pro_universal's reasons for leavin the Catholic Church

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Yes, you miss the point again. “God’s sin” is not a thing, even in theory. It’s incoherent to even talk about the possibility of God sinning (and that means logically incoherent). Hence, there is no thing that God cannot do…coming up with a jumble of words and saying “see, God can’t do this!” does not describe a limit on God’s power.

God’s power is loving, for he is our Father. God’s power is also mysterious, because only faith can discern it when it “is made perfect in weakness”. As such, God’s almighty power is in no way arbitrary. It is by his infinite mercy that he displays his power at its height by freely forgiving sins.

In God, his a) power, b) essence, c) will, d) intellect, e) wisdom, and f) justice are all identical.

I repeat: they are identical.

Therefore, nothing can be in God’s power which could not be in his just will or his wise intellect.

There’s no doubt that faith in God the Father Almighty can be put to the test by the experience of evil and suffering. God can even sometimes seem to be absent and incapable of stopping evil.

But I’m not arguing for this. That’s what some atheists do.

In the most mysterious way God the Father has revealed his almighty power in the voluntary humiliation and Resurrection of his Son, by which he conquered evil.

In this sense, Christ crucified is thus “the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.”

It is actually in Christ’s resurrection and exaltation that the Father has shown forth “the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe”.

In other words, God’s ability to forgive is what makes him Almighty.

But only faith can embrace the mysterious ways of God’s almighty power. This faith glories in its weaknesses in order to draw to itself Christ’s power.

The Virgin Mary, from a purely human perspective, is the supreme model of this faith-- for she believed that “nothing will be impossible with God”. As such, she was able to magnify the Lord: “For he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.”

Furthermore, nothing is more apt to confirm our faith and hope than holding it fixed in our minds that nothing is impossible with God. Once our reason has grasped the idea of God’s almighty power, it will easily and without any hesitation admit everything that the Creed proposes for us to believe-- even if they be great and marvelous things, far above the ordinary laws of nature.

 

[inJESUS]

To my knowledge he never explicitly revealed what it was that caused him to stop writing. Apparently, since he stopped writing at this time, it appears that he never put this revelation down into words.

too bad .

inJESUS, do you think I’ve said anything bad about God by saying that he cannot sin?

 

[pro_universal]

You do illogically use the strictest applications of logic when it suits your purpose and blatently disregard them all when it doesn’t suit your purpose. You also like to tell others what they actually think and have no problem telling them they have no idea what they are talking about.

Well, since a significant part of the posting the past few days has been to agree with a Catholic teaching that I think is logically consistent (namely, that God is all powerful), I’d have to say my record is pretty fair. Your problem is that you apparently cannot distinguish between “logical” and “Mr. Ex Nihilo believes it.”

And everything you’ve been posting to date reflects this simple truth: you are trying to convince yourself that the Catholic Church is no longer where you need to be– just like the rest of us use logic to verify what we already believe.

Again, logical analysis verifies precisely zero. What it does do is tell you if the structure of the argument makes any sense. But as for verification, it adds absolutely nothing. So no, this is most certainly not what I’m doing.

If you don’t like the Catholic faith anymore and prefer the Islamic faith, then leave us and join them.

I don’t understand. I don’t know how much more clear I can make myself that I left the Church, and you’re offering this like it’s some novel advice I haven’t considered.

 

[pro_universal]

I’ve specifically used these rules to determine what new formulaes may be derived from your original premises.

Okay, I’ve asked you at least ten times now to show it, and you have refused. Now you’re quoting from logic primers the form of the thing I’ve been asking for (obviously so) for a long time now, and without applying it to the argument in question.

I can only conclude that you don’t know how.

you’ve really done is repeatedly accuse me of being a heterodox Catholic that doesn’t know a thing about logic.

Yeah. Good luck with that kind of approach pro. You’re going to convince a lot of people that way.

Well, you don’t need me to convince you that your religion teaches that God is all powerful and unlimited in every way. That’s something you can hear from your parish priest if you want to ask him.

The fact that you got the teaching of the Church blatantly wrong is good evidence that it’s easy to get wrong, which would seem to add to my list of reasons for not believing any longer in this Church.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

too bad .

I agree. I kind of hoped that he would have written that last thing.

inJESUS:

nop but the argument is over “what is sin” in order for God to do it or not.

That’s right.

inJESUS:

Sin is whatever it is…it is something God knows about yet does not do/cannot do because of His own nature. It does not mean that God is not All-powerful, it’s just that He cannot do anything that is not compatible with His nature. My 2 cents.

