
Thanks anyway.
It has been my experience that people like that are so deprived of self-worth that they need an issue, an ideology, to make themselves feel important. Most vegans, I have learned, are precisely that. Not all, but most I know.
Most of them haven’t the good sense God gave a goose, either.
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jeanne71350
Guest
Getting an abortion is not relieving you of being a parent. It makes you kill an infant.
FIGHT FOCA!
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LeroyCRHP
Guest
I would say this isn’t government control of their bodies, the government didn’t make a woman and man sleep together and conceive. Beyond that there is another life to think of. It is basic moral, responsible, human behavior to care for one another and especially care for those that cannot care for themselves.
How angry do you get when you hear about the 3 month old baby being shaken to death? Why do you think the saying one dead, one wounded came about?
How angry do you get when you hear about the 3 month old baby being shaken to death? Why do you think the saying one dead, one wounded came about?
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That_one_guy
Guest
I thought something seemed familiar…
On the other hand,…Going to these sorts of places is better than preaching to the choir. I find it quite a challenge to convey Christian viewpoints without being ,…well,…preachy.
I’m glad you checked it out. I get on a bunch of these boards.I’m a nerd and or glutton for punishment like that.
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williamric
Guest
I still think your best option is to establish the irrelevance of the argument she is using… This allows you to avoid the “you are not qualified to give an opinion on the subject”… Furthermore, even if you had been pregnant, the experiences of woman can differ greatly and therefore regardless of whether you have experienced something they will still reject the argument as “fine for you but I feel differently”…Well, I got in trouble for allowing an outsider to post. So, they deleted it. They left it in some sort of link with a name I can’t remember.
I’m thankful i never had to go through these things myself. But, I also sort of wish I was more qualified to offer more than my mere ‘opinion’.
Thanks anyway.
We can objectively dismiss her argument as such:
A. She thinks that making abortion illegal will result in her losing her personal autonomy because she cannot choose to abort the child, and her argument is assuming that this is unique to this situation.
Her mistakes are numerous and obvious:
- She can still choose to abort, however, it will just be illegal. i.e. She has not lost her personal autonomy… However, since she seems to be implying that she will not do something illegal we can assume for arguments sake that she does lose her personal autonomy…however…
- This situation is not unique, or specific, to abortion (or woman) at all. For instance, this situation is exactly the same as murder because:
- Murder is illegal
- Under the same assumption as 1 (above) the law against murder also results in a loss of personal autonomy…however…
- You never hear her complain about the law against murder taking away her personal autonomy because she accepts that if murder is illegal (and wrong), that the reduction of your personal autonomy is acceptable given that it is better for society, and better for the persons who would have been murdered… This means that the argument against murder is based on the act of murder itself, and its legality, and there is no reason to apply a different standard to abortion…
Regards,
William
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That_one_guy
Guest
Honestly, the thread started making my head spin. But, I copied your words onto my notebook for easy reference should I go back to it. I’m sure I will. But, I have other forums to sew, if you catch my drift…I still think your best option is to establish the irrelevance of the argument she is using… This allows you to avoid the “you are not qualified to give an opinion on the subject”… Furthermore, even if you had been pregnant, the experiences of woman can differ greatly and therefore regardless of whether you have experienced something they will still reject the argument as “fine for you but I feel differently”…
We can objectively dismiss her argument as such:
A. She thinks that making abortion illegal will result in her losing her personal autonomy because she cannot choose to abort the child, and her argument is assuming that this is unique to this situation.
Her mistakes are numerous and obvious:
- She can still choose to abort, however, it will just be illegal. i.e. She has not lost her personal autonomy… However, since she seems to be implying that she will not do something illegal we can assume for arguments sake that she does lose her personal autonomy…however…
- This situation is not unique, or specific, to abortion (or woman) at all. For instance, this situation is exactly the same as murder because:
- Murder is illegal
- Under the same assumption as 1 (above) the law against murder also results in a loss of personal autonomy…however…
Sincerely, and humbly, I really think this is your best bet in dealing with this criticism…
- You never hear her complain about the law against murder taking away her personal autonomy because she accepts that if murder is illegal (and wrong), that the reduction of your personal autonomy is acceptable given that it is better for society, and better for the persons who would have been murdered… This means that the argument against murder is based on the act of murder itself, and its legality, and there is no reason to apply a different standard to abortion…
Regards,
William
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williamric
Guest
Yeah…No problem…
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