pro_universal's reasons for leavin the Catholic Church

[tequilamac]

Okay, you’re leaving out a key ingredient: Why are they angry?

Because of personal attacks? No.

They’re angry because I say moderate things about Islam and do not agree with their Islam bashing. Not agreeing makes people angry here.

No amount of different writing will cure your mischaracterization of my posts. You claim you understood, yet you accuse me of all sorts of things that appear nowhere in my writing.

I’ll make it simple for you: Re-read my posts. Then, write a response that separates points to make them clear.

No pro universal, again. People are angry with your posts not because of your blind faith in Islam’s goodness, but because of your repeated attempts to mischaracterise the Church. They are angry because first you blaspheme, than you sin against the eigth commandment, and them uphold Islam as a pure white star. No one can argue with an apostate and to my credit, pro universal, I have repeatedly asked people to stop arguing with you as much spiritual writing has already proved that arguing with someone who declares apostasy and himself an apostate makes the apostate more obstinate not less in the course. But in their defense I will say, that argument was exactly what you were looking for when you went to a Catholic forum and posted that you were leaving the Church, gave reasons that were false and then upheld Islam’s behavior. Why are you now complaining? You were given exactly what you were seeking. Ridiculous. No one goes to a Catholic forum and upholds Islam which is threatening to execute the Pope unless he wants a fight.

 

[pro_universal]

No pro universal, again. People are angry with your posts not because of your blind faith in Islam’s goodness, but because of your repeated attempts to mischaracterise the Church.

Again, please quote the Church teachings I got wrong. Disagreeing with the teachings is not mischaracterization. Arguing that the Church has been responsible for wrongful deeds in the past is not mischaracterization either.

They are angry because first you blaspheme, than you sin against the eigth commandment, and them uphold Islam as a pure white star. No one can argue with an apostate and to my credit, pro universal, I have repeatedly asked people to stop arguing with you as much spiritual writing has already proved that arguing with someone who declares apostasy and himself an apostate makes the apostate more obstinate not less in the course.

This would seem to contradict the Pope’s claim that Christianity is a religion of reason. After all, if universal human reasoning is the source, presenting reasoned arguments to an apostate should be just the ticket for convincing him/her of the truth of Christianity.

But in their defense I will say, that argument was exactly what you were looking for when you went to a Catholic forum and posted that you were leaving the Church, gave reasons that were false and then upheld Islam’s behavior. Why are you now complaining? You were given exactly what you were seeking. Ridiculous. No one goes to a Catholic forum and upholds Islam which is threatening to execute the Pope unless he wants a fight.

I certainly was not seeking to be called a liar more than a dozen times, and accused of being a terrorist supporter.

What I did seek to do was present a visible, opposing view to the litany of “them Muslimz is evil” posts. That’s what I wanted, and I hoped along the way to get into some fruitful discussions about the relationship between Catholics, Muslims, and everyone else.

But that didn’t happen…instead, I ended up with things like:

“Islam is evil, period. You are a terrorist if you don’t agree.”

“You never were a Catholic pro, you’re a liar”

Etc, etc, etc.

The problem here is that many members of this forum can’t stand to see someone say anything decent about Muslims. My own faith entered that discussion insofar as this peculiarly intolerant behavior helped to reveal to me that this Church isn’t preaching the full message of God.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

This would seem to contradict the Pope’s claim that Christianity is a religion of reason. After all, if universal human reasoning is the source, presenting reasoned arguments to an apostate should be just the ticket for convincing him/her of the truth of Christianity.

But human reasoning is not the source. Human reasoning is the end result.

Divine revelation is the source-- and we are given the ability to reason in order to discern true revelations from false revelations by the Spirit of the Lord.

pro_universal:

I certainly was not seeking to be called a liar more than a dozen times, and accused of being a terrorist supporter.