That’s basically what I’ve been saying too-- although I would note that I think he’s aware of the good we need instead of the things we lack. I also think this is what tequilamac is saying too. I’m honestly not sure what pro is saying anymore-- but I think he generally agrees with this too…maybe.

To be honest, I don’t understand why people are saying I’ve got a heterodox view on this. I thought it was a good thing to say that God cannot sin.

More to the point, I know the catechism teaches that it is by his infinite mercy that he displays his power at its height by freely forgiving sins. In Christ’s Resurrection and exaltation the Father has shown forth “the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe”.

And yet it seems I’m being blatently slandered by an apostate Catholic as having a heterodox view because I’m claiming that all-powerful means all-good. And, in addition to this, I’m being warned by tequilamac that I’m wrong, virtually blaspheming God for saying this.

I find this truly bizarre.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

This question makes no sense.

Yes. Actually, it does make a lot of sense.

pro:

Believing that the bible is the word of God is one thing; acknowledging that others believe it to be so is another. Whatever I think of the scriptures, they are without a doubt trustworthy for the purpose of figuring out what Catholics believe.

But you’re not just ackowledging that others believe it to be so.

In order for you to believe they are trustworthy for figuring out what Catholics believe, you have to have a good understanding of what they actually claim. Consequently, if you can’t say for sure whether they are trustworthy or not, how on earth can you make the claim that you understand them?

This point should be self-evident pro.

 

[amoxoxoma]

Amox stepped in because Amox “wants to show me that I’m not as wise as I think I am” (So says Amox in personal messages to me.) That sentiment reflects the complete absence of anything resembling a contribution to the debate.

For the record, it has been about 6 months since Pro-U and I exchanged PMs, and the occassion of those PMs was in the course of a discussion on WhyIslam.org (not here on the Catholic Answers forums) regarding Islam’s teaching about “death to apostates” and Pro’s claim that the teaching of the Catholic church had always been essentially the same - that heretics ought to be put to death.

Pro, admit it, I have not had any PMs with you about anything since then. The fact that I happen to agree with Mr. Ex Nihilo’s side of the discussion here is I’m sure not surprising to you. I have purposely stayed out of the debate BECAUSE I really don’t have anything to add. The whole discussion is out of my realm - I admit it - but I have been following it.

And I certainly do think you are not as wise as you think you are - but that’s irrelevant to this debate.

 

[tequilamac]

I don’t understand. I don’t know how much more clear I can make myself that I left the Church, and you’re offering this like it’s some novel advice I haven’t considered.

Pro I have a question in response to your above statement. Since you have left the Church, could you explain why you are here on the forum telling everyone about it? Is it because you are hoping to take others with you? Or what? I am sure it is not to justify your leaving since you ceratinly do not owe us any explanation. What is your motivation in leaving the Catholic Church but not the Catholic forums?

 

[pro_universal]

Pro I have a question in response to your above statement. Since you have left the Church, could you explain why you are here on the forum telling everyone about it? Is it because you are hoping to take others with you? Or what? I am sure it is not to justify your leaving since you ceratinly do not owe us any explanation. What is your motivation in leaving the Catholic Church but not the Catholic forums?

Actually, it’s because I value discussing religious beliefs, and someone asked me specifically about this topic. I haven’t started any threads to advertise anything; I do note (since I’ve been accused dozens of times of not being Catholic in the past) that I am not Catholic now, and sometimes people ask about it.

Here’s a thread that someone else started on the subject, and here’s me giving my opinions. I think it’s a good thing too. You’ll notice in my thread history that since I started talking about what I believe and why, the incidence of having threads derailed by people calling me a secret muslim has declined.

 

[tequilamac]

Actually, it’s because I value discussing religious beliefs, and someone asked me specifically about this topic. I haven’t started any threads to advertise anything; I do note (since I’ve been accused dozens of times of not being Catholic in the past) that I am not Catholic now, and sometimes people ask about it.

Here’s a thread that someone else started on the subject, and here’s me giving my opinions. I think it’s a good thing too. You’ll notice in my thread history that since I started talking about what I believe and why, the incidence of having threads derailed by people calling me a secret muslim has declined.

You enjoy discussing religion. Okay I buy that answer.

A secret Muslim? Do you mean one in the closet? Why would someone be a closet Muslim? That is kind of funny you know. A closet Muslim. Hmmmm.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Okay, I’ve asked you at least ten times now to show it, and you have refused. Now you’re quoting from logic primers the form of the thing I’ve been asking for (obviously so) for a long time now, and without applying it to the argument in question.

