pro_universal's reasons for leavin the Catholic Church

[tequilamac]

What is amazing here is that bpeople are still charitable enough to argue with you. For my own part, when people tell me they are leaving the Church for this and that reason I wish them God Speed and don’t let the door hit them in the bum on the way out.

 

[Rolltide]

Since all Christian denominations believe in the Trinity, the only alternative is Islam.

But Islam also has a history of wars and intolerance.

How do you reach the conclusion that Islam is the only alternative? What about Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and of course, Judaism? (Mind you, I believe ALL of those to be flawed doctrines. The fullness of the truth is within the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, they would be other alternatives.)

 

[pro_universal]

How do you reach the conclusion that Islam is the only alternative? What about Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and of course, Judaism? (Mind you, I believe ALL of those to be flawed doctrines. The fullness of the truth is within the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, they would be other alternatives.)

Fine point, although I’m not interested in those other sects either.

Of all the incarnations of Christianity, the Catholic tradition (eastern and western) is clearly the flagship. It has an unmatched intellectual depth and a dignity in comparison to other spin offs and non-Christian but somewhat related groups like the Mormons.

I have great respect for Catholics and the Church. I just cannot believe that it is the whole truth, and I can’t separate the actions of its members from itself…its members are, if the teaching is true, imbibing the substance of God every week. As such, the behavior of Christians is crucial to evaluating claims about the Church’s divine inspirations in my mind.

I also just do not fundamentally accept licensing of God’s grace. JAlex, the difference with other religions is that another person’s touch or ceremony doesn’t grant any special power…you become an Imam by studying, and you are authoritative only insofar as you reproduce the religious teaching correctly.

Catholicism is fundamentally different. A person cannot have the full authority of God, no matter how much he knows, unless some other people (licensed by God) grant that authority in some form of ritual passing. Once a person has this authority, he supposedly transfers God’s grace regardless of his personal behavior and regardless of how far in error his teachings are.

Do you see the distinction I’m making there?

 

[Rolltide]

What is amazing here is that bpeople are still charitable enough to argue with you. For my own part, when people tell me they are leaving the Church for this and that reason I wish them God Speed and don’t let the door hit them in the bum on the way out.

That’s a very un-Christian remark. We, as a community, should never give up on someone who has lost their faith. We live our faith through our actions. If our actions are, “Good riddance, we don’t need you as a member”, how does that speak to our faith? Jesus talked to Samaritans, ate with tax collecters, and forgave prostitutes. People believed that He was on a fool’s errand, and yet it bore fruit. You could, instead, charitably direct him to other resources on Catholicism, civilly explain other postitions, and then extoll patience. It may take years, or it may never happen, but there are many lapsed Catholics that return to the Church. If the last voice he hears from the Church is as negative as your tone, how do you think that affects his odds of returning at some point in the future?

 

[Damascus]

I gave this a lot of thought last night. Is it the promise of a fleshy x-rated paradise that lures you?

If so, re-think your position. If you can accept a ludicrious promise of a paradise like that one, there is no way sensible thought will ever creep in.

 

[pro_universal]

I gave this a lot of thought last night. Is it the promise of a fleshy x-rated paradise that lures you?

If so, re-think your position. If you can accept a ludicrious promise of a paradise like that one, there is no way sensible thought will ever creep in.

Damascus, I didn’t thank you properly for your sincere and kind words.

Thank you for making your point the way you did. I think people like you are the best that Christianity has to offer, and I certainly do not mean to offend you by any of my critiques of the Church. I have great respect for it, but I just can’t honestly say I believe it anymore.

 

[Damascus]

Damascus, I didn’t thank you properly for your sincere and kind words.

Thank you for making your point the way you did. I think people like you are the best that Christianity has to offer, and I certainly do not mean to offend you by any of my critiques of the Church. I have great respect for it, but I just can’t honestly say I believe it anymore.

We can still be friends, and I will pray for you. If this is what you want, as sad to me as this is, I will not make you feel bad for your descision. I will have hope that we will both someday get to chat about all this in heaven.

Take care man.

 

[jAlex]

I also just do not fundamentally accept licensing of God’s grace. JAlex, the difference with other religions is that another person’s touch or ceremony doesn’t grant any special power…

Take Saul and David for example. Why would God ask a prophet to annoint them in order to become kings? Wasn’t easier just to proclame them kings and then everybody goes home and lives hapily ever after?

But this was not so… by performing this public ritual of annointing the king was confirmed before his people - in other words he was invested with authority in front of his people so that nobody will question his authority and think that it just assumend this authority by himself !

The same thing happens with the laying of hands at an ordination of a priest. This is to confirm before the others that he indeed is a priest and not a hack that decided all of a sudden to invest himself with authority. In a sense this is a way of bearing witness that the person ordained is not a fake priest.

