pro_universal's reasons for leavin the Catholic Church

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Agreed.

I have a question based on this illustration—

If pro universal converts to Islam (and ouch! you will need to get circumcised if you have not been!!)
And changes his mind- then will Islam ALLOW him to be an apostate without being at risk for a death scentence?

I really suppose it would matter depending on what country one lives in, but -
I would hope if pro universal does ever change his mind he can do so without fear- right?
I mean have you heard of any cases in the last hundred years where a Catholic who left had to worry about this?:rolleyes:

Hey, just worried about him and his saftey- not trying to start up a argument on Islam does not do this! Outrage on my post…
I am serious.
Technically, in the U.S.A he could leave, and maybe European countries, but in Islamic countries, once youve converted, its Islam or death.

Just another reason as to why I don’t think we should be praising any part of Islam just because a small part of it isnt technically speaking wrong.

I digress. 🙂
 
Yes, it is.

But do you think you should be by the Church door shouting “See you in HELL!” or on your knees asking if anything you had done had offended him?

God wills ALL men to be saved.
do you always exaggerate to such an extent? It goes to calumny I believe. I do not think I told pro universal i would see him in hell. And no, I do not ask others to get on their knees to keep me attending Mass for my own good so why should I do that for pro universal? I believe in heaven and an eternal soul. Why should other people’s insults or kneeling effect what I do? You do not make any sense. I hope you do not remain in the Church only if people are down on their knees begging you to. How sad.
Yes, God wills all men to be saved. Unfortunately, we believe in a state called hell because not all men will to be saved. Obviously pro universal has willed to leave the Church. God did not will it, he did. If he returns fine, if not how sad. My kneeling won’t get him anywhere. One cannot force people to value their immortal soul. It is a decision pro universal must make. Either he values his soul or he does not. Free will you know.
 
Technically, in the U.S.A he could leave, and maybe European countries, but in Islamic countries, once youve converted, its Islam or death.

Just another reason as to why I don’t think we should be praising any part of Islam just because a small part of it isnt technically speaking wrong.

I digress. 🙂
Actually, I personally know of at least two Turks that converted to Orthodoxy inside of Turkey, and nothing happened to them, and that was years ago.
 
tequilamac gave me a good idea though. IF I get to blame him for something and the info he gives me here on CAF–

I am just hoping it will 1) work 2) hope he condones some fun filled sinning for me to get away with
 
tequilamac gave me a good idea though. IF I get to blame him for something and the info he gives me here on CAF–

I am just hoping it will 1) work 2) hope he condones some fun filled sinning for me to get away with
Go for it, bud. You seem like an adult and over 21 and fairly literate. If you want someone to treat you like a child and beg you to not sin, ask magic silence.
 
Actually, with this you are seizing on what I consider to be the best points about Catholicism, as a religion on its own and compared to the other Christian sects.

Unfortunately, belief in Jesus as your savior is a crucial part of the theology. As much as we’ve tried, there’s just no way to get around that fact…it’s possible it doesn’t matter, but it is clearly central to salvation. I ignored that when I was Catholic in order to speak out for the good in Islam on this board…and was swiftly corrected by a long list of posters.

Theological arguments aside, it’s clear that adherence to the doctrine matters to the community. Just look at some of the things people say to me here when I mention I’m not Catholic anymore, or if I dare say something good about Muslims.
If you are so open minded to Islam, even some very offensive verses from Quran didn’t mind you at all, why don’t you open your mind to Catholic teachings too ? It wouldn’t be so hard !
I personally really can’t accept Muhammad’s teachings. Many of his teachings are excellent and very tolerance, I appreciate it. But some of them are just against God’s nature, because one thing I believe, GOD IS LOVE.
Polygamy (with some restrictions), divorce (eventhough only for last effort), holy war, beating wives (eventhough only for last effort), for me is not what God intended when the first time He created Adam and Eve.

I have a cousin who is muslim since born. She graduated from an Islamic University and Islamic Law was her major. So, I think I get correct information about Islam from correct person.

If you think Islam is better than Catcholic, why don’t you challenge yourself to prove it ? Why did you give up on Catholic ?
 