I can only conclude that you don’t know how.

only?

sigh

One can also conclude that you don’t want to know how. I’m not claiming this as the ‘only’ possibility. But it certainly is a possibility.

pro:

Well, you don’t need me to convince you that your religion teaches that God is all powerful and unlimited in every way. That’s something you can hear from your parish priest if you want to ask him.

Yes. He’s unlimited in everyway because everything he does is good. I know the catechism teaches that it is by his infinite mercy that he displays his power at its height by freely forgiving sins. In Christ’s Resurrection and exaltation the Father has shown forth “the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe”.

pro:

The fact that you got the teaching of the Church blatantly wrong is good evidence that it’s easy to get wrong, which would seem to add to my list of reasons for not believing any longer in this Church.

If someone gets something wrong, it’s generally because they didn’t actually understand it. The difficulty involved in understanding it, however, may or may not be due to the complexity of the topic.

By the way, I’m standing by what I’ve said-- God cannot sin. God cannot lie. God cannot steal. God cannot murder. And I’ve never said anything wrong by doing so, despite any ‘syntax errors’ you’ve claimed I’ve made.

“God’s sin” is not a thing, even in theory. It’s incoherent to even talk about the possibility of God sinning (and that means logically incoherent).

Yes. Indeed, if saying these things were ‘syntax errors’, one would have to wonder why the Holy Scriptures are inerrantly filled with these logical impossibilities that God supossedly can’t even theortically conceive.

If you’ve left the faith over disagreements between fellow Catholics, then you never really did believe this to begin with.

The sham in this thread is pretending that you actually did believe.

I have no intentions of leaving the true Church over any disagreement that tequilamac and I may have had. I’m sure tequilamac has no intention of leaving either. In fact, I’m positive of this.

Maybe he’s right. Maybe I’m right. Maybe we’re both right and we’re just arguing over semantics. Maybe we’re both a little bit wrong and we can learn from each other through this disagreement. And maybe you’re using this disagreement to your own advantage within this debate in order to justify your own lack of faith. These are all possible too.

But both tequilamac and I know the Catholic Church is the true church pro.

You, however, don’t really know what you actually believe.

So I guess it really is time to leave this one to contemplative prayer as kellie and others advised a while back.

Enjoy your search man. I’m sure Islam will be more to your liking once you take that leap of faith.

 

[pro_universal]

Well, this is surely taking a turn for the less productive.

only?
also conclude that you don’t want to know how. I’m not claiming this as the ‘only’ possibility. But it certainly is a possibility.

You claimed you were going to show me how my statements were illogical using this method numerous times. Yet the (very easy to do, I might add) proofs never showed up.

If someone gets something wrong, it’s generally because they didn’t actually understand it. The difficulty involved in understanding it, however, may or may not be due to the complexity of the topic.

That’s true, but I already have a good idea of the topic. It’s a complicated one, it’s just one where there are good arguments to support the Catholic position.

By the way, I’m standing by what I’ve said-- God cannot sin. God cannot lie. God cannot steal. God cannot murder. And I’ve never said anything wrong by doing so, despite any ‘syntax errors’ you’ve claimed I’ve made.

Yeah, but you can’t make sense of what it means to say these things. By your reasoning, these “God cannot” represent real limits, and therefore, necessitate the conclusion that God does not have the power to do all things. Your reasoning is flawed on this subject, and reduces “all powerful” to a meaningless title.

If you’ve left the faith over disagreements between fellow Catholics, then you never really did believe this to begin with.

The sham in this thread is pretending that you actually did believe.

Alright, so now I’m a liar because I disagree with you?

Maybe I left the faith because I understood it better than the average Catholic.

 

[tequilamac]

Maybe I left the faith because I understood it better than the average Catholic.

No. Understanding the faith has very little to do with whether anyone remains or leaves. You left the faith because you did not believe.

It is a responsible individual with a certain level of maturity who can say “I left because I did not believe in it.”

The immature person says “I left due to someone or something else’s fault.”

Your remark indicates the fault is the Church’s or other peoples when actually that is rarely the case.

You left on your own hook on your own responsibility like an adult I hope. You left because you did not believe it.

If you left because the Church is wrong, then your being here simply to discuss religion is not true.

Personally I find pornography wrong and because** of that I do not visit pornographic sites in order to argue with them about their wrongness.

In light of your reasons for being here on this particular forum, it is best to return to responsibility and maturity and state clearly “I left because I did not believe.”