When Paul converteed guess what happened first ?
He was told by Jesus to go and meet the other apostles in order to be confirmed before going out to preach & teach! He did not start preaching rigth after conversion!

you become an Imam by studying, and you are authoritative only insofar as you reproduce the religious teaching correctly.

And what authority decides wether he is correct in his teachings ? People power, popularity, good vibrations… ?

Catholicism is fundamentally different. A person cannot have the full authority of God, no matter how much he knows, unless some other people (licensed by God) grant that authority in some form of ritual passing.

God does not invest his authority based solely on knowledge. We are not gnostics. If you check the Scriptures God has the habit of investing authority in the humble more than in the learned… His apostles are an example of this - just think about Peter and Andrew for instance…

Laying of hands was a Jewish practice first of all, so - no - the Catholics did not came up with this out of the blue : Check this out :

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laying_on_of_hands

Once a person has this authority, he supposedly transfers God’s grace regardless of his personal behavior and regardless of how far in error his teachings are.

Do you see the distinction I’m making there?

I am pretty sure the priests are not ordained that easily. Besides, who can guarantee that he does not lapse into error after he was ordained ? I mean look at the Islamic Imams : can somebody bet he will not lapse in his teachings? Just look at all the dudes preaching hate towards the West. What is their good behaviour in that, I migth ask ?

Alex.

 

[Mickey]

The fact of the matter is, the trinity does not make sense to anyone who doesn’t already believe it. It is not a logical doctrine, and while I acknowledge that God is beyond understanding…this isn’t the case with the trinity. The trinity is easy to understand; it’s just contradictory, that’s what makes it so tough for outsiders to accept that it makes sense.

You ask what is the procession of the Holy Spirit? You tell me first what is the unbegottenness of the Father, and I will then explain to you the physiology of the generation of the Son, and the procession of the Spirit, and we shall both of us be stricken with madness for prying into the mystery of God.
St. Gregory the Theologian

 

[inJESUS]

Pro-universal is a Muslim…he showed all the characteristics of a Muslim mindset…keep explaing to him, but forget that he was a Christian.

 

[jAlex]

Pro-universal is a Muslim…he showed all the characteristics of a Muslim mindset…keep explaing to him, but forget that he was a Christian.

Well, Muslim or not, we’ll continue 'splaining things to him till he gets the cathechism and reads it for himself …

Hopefully there will be one less Muslim thinking we have no ideea what we believe in …

So let’s give him a run for his money …

Alex.

 

[lrs]

Listen, you are not going to convince anyone to be Catholic with this demeaning talk. You can always speak with wisdom with out in your face techniques. If I was questioning my faith beliefs in a honest and sincere light, I certainly would not want to run into some of the people on this forum. Obviously, God has brought pro universal to this point, respect the wisdom in that. Guide thru Love, you can speak the truth, BE GENTLE, it is much more effective.

Dear Pro Universal, transcend to the Love God has for you and pray for discernment. We are all at different places on different journeys. I will not judge you.
Please consider what I wrote 1/2 page back in blue.
Peace Lisa

 

[jAlex]

Ah… and here is a beautiful thing coming rigth from the horse’s mouth : a jewish website … so maybe some will stop thinking Catholics ™ are up to inventing stuff…

S’michah, the Concept

The meaning of the rite of s’michah begins to come into focus when examining the passage of Scripture, where, Moses was instructed to ordain, or commission, Yehoshua bin Nun (Joshua, son of Nun), to replace him as leader and G-d’s representative to the people.

He took Yehoshua and set him before Eleazar haKohen and before all the congregation. And he laid his hands on him and ordained him, just as HaShem commanded by the hand of Moshe.(Num 27:18-23)

The ordination described in the previous passage is apparently effected through a public ceremony, where Moses laid both hands upon Joshua’s head. The passage continues, describing the ceremony as actually transferring “some of Moses’ authority” to Joshua. By this act, Moses is identifying Joshua as the new leader, who is to be followed and obeyed, even as Moses had been. Essentially, Joshua is the new Moses

ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/beit_avanim_chaiot/Messiah101-LayingHands.htm

So here you you have it: the Tradition, Explanation and even the Scripture quote it is based on…
And they aint no Catholics…

Line, hook and sinker ! …

Alex.

 

[MugenOne]

Amen!

Pro-universal is a Muslim…he showed all the characteristics of a Muslim mindset…keep explaing to him, but forget that he was a Christian.

 

[Magicsilence]

Amen!

Faith, Charity and Hope should illuminate our lives.

I fall every day, so I am no one to be saying it, but the reactions to pro universal have been less than charitable.

Pro universal, you are, of course, entitled to believe what you will.

The warm welcome is always here.

I believe that ultimately, the search for Truth will lead you back to the Church.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[maurin]

Since all Christian denominations believe in the Trinity, the only alternative is Islam.

But Islam also has a history of wars and intolerance.

Oneness Pentacostals deny the Trinity. They are akin to Sabellians and Patripassionists or Modalists.