The difference is that the history is juxtaposed. When Muslims had religious government, their society was the most tolerant of religious diversity of the two. When Christians had religious government, they fought endless wars over orthodoxy.
First of all, I suspect that this version of history is a little too kind to Islam. After all, the early history of Islam is a history of endless civil warfare (the fitnas–I forget how many there were). Islam only found peace by embracing the somewhat cynical Sunni doctrine that whoever could build the strongest power base was by definition that one Allah had chosen as the rightful caliph. Even then there were frequent Shi’a uprisings. And the greatest age of peace Islam ever knew was the (extremely despotic) heyday of the Abbasids, which lasted for about 200 years. That’s pretty impressive, I grant you. But the Abbasid regime was governed as much by Persian monarchical traditions as by shari’a, according to Marshall Hodgson. After the breakdown of the Abbasid empire, the history of Islam was one of endless warfare among various warlords. And Hodgson (who is extremely sympathetic to Islam) says that this resulted from the nature of Islam–the idea that Allah’s favor rested on no fixed institution but on whoever proved himself to be the better candidate for the job (generally by defeating all the others). Even the leadership of Sufi tariqahs was often determined this way. So I think your premise is highly dubious.
One society only found peace by giving up religious authority. The other found war by giving up religious authority. What does that tell you about the religions?
If you were right–which I don’t think you are–it would tell me what I already knew, that Islam sees divine favor in success and worldly power, while Christianity (as a whole) does not. Our way is the way of the Cross. We don’t do well with power. But human beings in general don’t do well with power. Which brings us back to your over-idealization of the Islamic record. If you haven’t read Hodgson’s three-volume *Venture of Islam, *I recommend that you do so. (I admit that I haven’t quite finished it myself–it’s long and heavy reading, but it’s well worth it.) Hodgson goes out of his way to be sympathetic to Islam, BTW.

Edwin

Well, that’s certainly a convenient explanation. It’s always possible, but I am not inclined to believe God’s plan is to have a form of “spiritual intellectual property” over his grace.

Religions that have creeds that anyone can repeat to repeat the truth are one thing. This is a religion where the actual blood of God can only be brought about by certain, licensed individuals. It is restrictive in a way that other faiths are not.

I disagree. The concept of holy war was once a moral teaching in Christianity; it has been discarded. The death penalty for heresy and apostasy was also once the moral teaching; it has been discarded. Officially blaming Jews for the murder of Jesus was once official teaching…it has been discarded. The idea that the Church commands all secular authority is also gone.

The Church’s program of action today is not something a medieval Catholic would recognize. I think it’s quite untrue to say that it hasn’t changed. The creeds are the same, sure…but the rules that come with them are so radically different I don’t see what’s the same sometimes.

With exceptions, the Church’s moral philosophy is very good. Instructions on how to live life modestly and encouragment to do so are excellent qualities of the Church’s teaching. I fully support it.

But I don’t think it possesses the full truth.

Thank you Alex, btw, for making this such an open and respectful discussion. I really appreciate it.
 
I have a cousin who is muslim since born. She graduated from an Islamic University and Islamic Law was her major. So, I think I get correct information about Islam from correct person.
whats this? another taqiyah?..
If you think Islam is better than Catcholic, why don’t you challenge yourself to prove it ? Why did you give up on Catholic ?
He never thought Catholic better than Islam because he is a muslim from the first place. 👍

You people have been fooled by this muslim liar aka pro_universal… 😃
 
First of all, I suspect that this version of history is a little too kind to Islam. After all, the early history of Islam is a history of endless civil warfare (the fitnas–I forget how many there were). Islam only found peace by embracing the somewhat cynical Sunni doctrine that whoever could build the strongest power base was by definition that one Allah had chosen as the rightful caliph. Even then there were frequent Shi’a uprisings.
These were themselves political disputes, and though it’s true these societies had problems with division and civil war, they were still able to function and develop economic and culturally. The comparison to the equivalent periods in the west shows us a society that destroyed most of the learning from its imperial past, and that was stuck in a rut of ragtag fiefdoms for centuries.
And the greatest age of peace Islam ever knew was the (extremely despotic) heyday of the Abbasids, which lasted for about 200 years. That’s pretty impressive, I grant you.
This is a good example of the way that Islam leads people to adapt to the times and find solutions to the problems of governance and civil society that incorporate Islamic teaching. Was it as good as a modern western european country in terms of rights and benefits? Of course not.

