pro_universal's reasons for leavin the Catholic Church

[tequilamac]

He also dressed Adam too. And I personally think Adam was more at fault than Eve to be honest.

Did Adam and Eve create the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

I agree. I’ve never doubted this either.

Consequently, this raises a good point.

If sin does not exist in God and is incompatible with God, then how can God know about sin? Can God look upon sin? Can God even think about sin if sin does not exist in God and is incompatible with God?

Who made the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Who created the very thing that would eventually lead humanity to suffer death?

Did the tree of the knowledge of good and and evil serve any good purpose?

I tend to think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was ultimately created to be good. It was when man abused it that it became evil.

I’m serious too by the way.

Yes. And I’ve said that God is all-powerful because he is all-good. In other words, whatever he does it good-- and good is all-powerful. I’ve never disagreed with this point.

You both agree with me on this.

Saying that God is all-powerful because he can do anything is severely missing the point though. It’s fixating on the power and missing the good.

And it’s not much different that certain religious leaders in Jesus’s time saying that Christ couldn’t heal on the Sabbath and claiming that he sinned because of it.

God didn’t sin because he healed on the Sabbath. The people who were claiming that Jesus healing on the Sabbath was a sin were the ones who were sinning against God.

Have I said anything evil against God by saying that God cannot sin?

Think about it tequilamac.

Have I said anything evil against God?

So what are you saying? Apparently you are saying God created evil for He created the tree of good and evil. If God created evil than He is definately capable of committing evil.

Then you backpedal and say that the tree was created to be good but man made it evil when he abused it. Well, that is a nice way of rationalizing that you just said God created evil, except you have absolutely no authority to make the statement that God crated the tree good and man caused it to be evil. What is the theological or scriptural source for this assertion? If you cannot back that up, you are left with claiming God created evil.

Sin is the rejection of God. Bluntly. Can God know when He is rejected? I don’t know. I would have to reflect on that. Are you claiming God thinks about that which is evil? And if you are claiming that God thinks about evil, then you are saying evil is compatible with God which makes the entire life of Christ and Scriptures OT and NT a ridiculous futile exercise with which to pass the time.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Mr. Ex Nihilio:

This is why I warned you many posts back about arguing with someone like Pro on Catholicism. Pro has been catholic, has studied it, knows it and has left it. And as I told you before, he knows it better than you. His statements are right on the money here.

I disagree.

His claims, and yours too, have taken both Augustine’s and Aquinas’ theodicy for God to levels that far exceed what these Doctors actually claimed themselves.

Both you and pro are actually protraying sin in a way not much different than Maryanne Wiiliams’ Course in Miracles…

Man has created this illusionary World from “…false perceptions. It is born of error, and it has not left its source.” Because Man believes he is separated from God, through his own ego and mistaken beliefs, Man has created the reality in which he now finds himself.

“Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists. Herein lies the peace of God.”

“The effect of the ego’s belief in separation, which is its cause; the thought of separation given form; the world, being the expression of the belief in time and space, was not created by God… The World of separation reinforces the ego’s belief in sin and guilt, perpetuating the seeming existence of this world”

(Glossary-Index For A Course In Miracles, p. 168).

and again…

“I am affected only by my thoughts. It needs but this to let salvation come to all the world. For in this single thought is everyone released at last from fear.”

(A course in Miracles, The Foundation for Inner Peace, Huntington Station, N.Y. Lesson 228, p. 461.)

But I guess it’s two against one now.

So I hope you’re ready for a good debate tequilamac. I also hope you’re ready to defend your claims too. If you’re both fixated on God being all-powerful, then I don’t think either one of you understand what I’m actually trying to explain.

Who knows?

Maybe pro will actually start to reconsider his his thoughts on the Trinity when all as is said and done.

 

[tequilamac]

I disagree.

His claims, and yours too, have taken both Augustine’s and Aquinas’ theodicy for God to levels that far exceed what these Doctors actually claimed themselves.

Both you and pro are actually protraying sin in a way not much different than Maryanne Wiiliams’ Course in Miracles…

and again…

But I guess it’s two against one now.

So I hope you’re ready for a good debate tequilamac. I also hope you’re ready to defend your claims too. If you’re both fixated on God being all-powerful, then I don’t think either one of you understand what I’m actually trying to explain.

Who knows?

Maybe pro will actually start to reconsider his his thoughts on the Trinity when all as is said and done.