What I did seek to do was present a visible, opposing view to the litany of “them Muslimz is evil” posts. That’s what I wanted, and I hoped along the way to get into some fruitful discussions about the relationship between Catholics, Muslims, and everyone else.

But that didn’t happen…instead, I ended up with things like:

“Islam is evil, period. You are a terrorist if you don’t agree.”

“You never were a Catholic pro, you’re a liar”

Etc, etc, etc.

I will admit that I’ve been kind of dissapointed to by some of the responses you’ve received. It is clear to me that some people have jumped to conclusions about your intentions without really getting to know you.

pro_universal:

The problem here is that many members of this forum can’t stand to see someone say anything decent about Muslims.

That may actualy be true.

I think there’s more than a few fellow Catholics like myself who are quite rightly outraged at the behavior of some Muslims. The burning of the churches, the murdering of sisters, and proclomations of “death to the pope” do not fly well with us.

Yet, at the same time, we do have to take the time to discern which Muslim groups are doing this and ask whether they speak for all Muslims worldwide.

I myself don’t think these radicals speak for all of Islam. And, quite frankly, there are some fellow Catholics that probably do not have a maturity of faith to reasonably discuss these things without taking the recent events into account.

But those who are angry at these events and are lashing out at Islam for what the radicals have done do not speak for the Magisterium of the Church.

I myself have had my own share of discussions on this very topic here and with similar results.

pro_universal:

My own faith entered that discussion insofar as this peculiarly intolerant behavior helped to reveal to me that this Church isn’t preaching the full message of God.

But if you can acknolwedge that these radicals within Islam do not speak for all of Islam when they do the crimes they do, why do you then turn around and claim that Catholicism is wrong based on the incorrect replies from Catholics that are going against the Magisterium’s teachings regarding Islam?

Can you at least realize that many Catholics here have a good right to be angered-- and that they may be giving a knee-jerk reaction when going against the Catholic Church’s teaching by saying that “Islam is evil, period”?

In other words, if you can allow some radical opinions within the Catholic faith to sway you away from Catholicism because they are saying things uncharitably against Islam (things which go against the Magisterium’s teachings), then why do you not do the same thing when the radical murderers within Islam go against the things the moderates Muslims teach and do the horribly inhuman things they do?

That doesn’t make sense.

 

[Booklover]

But human reasoning is not the source. Human reasoning is the end result.

Divine revelation is the source-- and we are given the ability to reason in order to discern true revelations from false revelations by the Spirit of the Lord.

I will admit that I’ve been kind of dissapointed to by some of the responses you’ve received. It is clear to me that some people have jumped to conclusions about your intentions without really getting to know you.

That may actualy be true.

I think there’s more than a few fellow Catholics like myself who are quite rightly outraged at the behavior of some Muslims. The burning of the churches, the murdering of sisters, and proclomations of “death to the pope” do not fly well with us.

Yet, at the same time, we do have to take the time to discern which Muslim groups are doing this and ask whether they speak for all Muslims worldwide.

I myself don’t think these radicals speak for all of Islam. And, quite frankly, there are some fellow Catholics that probably do not have a maturity of faith to reasonably discuss these things without taking the recent events into account.

But those who are angry at these events and are lashing out at Islam for what the radicals have done do not speak for the Magisterium of the Church.

I myself have had my own share of discussions on this very topic here and with similar results.

But if you can acknolwedge that these radicals within Islam do not speak for all of Islam when they do the crimes they do, why do you then turn around and claim that Catholicism is wrong based on the incorrect replies from Catholics that are going against the Magisterium’s teachings regarding Islam?

Can you at least realize that many Catholics here have a good right to be angered-- and that they may be giving a knee-jerk reaction when going against the Catholic Church’s teaching by saying that “Islam is evil, period”?

In other words, if you can allow some radical opinions within the Catholic faith to sway you away from Catholicism because they are saying things uncharitably against Islam (things which go against the Magisterium’s teachings), then why do you not do the same thing when the radical murderers within Islam go against the things the moderates Muslims teach and do the horribly inhuman things they do?