Otherwise, your motives are suspect as we would then have to believe you are here in order to take others with you after you convince them how wrong the Church is. Not just because you enjoy discussing religion. Do you see the difference?

 

[pro_universal]

No. Understanding the faith has very little to do with whether anyone remains or leaves. You left the faith because you did not believe. It is a responsible individual with a certain level of maturity who can say “I left because I did not believe in it.”

The most responsible people also read the thread before commenting. I can’t count how many times on this thread I’ve said specifically “I just don’t believe it, period.” So for you to say this says that you’re attacking my character without actually reading the thread.

In light of your reasons for being here on this particular forum, it is best to return to responsibility and maturity and state clearly “I left because I did not believe.” Otherwise, your motives are suspect as we would then have to believe you are here in order to take others with you after you convince them how wrong the Church is. Not just because you enjoy discussing religion. Do you see the difference?

The question is: Why did I stop believing? That’s what’s being answered here, that’s why you will find detailed explanations for the problems in Catholic theology.

If you are offended by criticism of your Church’s teachings, you should be responsible enough not to visit the non-Catholic religions forum.

I have no interest in convincing other people to leave the Church. I certainly do not, however, have to answer every remark of “cant’ you see how true it is! LOOK, it’s the trinity!” with a smile and nod.

 

[tequilamac]

The most responsible people also read the thread before commenting. I can’t count how many times on this thread I’ve said specifically “I just don’t believe it, period.” So for you to say this says that you’re attacking my character without actually reading the thread.

The question is: Why did I stop believing? That’s what’s being answered here, that’s why you will find detailed explanations for the problems in Catholic theology.

If you are offended by criticism of your Church’s teachings, you should be responsible enough not to visit the non-Catholic religions forum.

I have no interest in convincing other people to leave the Church. I certainly do not, however, have to answer every remark of “cant’ you see how true it is! LOOK, it’s the trinity!” with a smile and nod.

1. Did you leave because you did not believe in it? Or did you leave as according to your prior post “Maybe I left the faith because I understood it better than the average Catholic.” Those are two different things.

1a. I have been responsible enough to read the thread. Which is why I state clearly now that you appear to be operating from two different motives. Which one will win out remains to be seen.

1. I am not offended by you in the slightest. I am offended frequently by Mr. Ex Nihilo and Amox. Please do not ascribe that motivation to my answers.
2. God has never required we “understand” anything about Him at all. It is unreasonable to embark on a search to understand then become disgusted that one cannot understand. God in any religion whether it be Judaism, Islam or Christianity is “incomprehensible”. Anyone who makes the claim to “understand” God is simply deluded.

Which is why I can find my own brethren offensive but not you, or any Jew, or any Muslim, or any Mormon, etc.

Most Catholics these days believe the fastest ticket to Heaven is to claim to possess a knowledge or certainty that they do not have.

However, even the greatest saints and Jesus too had moments of doubt. Jesus had an absolute agony in the garden and is last words in the passion would indicate a bit of doubtful misery.

But the “average Catholic” you refer to has absolutely no doubt or anxiety. Look around just this forum to see. You will find almost everyone will not admit to any temptation whatsoever.

This phenomenon is described in the Gospel of St. John. It basically means they are deceived and deluded by sin.

1. Anyone who abandons their “mainstream” religion out of the inability to understand it’s theology is destined to leave any religion out of a lack of understanding. All theology is based on understanding God who is “incomprehensible.” They will leave Islam for it will ultimately be not understandable. They will leave Judaism for it will ultimately be not understandable. Because God is not understandable.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Well, this is surely taking a turn for the less productive.

Would you rather I stayed and debated with you (over and over again) over something that you apparently believe you understand better than us and yet no longer believe?

Is this is another contradiction?

I think you should become a Muslim pro. Based on your responses, I’d say you fairly well already are on your way there. So whatever you have to do, do it quickly and get it over with.

pro:

You claimed you were going to show me how my statements were illogical using this method numerous times. Yet the (very easy to do, I might add) proofs never showed up.

Apparently, according to you, I don’t know how.

You’ve actually claimed this from the beginning now that I think of it.

pro:

That’s true, but I already have a good idea of the topic. It’s a complicated one, it’s just one where there are good arguments to support the Muslim position.

Have you ever noticed that you’re never wrong about anything pro?

I’m not joking here either. Admittedly, I haven’t read all your posts-- there’s probably a lot I haven’t read in your 1400 to 1500 posts or so. But whenever I’ve read your posts, you’ve never once admitted that you made a mistake.