Why your earlier assertions on sin and God are false. This comes from St. Thomas redendering of a definition:

Since sin is a moral evil, it is necessary in the first place to determine what is meant by evil, and in particular by moral evil. Evil is defined by St. Thomas (De malo, 2:2) as a privation of form or order or due measure. In the physical order a thing is good in proportion as it possesses being. God alone is essentially being, and He alone is essentially and perfectly good. Everything else possesses but a limited being, and, in so far as it possesses being, it is good. When it has its due proportion of form and order and measure it is, in its own order and degree, good. Evil implies a deficiency in perfection, hence it cannot exist in God who is essentially and by nature good; it is found only in finite beings which, because of their origin from nothing, are subject to the privation of form or order or measure due them, and, through the opposition they encounter, are liable to an increase or decrease of the perfection they have: “for evil, in a large sense, may be described as the sum of opposition, which experience shows to exist in the universe, to the desires and needs of individuals; whence arises, among human beings at least, the suffering in which life abounds”

Moreover- the Council of Trent declared unequivocably that God is not the cause of moral evil, either directly or indirectly. His allowing or not impeding a person in sin does not imply culpability on God’s part.

so then obviously in your post on the tree of knowledge of good and evil, I can refute that God created evil.

Also, that which pro universal said about evil or sin not being a thing- again he is correct. God is essentially being. He is all good. Evil is not a thing. It is not a “being”. Evil or sin is an act of will in a created creature or a finite being. But evil or sin are not beings.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

So what are you saying? Apparently you are saying God created evil for He created the tree of good and evil. If God created evil than He is definately capable of committing evil.

No. I’m saying that everything God created was good.

I’ve been very clear about this poin too.

Remember when I said that God cannot sin?

However, I am questioning your claims that sin does not exist to God.

If you say that God cannot sin because sin does not exist for God (because God did not create it), then why did God make the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Did God not create this tree?

Remember…before you jump to conclusions about me…I specifically said that I tend to think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was ultimately created to be good. It was when man abused it that it became evil.

I’m serious too by the way.

Why do you think God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

If God created it, and if sin does not exist for God, then how can this tree be even partly evil?

The fact that God made the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the fact that this tree was actually the root of all sin, seems to strongly indicate that your position is wrong.

I think my posiiton is the correct Catholic position by the way.

tequilamac:

Then you backpedal and say that the tree was created to be good but man made it evil when he abused it. Well, that is a nice way of rationalizing that you just said God created evil, except you have absolutely no authority to make the statement that God crated the tree good and man caused it to be evil. What is the theological or scriptural source for this assertion? If you cannot back that up, you are left with claiming God created evil.

If a father places medicine in a cetain place and then tells their 18 year old to not take of them lest they will die, if the child disobeys their father and takes the medicine and dies, has the father done evil?

Didn’t the father have good intentions to use this medicine for good when their 18 year old was sick?

Does the behavior of the 18 year old disobeying their father make the father evil?

tequilamac:

Sin is the rejection of God. Bluntly. Can God know when He is rejected?

I personally do not think that God can even think about evil to be honest.

tequilamac:

I don’t know. I would have to reflect on that.

I think it is something that you should consider further before you join with pro and combat against me in this debate.

tequilamac:

Are you claiming God thinks about that which is evil?

No. I’m claiming that God cannot sin. I’ve been very clear about this from the beginning too.

Sin is the one thing that God cannot do.

tequilamac:

And if you are claiming that God thinks about evil, then you are saying evil is compatible with God which makes the entire life of Christ and Scriptures OT and NT a ridiculous futile exercise with which to pass the time.

No. God not being able to do sin, see sin, and even think about sin actually brings the Trinity into sharper focus and removes the contradicitons that so many people think abound with our Catholic doctrine.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Why your earlier assertions on sin and God are false. This comes from St. Thomas redendering of a definition:

Since sin is a moral evil, it is necessary in the first place to determine what is meant by evil, and in particular by moral evil. Evil is defined by St. Thomas (De malo, 2:2) as a privation of form or order or due measure. In the physical order a thing is good in proportion as it possesses being. God alone is essentially being, and He alone is essentially and perfectly good. Everything else possesses but a limited being, and, in so far as it possesses being, it is good. When it has its due proportion of form and order and measure it is, in its own order and degree, good. Evil implies a deficiency in perfection, hence it cannot exist in God who is essentially and by nature good; it is found only in finite beings which, because of their origin from nothing, are subject to the privation of form or order or measure due them, and, through the opposition they encounter, are liable to an increase or decrease of the perfection they have: “for evil, in a large sense, may be described as the sum of opposition, which experience shows to exist in the universe, to the desires and needs of individuals; whence arises, among human beings at least, the suffering in which life abounds”

Actually, I don’t disagree with anything quoted here…except perhaps your own words above this quote.

God alone is essentially being, and He alone is essentially and perfectly good.