But given the limitations of the time, these systems were very good at providing something approaching social justice, and most importantly in today’s context, respecting differences within the religious tradition and defining the rights of religious minorities.
Hodgson (who is extremely sympathetic to Islam) says that this resulted from the nature of Islam–the idea that Allah’s favor rested on no fixed institution but on whoever proved himself to be the better candidate for the job (generally by defeating all the others).
Again, this is one example of the functionalism that Islam brought to the region.

I think perhaps I was not clear enough in my first post. By religious government, I did not mean any single fixed institution. I meant a government and society that recognize Islamic teaching as the organizing principle of the society, and that measure their achievements by the basic religious standards provided to them. In that respect, Islam has a history of adapting to the times to institute its principles, and it did so very well…without wiping out every other religion in its domain, and without having endless wars for orthodoxy.
If you were right–which I don’t think you are–it would tell me what I already knew, that Islam sees divine favor in success and worldly power, while Christianity (as a whole) does not.
This demonstrably not true, in that Muslims certainly: a) don’t recognize divine favor for the currently governing regimes in their holy lands and b) certainly did not accept the various colonial invasions, nor the mongol invasions, as a sign of divine favor.

It would be more true to say that Islam judges the legitimacy of a worldly power by its adherence to Islamic teachings, but does not demand that any specific entity hold power.

I think you are too hasty in your association of the current problems in the middle east with Islam and its tendencies. One key fact is that the rise of terrorism in the name of Islam is a recent phenomenon. It is literally about a half century old, and was not terribly active until the 1980’s. That is a powerful indicator that the practices of terrorists are more akin to a modern heresy within the tradition than a natural outgrowth.

In addition, you cite examples of violence which were in fact not religious in the way that violence in the Christian world has been decidedly religious. The ruthless quest for orthodoxy that finally tired Europe from any association between power and christianity has no parallel in the Islamic world.

Similarly, I think you do not focus the treatment of non-Muslims in Muslim lands in comparison to the Christian treatment of non-Muslims. It is good evidence that, despite the existence of political problems (as in any society), the Muslim tradition was not fanatically concerned with an absolutist Muslim vision. Forced conversion was not the rule, as it was for Christians. The Christian world has been so intolerant in its history that where it went and dominated for any period of time, there is almost no trace of a pre-Christian religion.
Our way is the way of the Cross. We don’t do well with power. But human beings in general don’t do well with power.
Thanks for the tip. I’d be happy to read it and will check it out.
 
Come on Pro universal!

You say you have to read it- the way of the cross?

I guess you fooled me too. I thought you were for real.
 
Come on Pro universal!

You say you have to read it- the way of the cross?

I guess you fooled me too. I thought you were for real.
Damascus,

Sorry about that, I cut his quote in half…he recommended a book called Venture of Islam, that’s what I was referring to.
 
Okay. I am sorry I missed that. I woke up early just to check in on you.

Hope all is well with you!
 
hmmm…
well pro… i read the reasons and in my opinion the best reason was the fact that you believe trinity is flawed, contradictory,etc… but people attacked you for other reasons which are somewhat personal i guess…

anyways i just want to say that religion is not a piece of cloth or hobby that you can just change or alter or whatever cause it makes you feel better (this is to everyone) either its the truth or its not… thats all

and good luck on your quest for the truth 🙂
 
These were themselves political disputes, and though it’s true these societies had problems with division and civil war, they were still able to function and develop economic and culturally. The comparison to the equivalent periods in the west shows us a society that destroyed most of the learning from its imperial past, and that was stuck in a rut of ragtag fiefdoms for centuries.

This is a good example of the way that Islam leads people to adapt to the times and find solutions to the problems of governance and civil society that incorporate Islamic teaching. Was it as good as a modern western european country in terms of rights and benefits? Of course not.