That doesn’t make sense.

No it doesn’t! I think Pro’s been thoroughly brainwashed by the Islamic agenda!

 

[tequilamac]

Again, please quote the Church teachings I got wrong. Disagreeing with the teachings is not mischaracterization. Arguing that the Church has been responsible for wrongful deeds in the past is not mischaracterization either.

This would seem to contradict the Pope’s claim that Christianity is a religion of reason. After all, if universal human reasoning is the source, presenting reasoned arguments to an apostate should be just the ticket for convincing him/her of the truth of Christianity.

I certainly was not seeking to be called a liar more than a dozen times, and accused of being a terrorist supporter.

What I did seek to do was present a visible, opposing view to the litany of “them Muslimz is evil” posts. That’s what I wanted, and I hoped along the way to get into some fruitful discussions about the relationship between Catholics, Muslims, and everyone else.

But that didn’t happen…instead, I ended up with things like:

“Islam is evil, period. You are a terrorist if you don’t agree.”

“You never were a Catholic pro, you’re a liar”

Etc, etc, etc.

The problem here is that many members of this forum can’t stand to see someone say anything decent about Muslims. My own faith entered that discussion insofar as this peculiarly intolerant behavior helped to reveal to me that this Church isn’t preaching the full message of God.

What you are getting wrong is obvious. You keep lumping all Christians into the same claims whether it be Jack Chick type Christianity or Catholicism. As long as you keep referring to Christians this and Christians that , you will not have any crediblity at all when you claim any differences in Muslim theology. Now if you simply cannot understand that, you have no business trying to defend either one. When you begin to understand that certain Christian religions have a theology different from others that causes them to respond differently, then we can discuss. But as long as you continue to claim ignorance of the differences in the Christian religions, there is no point in discussing Islam is there, not with you.

No apostate or heretic was ever able to see the full teaching of truth in the Church. That is why God made the confessional. when one sins, one confesses and one can see again. But as long as you are blinded by your arrogance, pro, you will never see God in ANY religion. There are those who can see God everywhere. Those we call saints. Saints are people who accept completely the truth of Christ in the Eucharist without any sin. There are those who have never been baptised and yet can do exactly that.Then there are those who can see little bits and pieces of God. They are the ones who can only claim a level of truth in any religion. But those who cannot see the fullness of truth when staring it in the face and consuming it daily, will never see God at all. Anywhere. Not here, not in Mecca, not in Jerusalem, not in life, not in death. But it is your choice. The fact is pro, if what you say about yourself is true, 99% of Muslims have a better chance at the beatific vision than you do. What an irony.

 

[lazylong6]

hinduism.co.za/jesus.htm

Please go to this link and read.

Thank you

 

[lazylong6]

i was also a catholic, i don’t know if my reasons are the same with Pro,( have not read much of the thread) but i reject what is unreal and strived for what is truth.

 

[thistle]

i was also a catholic, i don’t know if my reasons are the same with Pro,( have not read much of the thread) but i reject what is unreal and strived for what is truth.

Only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth being the true church established by Christ on Peter and given authority to teach.

 

[lazylong6]

can you not agree that there are saints and holy men exiting in other religions as well? a saint is not a “good” man but one who had realize god. In Buddhism it would be call enlightenment and Hinduism Samadhi. Do you not see any coherence existing in all religions? and the truth lies somewhere at the root.

Know that the kingdom of heaven is also with in, as it is with out.

         When you belong, to a particular religion, do you not see that it's just a group,  that are seperated from other groups?  If god is perfect(no doubt.)Why can't religion be universal as well? rather then divided among group names.  groups will always produced conflict, because they each claim they are the only path to god (kingdom of heaven, enlightenment etc..)

groups will hate even when they talk about loveing all, do you not see as long as we are Group A Group B Group C etc. there will be conflict? If god made man in the image of himself, then we ALL should follow one unified religion rather then belonging in different groups called a religion…

I see no unity in contemporary religion as it is now.

i am not a Catholic… nor a buddist… or an atheist… because these are all beliefs… which are illusional. If God is here then God must be. Why divide ourselfs into groups? When Religion had existing perfectly as it was all along, And no name must be assign to it?