Evil also implies a deficiency in perfection, hence it cannot exist in God who is essentially and by nature good.

When one takes this all to its logical conclusion, Aquinas states quite clearly that God cannot sin.

Is saying that God cannot sin such a bad thing?

 

[tequilamac]

We also have to remember why God created us and the trees and the universe. His purpose, His motive, His end is Himself. He did not create the universe or ourselves for our good, but His own.

Adam and Eve violated the order that is God. Evil is permitted by God with no cause for claiming God culpable or claiming God responsible but God only allows it because He is powerful enough to bring out good for Himself from the evil. One way or the other good will serve God and evil will as well. The Original Sin disordered. It put man in a place of power that did not belong properly to man but to God. God wills to restore all the universe and man to that correct order- complete trust, faith, and submission to God.

Because of this we can still say- God did not create evil because evil is assuming power away from God, incomplete trust and faith and submission to God and God cannot take power away from Himself, God cannot deny Himself, God cannot distrust Himself or not have faith in Himself. Therefore God cannot sin.

Because the creation of the universe was for God Himself, not for us and our own good, and we know that God can use either good or evil to accomplish His end, His end will be accomplished whether or not we commit evil. Therefore we can clearly state that our sins are not more powerful than God. We can still clearly state that God is all powerful.

 

[tequilamac]

Actually, I don’t disagree with anything quoted here…except perhaps your own words above this quote.

God alone is essentially being, and He alone is essentially and perfectly good.

Evil also implies a deficiency in perfection, hence it cannot exist in God who is essentially and by nature good.

When one takes this all to its logical conclusion, Aquinas states quite clearly that God cannot sin.

Is saying that God cannot sin such a bad thing?

then how do you reconcile your earlier discourse on the tree of knowledge of good and evil? You see the problem that I am having with you Mr. Ex Nihilio and I believe may also be pros objection to what you say as well, is in your answers, somehow you are conveying to us the idea that sin has more power and substance than it does. That some how sin has more reality than I think it really does. If God is the first and only real reality, than sin simply will not have much substance, will it? Yet, you seem to take sin to a level of power or significance that Aquinas and even Augustine are unwilling to go.

 

[tequilamac]

No. I’m saying that everything God created was good.

I’ve been very clear about this poin too.

Remember when I said that God cannot sin?

However, I am questioning your claims that sin does not exist to God.

If you say that God cannot sin because sin does not exist for God (because God did not create it), then why did God make the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Did God not create this tree?

Remember…before you jump to conclusions about me…I specifically said that I tend to think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was ultimately created to be good. It was when man abused it that it became evil.

I’m serious too by the way.

Why do you think God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

If God created it, and if sin does not exist for God, then how can this tree be even partly evil?

The fact that God made the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the fact that this tree was actually the root of all sin, seems to strongly indicate that your position is wrong.

I think my posiiton is the correct Catholic position by the way.

If a father places medicine in a cetain place and then tells their 18 year old to not take of them lest they will die, if the child disobeys their father and takes the medicine and dies, has the father done evil?

Didn’t the father have good intentions to use this medicine for good when their 18 year old was sick?

Does the behavior of the 18 year old disobeying their father make the father evil?

I personally do not think that God can even think about evil to be honest.

I think it is something that you should consider further before you join with pro and combat against me in this debate.

No. I’m claiming that God cannot sin. I’ve been very clear about this from the beginning too.

Sin is the one thing that God cannot do.

No. God not being able to do sin, see sin, and even think about sin actually brings the Trinity into sharper focus and removes the contradicitons that so many people think abound with our Catholic doctrine.

This is what you wrote in your post # 655.

"If you say that God cannot sin because sin does not exist for God (because God did not create it), then why did God make the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Did God not create this tree?" And

“If sin does not exist in God and is incompatible with God, then how can God know about sin? Can God look upon sin? Can God even think about sin if sin does not exist in God and is incompatible with God?”

Now which is it? which are you trying to put forth? Your two posts are contradictory.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Moreover- the Council of Trent declared unequivocably that God is not the cause of moral evil, either directly or indirectly. His allowing or not impeding a person in sin does not imply culpability on God’s part.

I don’t think God is the cause of moral evil, either directly or indirectly.

I’ve consistently held to the position that God cannot sin.

This means he can’t do a sinful thing. He can’t make someone else do a sinful thing. He can’t tempt people to do a sinful thing.

He can’t even look upon sinful thing. And he can’t even think about a sinful thing.

I don’t think I can get much clearer than this.