JW’s deny the the Divinity of Christ and are akin to the Arians. Neither do the JW’s believe in the eternity of the soul.

I have asked pro-universal to share his home church name on a different thread, but he has not yet done so, unless he has above and I missed it.

 

[HailMary]

My reasons are as follows:

1. I simply do not perceive the hand of God in the Church anymore. When I was younger and understood less about the Church’s teachings, I felt more connected to God than I have as an adult Catholic. Learning more about my Church and history left me feeling less spiritually connected to God.
2. The theology itself was something I could not honestly believe anymore. The fact of the matter is, the trinity does not make sense to anyone who doesn’t already believe it. It is not a logical doctrine, and while I acknowledge that God is beyond understanding…this isn’t the case with the trinity. The trinity is easy to understand; it’s just contradictory, that’s what makes it so tough for outsiders to accept that it makes sense.
3. The history of the Church does not seem to fit one that has the full truth of God. Too many wars, too many mistakes, and too much intolerance.
4. The structure looks like “spiritual licensing” to me. I do not agree that God limits his substance and distributes it to authorized persons only, on the basis of ritual transfer.
5. The behavior of the average Catholic is not remotely like anything a first century Jew would recognize as good and moral. I realize that times change, but it’s apparent to me that Christianity in general is simply debasing itself to the point that whatever morals rule the day, are the morals conveniently taught by Christianity.

There’s a short list.

Your perception is flawed. Do not base your decisions on emotions and feelings.

The trinity is not a puzzle, you don’t understand it and move on with life. it requires comtemplation and only God can give you that

The Church history has nothing to do with an infalliable doctrine. Wars, mistakes, etc are human errors.

Spiritual licensings? Moses set-up a judicial system, and likewise Jesus with this apostles. Its Tradition.

The behavior of the majority is no-way dependent on the sactity of the people. The “choosen people” were wretched and adored a Golden calf but that does not reflect on God and His plans for His Church.

 

[tequilamac]

That’s a very un-Christian remark. We, as a community, should never give up on someone who has lost their faith. We live our faith through our actions. If our actions are, “Good riddance, we don’t need you as a member”, how does that speak to our faith? Jesus talked to Samaritans, ate with tax collecters, and forgave prostitutes. People believed that He was on a fool’s errand, and yet it bore fruit. You could, instead, charitably direct him to other resources on Catholicism, civilly explain other postitions, and then extoll patience. It may take years, or it may never happen, but there are many lapsed Catholics that return to the Church. If the last voice he hears from the Church is as negative as your tone, how do you think that affects his odds of returning at some point in the future?

So you think he can stand before God and say hey your holiness I left the Church and did not return because tequilamac on the catholic answers forum acknowledged my free will? That’s a good one. He has free will. So did Judas. Did you see Jesus arguing with Judas? No. He told him basically go do what you have to do. Period. So I say to pro universal and all those like pro universal- god speed. Why argue with them? The more you argue, the more they sin until they are obstinate in it. Leave him alone and let him do what he has to do. He will either come to his sense or he won’t. It is silly to argue or try to persuade people to follow that which they do not want to be a part of. He has a brain. Let him use it. It is his choice. He is not out of control. He can choose to reject his current blasphemy and get on with the business of life as a catholic or continue to blaspheme. It is entirely his decision.

 

[Magicsilence]

So you think he can stand before God and say hey your holiness I left the Church and did not return because tequilamac on the catholic answers forum acknowledged my free will? That’s a good one. He has free will. So did Judas. Did you see Jesus arguing with Judas? No. He told him basically go do what you have to do. Period. So I say to pro universal and all those like pro universal- god speed. Why argue with them? The more you argue, the more they sin until they are obstinate in it. Leave him alone and let him do what he has to do. He will either come to his sense or he won’t. It is silly to argue or try to persuade people to follow that which they do not want to be a part of. He has a brain. Let him use it. It is his choice. He is not out of control. He can choose to reject his current blasphemy and get on with the business of life as a catholic or continue to blaspheme. It is entirely his decision.

Yes, it is.

But do you think you should be by the Church door shouting “See you in HELL!” or on your knees asking if anything you had done had offended him?

God wills ALL men to be saved.

 

[Damascus]

Yes, it is.

But do you think you should be by the Church door shouting “See you in HELL!” or on your knees asking if anything you had done had offended him?

God wills ALL men to be saved.

Agreed.

I have a question based on this illustration—

If pro universal converts to Islam (and ouch! you will need to get circumcised if you have not been!!)
And changes his mind- then will Islam ALLOW him to be an apostate without being at risk for a death scentence?

I really suppose it would matter depending on what country one lives in, but -
I would hope if pro universal does ever change his mind he can do so without fear- right?
I mean have you heard of any cases in the last hundred years where a Catholic who left had to worry about this?

Hey, just worried about him and his saftey- not trying to start up a argument on Islam does not do this! Outrage on my post…
I am serious.