(I may have make some mistakes typeing… this because i dont read what i wrote ,The truth cannot be fully express in words and must be experience for the self alone.)

I am emphasizeing a point, so plz dont point out minor mistakes and see the totality of what i am trying to say to get my message.

I will say more another time. Hopefully everyone will be able to adjust to the ONE religion.

 

[lazylong6]

I read books from Paramahansa Yogananda, plz don’t judge the man and see the truth in his words. I know you will look him up online or read one of his books.

I recommend the book : The Science of Religion

(Love)

 

[tequilamac]

I read books from Paramahansa Yogananda, plz don’t judge the man and see the truth in his words. I know you will look him up online or read one of his books.

I recommend the book : The Science of Religion

(Love)

OMG. This thread started badly and now it is worse.

 

[lazylong6]

OMG. This thread started badly and now it is worse.

from how you responsed to me it seems that my words are being judged rather then acknowledge… how is it “bad”… even if you said its “good” its still a judgement…

passage of words do not need to be critique but to understood. what good does judgment do but to stir other emotions in a positive or negative way? , if its only from your limited view and not god’s almighty omnipresence, does it have truth in it? Partial truth is not true at all… if you let sentiment enter your words…

Do you even know about Yogananda? Have you ever read any of his books. I am guessing you only read what you think is supposeingly true, which will always keep you in ignorance, its no different from chooseing the group you want to be in and not listen to the other people. How can you know truth if truth is in present everywhere and you only see a small part of it in the catholic church.

i am talking to you directly and to all those who have the same view point as you.

(I may make mistakes in typeing what i am trying to express…)
I do not attack people with words about what is right and what is wrong…cause i don’t need to defend anything that is already are.
its only for us to understand that, if you are ignorant its because you will not to change.

The reason why i say so much stuff is because no one post anything i can really reply to…
they either think it in their heads or find some fault in my words and ignore… and critique later… don’t you see that help none of us if you do that?

(love)

 

[tequilamac]

Do you even know about Yogananda? Have you ever read any of his books.
(love)

No I never heard of him. Why would I want to? Whenever anyone comes to CAF espousing a different doctrine, I assume they are here to confuse and mislead and may not even know it. As a result, no, I do not read the material offered as there is not enough time in the day to read correct and truthful Catholic literature, let alone the myriad of writings of those who deem themselves smarter than God.

 

[exoflare]

Can you at least realize that many Catholics here have a good right to be angered-- and that they may be giving a knee-jerk reaction when going against the Catholic Church’s teaching by saying that “Islam is evil, period”?

I think we need to clarify things a bit here. Just how would you define an “evil” religion anyway? My definition happens to be any religion that specifically condones or promotes evil practices.

 

[thistle]

from how you responsed to me it seems that my words are being judged rather then acknowledge… how is it “bad”… even if you said its “good” its still a judgement…

passage of words do not need to be critique but to understood. what good does judgment do but to stir other emotions in a positive or negative way? , if its only from your limited view and not god’s almighty omnipresence, does it have truth in it? Partial truth is not true at all… if you let sentiment enter your words…

Do you even know about Yogananda? Have you ever read any of his books. I am guessing you only read what you think is supposeingly true, which will always keep you in ignorance, its no different from chooseing the group you want to be in and not listen to the other people. How can you know truth if truth is in present everywhere and you only see a small part of it in the catholic church.

i am talking to you directly and to all those who have the same view point as you.