Whatever God does is good. It’s when people go against his good will that evil abounds. But God is not causing them to sin by doing good, not even indirectly. People are plain and simply doing evil by going against God’s good.

tequilamac:

so then obviously in your post on the tree of knowledge of good and evil, I can refute that God created evil.

Well…it does say that God created all things.

God did created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, didn’t he?

Remember…I don’t think that God created any evil whatsover.

So what do you think’s going on here?

tequilamac:

Also, that which pro universal said about evil or sin not being a thing- again he is correct. God is essentially being. He is all good. Evil is not a thing. It is not a “being”. Evil or sin is an act of will in a created creature or a finite being. But evil or sin are not beings.

I don’t think that evil is a ‘being’ either. Even the devil himself, although he is pure evil, is not, in essense, evil. The very ‘spirit’ which God made him from is still good even if his ‘intentions’ are purely evil.

But evil is nevertheless something. And if evil is indeed ‘nothing’, then that means Jesus died for ‘nothing’ too.

I don’t believe that Jesus died for nothing. I believe that the reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

This is what you wrote in your post # 655.

"If you say that God cannot sin because sin does not exist for God (because God did not create it), then why did God make the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Did God not create this tree?" And

“If sin does not exist in God and is incompatible with God, then how can God know about sin? Can God look upon sin? Can God even think about sin if sin does not exist in God and is incompatible with God?”

Now which is it? which are you trying to put forth? Your two posts are contradictory.

I’m saying that God cannot sin.

When God planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden, he ultimately had a good purpose for it. But when man disobeyed and partook in it, the tree became something that was evil.

Man transformed God’s good into something evil.

I don’t think I can get much clearer than this.

 

[tequilamac]

I don’t think God is the cause of moral evil, either directly or indirectly.

I’ve consistently held to the position that God cannot sin.

This means he can’t do a sinful thing. He can’t make someone else do a sinful thing. He can’t tempt people to do a sinful thing.

He can’t even look upon sinful thing. And he can’t even think about a sinful thing.

I don’t think I can get much clearer than this.

Whatever God does is good. It’s when people go against his good will that evil abounds. But God is not causing them to sin by doing good, not even indirectly. People are plain and simply doing evil by going against God’s good.

Well…it does say that God created all things.

God did created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, didn’t he?

Remember…I don’t think that God created any evil whatsover.

So what do you think’s going on here?

I don’t think that evil is a ‘being’ either. Even the devil himself, although he is pure evil, is not, in essense, evil. The very ‘spirit’ which God made him from is still good even if his ‘intentions’ are purely evil.

But evil is nevertheless something. And if evil is indeed ‘nothing’, then that means Jesus died for ‘nothing’ too.

I don’t believe that Jesus died for nothing. I believe that the reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

I’m sorry. I think we are going around in circles and I’m tired now and irritable. If you don’t mind, and will not be offended, I am going to give the forum a rest for a day or so or until I can think more clearly.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

I’m sorry. I think we are going around in circles and I’m tired now and irritable. If you don’t mind, and will not be offended, I am going to give the forum a rest for a day or so or until I can think more clearly.

ok.

But in the meantime think about this.

Can God even think an evil thought if God is all good?

And if God cannot think an evil thought, and if sin is nothing to God, then how does God know that sin exists?

Think about it.

 

[tequilamac]

ok.

But in the meantime think about this.

Can God even think an evil thought if God is all good?

And if God cannot think an evil thought, and if sin is nothing to God, then how does God know that sin exists?

Think about it.

We are discussing only one aspect of God. And even the one aspect of God is simply too much, too great for anyone of the three of us to assimilate or absorb in a short few day period. You and Pro may continue without me for a while.

I will think about it. Tomorrow maybe. All I can say on that right now is that I am not convinced that God knows sin exists. If He knows sin exists, it would only be through God the Son- Christ. He draws us constantly to Himself. We are the ones who do the rejecting. Now I’m going to fall asleep watching some mindless T.V. Goodnight.

 

[AlegreFe]

I just wanted to bump this with a reply so that I won’t see that “666” I’m not superstitious or anything just didn’t want to see that number.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

We are discussing only one aspect of God. And even the one aspect of God is simply too much, too great for anyone of the three of us to assimilate or absorb in a short few day period. You and Pro may continue without me for a while.

I will think about it. Tomorrow maybe. All I can say on that right now is that I am not convinced that God knows sin exists. If He knows sin exists, it would only be through God the Son- Christ. He draws us constantly to Himself. We are the ones who do the rejecting. Now I’m going to fall asleep watching some mindless T.V. Goodnight.

Fair enough.

But while you’re watching TV, ask you yourself how God can be all-knowing if sin does not exist to God?