But given the limitations of the time, these systems were very good at providing something approaching social justice, and most importantly in today’s context, respecting differences within the religious tradition and defining the rights of religious minorities.

Again, this is one example of the functionalism that Islam brought to the region.

I think perhaps I was not clear enough in my first post. By religious government, I did not mean any single fixed institution. I meant a government and society that recognize Islamic teaching as the organizing principle of the society, and that measure their achievements by the basic religious standards provided to them. In that respect, Islam has a history of adapting to the times to institute its principles, and it did so very well…without wiping out every other religion in its domain, and without having endless wars for orthodoxy.

This demonstrably not true, in that Muslims certainly: a) don’t recognize divine favor for the currently governing regimes in their holy lands and b) certainly did not accept the various colonial invasions, nor the mongol invasions, as a sign of divine favor.

It would be more true to say that Islam judges the legitimacy of a worldly power by its adherence to Islamic teachings, but does not demand that any specific entity hold power.

I think you are too hasty in your association of the current problems in the middle east with Islam and its tendencies. One key fact is that the rise of terrorism in the name of Islam is a recent phenomenon. It is literally about a half century old, and was not terribly active until the 1980’s. That is a powerful indicator that the practices of terrorists are more akin to a modern heresy within the tradition than a natural outgrowth.

In addition, you cite examples of violence which were in fact not religious in the way that violence in the Christian world has been decidedly religious. The ruthless quest for orthodoxy that finally tired Europe from any association between power and christianity has no parallel in the Islamic world.

Similarly, I think you do not focus the treatment of non-Muslims in Muslim lands in comparison to the Christian treatment of non-Muslims. It is good evidence that, despite the existence of political problems (as in any society), the Muslim tradition was not fanatically concerned with an absolutist Muslim vision. Forced conversion was not the rule, as it was for Christians. The Christian world has been so intolerant in its history that where it went and dominated for any period of time, there is almost no trace of a pre-Christian religion.

Thanks for the tip. I’d be happy to read it and will check it out.
fact is pro universal you are a better muslim. you are more aware of the teachings of Islam, you have a glossy history of Islam, and you seem to be remarkably unaware of the teachings of Catholicism. I believe your thread by line is merely a red herring in your feeble attempt to undermine the Church. Terrorism by forum so to speak. what a terrible waste of time.
 
No religious wars within Islam? That’s interesting. Kharjites ring a bell? Sunni vs. Shia? Please…
 
These were themselves political disputes, and though it’s true these societies had problems with division and civil war, they were still able to function and develop economic and culturally. The comparison to the equivalent periods in the west shows us a society that destroyed most of the learning from its imperial past, and that was stuck in a rut of ragtag fiefdoms for centuries.
And this simply demonstrates that both societies had their ups and downs. Nothing more…

In your posts I see you tend to equate Christianity with the West
but you are missing one little detail - there is more to Christianity than the West. At the same time the West was decaying, the East was thriving economically and culturally under the Byzantine Empire. That was until they were wiped out by the moslems.

Nevertheless the West managed to mend its ways later…
But given the limitations of the time, these systems were very good at providing something approaching social justice, and most importantly in today’s context, respecting differences within the religious tradition and defining the rights of religious minorities.
To build an empire you first need peace at home - so logically they first take care of internal affairs, religious rights etc. Usually later, when these empires reach their golden age, things change and they often turn and persecute their religious minorities. It is true of both Islam and the West.
By religious government, I did not mean any single fixed institution. I meant a government and society that recognize Islamic teaching as the organizing principle of the society, and that measure their achievements by the basic religious standards provided to them.
In that respect, Islam has a history of adapting to the times to institute its principles, and it did so very well…without wiping out every other religion in its domain, and without having endless wars for orthodoxy.
Arguably, they did have wars for orthodoxy -

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia#History_of_Shi.27a-Sunni_relations

These wars in general do not surface when everything is going well in a society economically and culturally, but usually after major defeats or economic disasters. It was true then and it is true now; case in point : Iraq - when they were done shooting at American soldiers, the Sunni and Shia turned quickly against each other in a blink of an eye. Far from the perfect society!