(I may make mistakes in typeing what i am trying to express…)
I do not attack people with words about what is right and what is wrong…cause i don’t need to defend anything that is already are.
its only for us to understand that, if you are ignorant its because you will not to change.

The reason why i say so much stuff is because no one post anything i can really reply to…
they either think it in their heads or find some fault in my words and ignore… and critique later… don’t you see that help none of us if you do that?

(love)

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I think we need to clarify things a bit here. Just how would you define an “evil” religion anyway? My definition happens to be any religion that specifically condones or promotes evil practices.

Do you have any examples of these evil practices?

We can go back to this thread if you wish.

 

[exoflare]

Do you have any examples of these evil practices?

We can go back to this thread if you wish.

Okay, I made a post to “bump” that thread so I can respond more thoroughly when I have time. As for the examples of evil practices endorsed by Islam, are you really not aware of any after all this time…?

Oh well, like I said - more on this later…

 

[pro_universal]

But human reasoning is not the source. Human reasoning is the end result.

Divine revelation is the source-- and we are given the ability to reason in order to discern true revelations from false revelations by the Spirit of the Lord.

I do agree. But using my faculties on these questions leads me away from the Catholic Church, not towards it. My issue with trinitarian doctrine is that if we apply reasoning to it, it doesn’t turn out to make sense. The human reasoning which you acknowledge was given to us in order to discern true from false tells us that this teaching is inconsistent.

I myself don’t think these radicals speak for all of Islam. And, quite frankly, there are some fellow Catholics that probably do not have a maturity of faith to reasonably discuss these things without taking the recent events into account.

I agree with you here on this point, but the problem is, supporters of “death to the pope” and terrorists are clearly a minority on their side.

On the Catholic side, are people who hold these views towards Islam a minority? I certainly don’t think so, and even though they don’t speak for the magesterium of the Church, the magesterium certainly is not doing a good job of correcting them. The Pope’s recent use of a quote defaming Islam is a good example. Instead of setting people on the path towards respecting Islam, many Catholics (especially right here on this forum) took the quote to mean that their anti-Islam tirades were justified and sanctioned by the Church.

But if you can acknolwedge that these radicals within Islam do not speak for all of Islam when they do the crimes they do, why do you then turn around and claim that Catholicism is wrong based on the incorrect replies from Catholics that are going against the Magisterium’s teachings regarding Islam?

For one, I’m not convinced that the Magesterium really has an interest in condemning this type of speech anymore.

But in addition, Catholicism makes a special claim…its membership is supposed to be worthy to consume God every sunday. Yet you can search the Church for opinions on Muslims and warfare, and you will find attitudes similar to those expressed here. There’s even a Priest claiming that Muslim cities should be hit by nuclear weapons (cestusdei, is his posting hame.)

Ask yourself this: would people who take the substance of God into their bodies every week, and someone who is an authorized representative of Jesus on earth, say these things?

 

[pro_universal]

What you are getting wrong is obvious. You keep lumping all Christians into the same claims whether it be Jack Chick type Christianity or Catholicism.

Okay, just to lay this to rest:

Please quote the sentence of a couple of sentences where I “lump all Christians into the same claims.”

Just quote the language. If you can’t come back with some quotes from my posts to support this claim, I’ll assume it’s because you read back over them and could not find any.

 

[TheGarg]

Sure, but ask yourself this: Would a just God make salvation dependent in a significant way on believing in a doctrine which no rational mind can conclude is coherent?

It’s my opinion .

Fyi, you remarks are opion, as stated by you, and directing you as the final authority on what is True, which you are not. I am sorry you have missed it, because it is crystal hear, but only to a humble heart.

there is a buffet of relgions though, that are all about the perverbial you, so you should have no problem finding one.

If you ever genuinely see them, the answers are there if you want to find them, but they are not answers that will reflect Your way or agenda, or any man’s way or agenda, but they will reflect the Way, the Truth, and the Life according to Jesus.

and yes, faith will help to

Peace of the Lord be with you