Not once.

I’m not talking about apologizing. You haved apologized in both senses of the word I know. But as far as making an intellectual or factual error, no. I’ve never seen you admit this.

pro:

Yeah, but you can’t make sense of what it means to say these things. By your reasoning, these “God cannot” represent real limits, and therefore, necessitate the conclusion that God does not have the power to do all things. Your reasoning is flawed on this subject, and reduces “all powerful” to a meaningless title.

No pro.

These "God cannot"s present no real limit to God’s ability to be good.

God is all-good regardless of what he cannot do. Get it?

And what you’re presenting here really is the Muslim view.

I don’t know what else to tell you. It really is by his infinite mercy that he displays his power by freely forgiving sins. In Christ’s Resurrection we really do see “the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe”.

This is straight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church– and I’m not making this up.

pro:

Alright, so now I’m a liar because I disagree with you?

No. The sham is the idea that you ever actually believed in the first place.

Don’t get me wrong. Unlike others, I’m fairly sure that you were Catholic at one time (and I highly doubt that you’re posting from the Arabian Sahara as some have intimated). But I’m almost positive that you were just ‘going through the motions’ and never felt anything meaningful within the faith.

Consequently, if you are indeed a liar, you are most likely lying when you claim you left the faith because you understood it better than the average Catholic.

On the one hand, you blame everyone else around you for your own unbelief. But only you can choose to believe or not pro. Neither tequilamac or myself can believe this for you.

On the other hand, you blame the Catholic faith itself by saying that you understand it better than others-- thereby implying that if people were as smart as you they too would doubt what the Catholic Church claims.

Regardless of whatever reason is given, a strange thing seems to occur whenever you answer our questions-- it’s never your fault. When one adds to this the observation that you never appear to admit to making factual/logical mistakes, it leads people to think that it really may be a waste of time discussing this with you.

pro:

Maybe I left the faith because I understood it better than the average Catholic.

And maybe you didn’t.

No. This is surely taking a turn for the more productive.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

1. I am not offended by you in the slightest. I am offended frequently by Mr. Ex Nihilo and Amox. Please do not ascribe that motivation to my answers.

What did we do?

3. God has never required we “understand” anything about Him at all. It is unreasonable to embark on a search to understand then become disgusted that one cannot understand. God in any religion whether it be Judaism, Islam or Christianity is “incomprehensible”. Anyone who makes the claim to “understand” God is simply deluded.

Which is why I can find my own brethren offensive but not you, or any Jew, or any Muslim, or any Mormon, etc.

Most Catholics these days believe the fastest ticket to Heaven is to claim to possess a knowledge or certainty that they do not have.

However, even the greatest saints and Jesus too had moments of doubt. Jesus had an absolute agony in the garden and is last words in the passion would indicate a bit of doubtful misery.

But the “average Catholic” you refer to has absolutely no doubt or anxiety. Look around just this forum to see. You will find almost everyone will not admit to any temptation whatsoever.

This phenomenon is described in the Gospel of St. John. It basically means they are deceived and deluded by sin.

What exactly are you saying here?

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

1. I am not offended by you in the slightest. I am offended frequently by Mr. Ex Nihilo and Amox. Please do not ascribe that motivation to my answers.

Again I ask, what have I said to offend you?

I am asking you as a brother in Christ to forgive me if I’ve said anything to offend you.

tequilamac:

1. God has never required we “understand” anything about Him at all.

What are you talking about?

Since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

tequilamac:

It is unreasonable to embark on a search to understand then become disgusted that one cannot understand. God in any religion whether it be Judaism, Islam or Christianity is “incomprehensible”. Anyone who makes the claim to “understand” God is simply deluded.

Even the pagans had a basic understanding of God tequilamac, the Greek philosophers being a very good example of this. And Paul mentions this when he notes that from one man God made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth. Paul notes that God determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.

Paul even goes so far as to specifically say that God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

The apostle even quoted their own poets to them:

‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’

and again…

‘We are his offspring.’

Paul is quoting pagan poets to pagans in order to demonstrate that they know some basic knowledge about God.

tequilamac:

Which is why I can find my own brethren offensive but not you, or any Jew, or any Muslim, or any Mormon, etc.

Admittedly, we are only to judge those inside the church.

tequilamac:

Most Catholics these days believe the fastest ticket to Heaven is to claim to possess a knowledge or certainty that they do not have.