I do not to say this doesn’t happen anywhere else, but you seem to look at an overly idealized Islamic society, which …does not exist simply because - humanly speaking - it’s not possible.
It would be more true to say that Islam judges the legitimacy of a worldly power by its adherence to Islamic teachings, but does not demand that any specific entity hold power.
Biased at best. There are probably as many Islamic teachings as there are Imams. Who’s to tell who has the right teachings?
I think you are too hasty in your association of the current problems in the middle east with Islam and its tendencies. One key fact is that the rise of terrorism in the name of Islam is a recent phenomenon. It is literally about a half century old, and was not terribly active until the 1980’s. That is a powerful indicator that the practices of terrorists are more akin to a modern heresy within the tradition than a natural outgrowth.
Agreed. It is probably a modern heresy. But what is frightening is that, while the West has its crazies, it is next to impossible for them to condone any kind of terrorism or suicide from Scriptures. Those who manage who pull such a feat are regarded at best as insane and if they stretch things too much they can be awarded a nice shirt with sleeves that tie behind the back…

Whereas an act as the one from Sept. 11 was met with joyful demonstrations throughout the whole islamic world. That was really morally wrong.

Now looking at your previous posts, and your tendency to say that a religion is not true because of a history of wrongs( wars, sins, etc.) it strikes me as odd when someone like you overlooks downright abominations committed at the present time in the name of Islam - suicide bombers blowing up grannies in shops and even killing their own kin inside Mosques like in Iraq - this tells volumes about their respect for their own faith.

For someone that looks at the behavior of a community’s members to decide whether it is the right faith or not, the above mentioned examples would be a BIG warning sign. That is if you are not biased toward Islam for some reason other than facts.

Alex
 
Reminder to all …
Try to be more civil vis a vis Pro. Some of the guys here are taking it too personal. It is just a debate…

Thanks,
Alex.
 
At the same time the West was decaying, the East was thriving economically and culturally under the Byzantine Empire. That was until they were wiped out by the moslems.
Two things: First, a major contributor to the fall of Byzantium was the fact that Latin Catholics sacked the city. They destroyed the government that had kept Constantinople together since the Roman Empire.

Second, Byzantium suffered under brutal and frighteningly fickle religious oppression. The iconoclast, monothelitist, and monophysite wars raged with instances of torture and mass execution the whole time of the empire’s existence. It was always a problem. And their treatment of Jews…well, the Jews cooperated even with the Pagan Persians against Byzantium.

Islam changed both of those problems.
That was a political war. They weren’t arguing over the Quran, or how to interpret it, or a requirement of God. They were arguing over whether or not one camp or another was the legitimate political heir to Muhammad’s rule.
These wars in general do not surface when everything is going … Far from the perfect society!
Absolutely agree, it’s a broken society. But look at the influences that have been most prevalent in the Arab world leading up to now…western colonization, Arab secular nationalism, and racial-(ie, fascist) socialism.
Whereas an act as the one from Sept. 11 was met with joyful demonstrations throughout the whole islamic world. That was really morally wrong.
Maybe in a few places, but widespread didn’t happen. I knew people who lived there at the time…they heard apologies and sympathy (in Kuwait, specifically).
For someone that looks at the behavior of a community’s members to decide whether it is the right faith or not, the above mentioned examples would be a BIG warning sign. That is if you are not biased toward Islam for some reason other than facts.
Well, they are a sign of the times, but they have to be compared to the entire world at the time in order to make any sense. A country with no economy can’t be faulted for not making life good for every citizen…there’s no material to do it. But in comparison, it might be pretty good to other places in the world.

Islam seems to have done very well at adapting to the times and still maintaining religious principle. Christianity did not do this well. That’s how I see it.
 
Go for it, bud. You seem like an adult and over 21 and fairly literate. If you want someone to treat you like a child and beg you to not sin, ask magic silence.
If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
 
If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Exactly Magic. So pro universal tells you he is walking away from the church and for some mysterious reason you want to argue with him. Why can’t you take the Gospel to heart here? Instead, you want to argue and persuade the guy to not do what he is doing. Very confusing Magic. Let him go in peace and if he returns let him return in peace. One cannot be forced to believe or to retain their faith or to be loyal. Leave him be.
 
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