I realize that both you and pro will probably again respond with the idea that sin is not a thing to God.

Very well.

But if that’s so, then how does God know that we’re sinful? Why would God be so concerned with humanity if he wasn’t aware of our sin? And why would God go to such great lengths to save us, even to dying on a cross, if God wasn’t even aware of our sin in the first place?

That’s something else to think about.

 

[inJESUS]

well in Ezekiel if not mistaken, God looks at humanity and sees all people sinful. When Cain killed Abel, God knew he commited a sin. There are thousands of examples like these. So God knows we are sinful and knows our sins .So God knows about sin but does not do it Himself because His nature cannot go against itself. My 2 cents

 

[tequilamac]

Fair enough.

But while you’re watching TV, ask you yourself how God can be all-knowing if sin does not exist to God?

I realize that both you and pro will probably again respond with the idea that sin is not a thing to God.

Very well.

But if that’s so, then how does God know that we’re sinful? Why would God be so concerned with humanity if he wasn’t aware of our sin? And why would God go to such great lengths to save us, even to dying on a cross, if God wasn’t even aware of our sin in the first place?

That’s something else to think about.

God’s concern according to Augustine and Aquinas:

Because the creation of the universe was for God Himself, not for us and our own good, and we know that God can use either good or evil to accomplish His end, His end will be accomplished whether or not we commit evil.

 

[pro_universal]

Straight from the horse’s mouth:

wsu.edu:8080/~wldciv/world_civ_reader/world_civ_reader_1/enchiridion.html

And in the universe, even that which is called evil, when it is regulated and put in its own place, only enhances our admiration of the good; for we enjoy and value the good more when we compare it with the evil. For the almighty God, who, as even the heathen acknowledge, has supreme power over all things, being Himself supremely good, would never permit the existence of anything evil among His works, if He were not so omnipotent and good that He can bring good even out of evil.** For what is that which we call evil but the absence of good? In the bodies of animals, disease and wounds mean nothing but the absence of health; for when a cure is effected, that does not mean that the evils which were present–namely, the diseases and wounds–go away from the body and dwell elsewhere: they altogether cease to exist; for the wound or disease is not a substance, (2) but a defect in the fleshly substance–the flesh itself being a substance, and therefore something good, of which those evils–that is, privations of the good which we call health–are accidents. (3) Just in the same way, what are called vices in the soul are nothing but privations of natural good. And when they are not transferred elsewhere: when they cease to exist in the healthy soul, they cannot exist anywhere else.**

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

well in Ezekiel if not mistaken, God looks at humanity and sees all people sinful. When Cain killed Abel, God knew he commited a sin. There are thousands of examples like these. So God knows we are sinful and knows our sins .So God knows about sin but does not do it Himself because His nature cannot go against itself. My 2 cents

I agree with you inJESUS. I know that God knows the good we need. You know that God knows the good we need. I’m just trying to get pro and tequilamac to explain it in a form that is logically consistent.

They’ve both made it very clear that sin is not a thing to God.

They’ve both made it very clear that sin does not exist to God.

They’ve both made it very clear that sin does not exist in God.

But if sin is not a thing to God, if sin does not exist to God, if sin does not exist in God, then how does God know about sin at all?

Explaining that evils are privations of the good (something I agree with by the way), doesn’t answer any of these questions.

Explaining that vices in the soul are nothing but privations of natural good (which is another thing I agree with by the way), doesn’t answer any of these questions.

Explaining that we know that God can use either good or evil to accomplish His end (which is yet another thing I agree with), and that His end will be accomplished whether or not we commit evil (which is yet another thing I agree with), doesn’t answer any of these questions either.

Simple question: If sin does not exist to God, then how does God know that sin exists?

It’s a valid question.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

God’s concern according to Augustine and Aquinas:

Because the creation of the universe was for God Himself, not for us and our own good, and we know that God can use either good or evil to accomplish His end, His end will be accomplished whether or not we commit evil.

But that’s not answering the questions at hand.

If God cannot think an evil thought, and if sin is nothing to God, then how does God know that sin exists?

If God cannot think an evil thought, and if sin is nothing to God, then how can God can use evil to accomplish His end?

If God cannot think an evil thought, and if sin is nothing to God, then how will His end be accomplished whether or not we commit evil.

Ask yourself how God can be all-knowing if sin does not exist to God?

If sin is not a thing to God, then how does God know that we’re sinful? Why would God be so concerned with humanity if he wasn’t aware of our sin? And why would God go to such great lengths to save us, even to dying on a cross, if God wasn’t even aware of our sin in the first place?

These are valid questions that need to be clearly answered if one is to claim to hold consistent ideas about God.