Are you saying that we don’t know God?

tequilamac:

However, even the greatest saints and Jesus too had moments of doubt. Jesus had an absolute agony in the garden and is last words in the passion would indicate a bit of doubtful misery.

I don’t know of any fellow Catholic who doesn’t go through moments of doubt at some time. I know my own autistic son has certainly challenged my faith in God sometimes. I’m sure it’s not easy for him to be autistic either. And yet, after these periods of trial, we are strengthened by this adversity. My boy is a blessing to me because he is autistic. I beleive that God’s made me a better person because of him.

tequilamac:

But the “average Catholic” you refer to has absolutely no doubt or anxiety. Look around just this forum to see. You will find almost everyone will not admit to any temptation whatsoever.

You’re speaking with some very sweeping terms about ‘most Catholics’ here. I’ve admitted to temptation in this very thread. I’m sure there are many other fellow Catholics who have done likewise in other threads.

tequilamac:

This phenomenon is described in the Gospel of St. John. It basically means they are deceived and deluded by sin.

Are you actually saying that I’m deceived and deluded by sin because I’ve claimed that God cannot sin?

tequilamac:

1. Anyone who abandons their “mainstream” religion out of the inability to understand it’s theology is destined to leave any religion out of a lack of understanding. All theology is based on understanding God who is “incomprehensible.” They will leave Islam for it will ultimately be not understandable. They will leave Judaism for it will ultimately be not understandable. Because God is not understandable.

God’s spiritual nature is not completely comprehensible tequilamac. I’ve never claimed it was. I don’t know of any fellow Catholics on this forum who have ever made this claim to be honest.

But God’s basic qualities are most certainly understandable.

With Job, the just man, we confess: “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted”.

Faithful to the witness of Scripture, the Church often addresses her prayer to the “almighty and eternal God” believing firmly that “nothing will be impossible with God”.

God shows forth his almighty power by converting us from our sins and restoring us to his friendship by grace. “God, you show your almighty power above all in your **mercy and forgiveness. . **.”

If we do not believe that God’s love is almighty, how can we believe that the Father could create us, the Son redeem us and the Holy Spirit sanctify us?

 

[inJESUS]

i think Tequilamac is saying that we can’t understand God fully, not that we can’t understand anything.

Am still interested in the sin idea though that no one rsponded to so far if not mistaken. Isn.t sin something God knows about yet does not do?

 

[pro_universal]

I think you should become a Muslim pro. Based on your responses, I’d say you fairly well already are on your way there. So whatever you have to do, do it quickly and get it over with.

This is just puzzling. I’m searching my responses for something that has anything to do with Islam, and I’m not seeing anything except an expressed interest.

Apparently, according to you, I don’t know how.

You’ve actually claimed this from the beginning now that I think of it.

You’ve been welcome to disprove this notion for days now…no material has appeared, however.

I’m not joking here either. Admittedly, I haven’t read all your posts-- there’s probably a lot I haven’t read in your 1400 to 1500 posts or so. But whenever I’ve read your posts, you’ve never once admitted that you made a mistake.

Of course I have. I’ve even apologized to you on this very thread for presuming too much about what you know. That was for a factual error, namely, assuming that you had no clue what I was talking about with regard to logic.

No pro.

These "God cannot"s present no real limit to God’s ability to be good.

God is all-good regardless of what he cannot do. Get it?

Uh, you’re answering a different question. Is this a limit to God’s power in the absolute, ie, that there are some things God couldn’t do even if he wanted to?

And what you’re presenting here really is the Muslim view.

This claim is just plain bizarre.

But I’m almost positive that you were just ‘going through the motions’ and never felt anything meaningful within the faith.

Positive based on what? I certainly believed enough to learn all about my faith and try to engage it intellectually. I even used to engage protestants and non-Christians whenever I could to try and make sense of the religion to them. Those days are over, of course.

On the one hand, you blame everyone else around you for your own unbelief. But only you can choose to believe or not pro. Neither tequilamac or myself can believe this for you.

Who am I blaming here? Huh?

Regardless of whatever reason is given, a strange thing seems to occur whenever you answer our questions-- it’s never your fault. When one adds to this the observation that you never appear to admit to making factual/logical mistakes, it leads people to think that it really may be a waste of time discussing this with you.

Okay, what am I missing here? Who is being blamed for me not being able to see the “sense” in the trinity anymore? And the latest issue, whether God is all powerful, is one where I’m saying I think the Catholic doctors have gotten something right. So I have no idea where you are getting this claim that “it’s never my fault” for what I believe.