Probability of Sin in the Garden

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thecone137

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I heard this arguement on a podcast, and wanted to get some thoughts:

**
It was possible that Adam and Eve could have chosen sin.

Any possibility leads to a probability of greater than zero.

Given an infinite amount of time, choosing sin in the Garden was guarenteed.**

I guess this is something like picking a black marble from a jar of 10 billion white marbles and one black marble. Statistically, that black marble will come up with enough time.
 
thecone137 said:
I heard this arguement on a podcast, and wanted to get some thoughts:

**
It was possible that Adam and Eve could have chosen sin.

Any possibility leads to a probability of greater than zero.

Given an infinite amount of time, choosing sin in the Garden was guarenteed.**

I guess this is something like picking a black marble from a jar of 10 billion white marbles and one black marble. Statistically, that black marble will come up with enough time.
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Free will does not admit of statistical analysis. Adam and Eve sinned through ignorance, Satan through malice. That is why Adam and Eve can be forgiven, while Satan can’t. It seems Adam’s sin was necessary given Satan’s temptation, because the only knowledge that could have saved him from sin was the very knowledge that was forbidden to him. This is perhaps part of what is meant in the liturgy of Holy Week that refers to the “necessary sin of Adam.” Satan’s original rebellion, on the other hand, was not necessary, but malicious. That is why hell is justified.
 
thecone137 said:
I guess this is something like picking a black marble from a jar of 10 billion white marbles and one black marble. Statistically, that black marble will come up with enough time.
Click to expand...
You’re not picking an action at random and then opening your hand to see whether it was a sin or not. Sin is actively searching through the jar and taking the black marble.
 
Love4All said:
That is why Adam and Eve can be forgiven, while Satan can’t.
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Er, not according to any Catholic theologian I’ve encountered. And, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: “It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable.”
Love4All said:
It seems Adam’s sin was necessary
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Adam was able not to sin. “Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray.”
 
aemcpa said:
You’re not picking an action at random and then opening your hand to see whether it was a sin or not. Sin is actively searching through the jar and taking the black marble.
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Exactly how do you define Sin in as it relates to intentionality, action, and consequence?
 
aspirant said:
Er, not according to any Catholic theologian I’ve encountered. And, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches: “It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable.”

Adam was able not to sin. “Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray.”
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I agree that Adam had the potential to avoid Sin, but he also had the potential to Sin. The arguement focuses on probability of an event amongst potentialities.

If you are saying it was possible to always Sin via free will, that would make an interesting counterpoint.
 
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grannymh:
Where in the world did that idea come from? :eek:

The idea that probability of an event greater than 0 will occur given an infinite amount of time. See my marbles example.
 
Love4All said:
Free will does not admit of statistical analysis. Adam and Eve sinned through ignorance, Satan through malice. That is why Adam and Eve can be forgiven, while Satan can’t. It seems Adam’s sin was necessary given Satan’s temptation, because the only knowledge that could have saved him from sin was the very knowledge that was forbidden to him. This is perhaps part of what is meant in the liturgy of Holy Week that refers to the “necessary sin of Adam.” Satan’s original rebellion, on the other hand, was not necessary, but malicious. That is why hell is justified.
Click to expand...
I guess I would have to ask how you are defining Sin.

Also, can Adam and Eve be held accountable for ignorance?
 
thecone137 said:
The idea that probability of an event greater than 0 will occur given an infinite amount of time. See my marbles example.
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I was going by this comment in your post 1.
“Given an infinite amount of time, choosing sin in the Garden was guarenteed.”

Sorry. Apparently, I was considering the historic reality in the Garden instead of probability. Thank you for clarifying.
Carry on.😃
 
thecone137 said:
I guess I would have to ask how you are defining Sin.

Also, can Adam and Eve be held accountable for ignorance?
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Sin is:

CCC said:
II. THE DEFINITION OF SIN

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as "an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law."121
1850 Sin is an offense against God: "Against you, you alone, have I sinned, and done that which is evil in your sight."122 Sin sets itself against God’s love for us and turns our hearts away from it. Like the first sin, it is disobedience, a revolt against God through the will to become "like gods,"123 knowing and determining good and evil. Sin is thus "love of oneself even to contempt of God."124 In this proud self- exaltation, sin is diametrically opposed to the obedience of Jesus, which achieves our salvation.125
1851 It is precisely in the Passion, when the mercy of Christ is about to vanquish it, that sin most clearly manifests its violence and its many forms: unbelief, murderous hatred, shunning and mockery by the leaders and the people, Pilate’s cowardice and the cruelty of the soldiers, Judas’ betrayal - so bitter to Jesus, Peter’s denial and the disciples’ flight. However, at the very hour of darkness, the hour of the prince of this world,126 the sacrifice of Christ secretly becomes the source from which the forgiveness of our sins will pour forth inexhaustibly.
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As such sin is not a probability problem. Sins are deliberate acts, not accidents.

Adam and Eve cannot claim ignorance. They were given a clear command. They deliberately chose to disobey it.
 
thecone137 said:
I heard this arguement on a podcast, and wanted to get some thoughts:

**
It was possible that Adam and Eve could have chosen sin.

Any possibility leads to a probability of greater than zero.

Given an infinite amount of time, choosing sin in the Garden was guarenteed.**

I guess this is something like picking a black marble from a jar of 10 billion white marbles and one black marble. Statistically, that black marble will come up with enough time.
Click to expand...
Dealing with it, maybe. As in coming to the inevitability of standing at the tree and hearing what was said by the serpent, but the eating of the fruit of the tree, no. The availability of something one shouldn’t do, or wouldn’t do, doesn’t guarantee that one would do it.
 
Love4All said:
Free will does not admit of statistical analysis. Adam and Eve sinned through ignorance, Satan through malice. That is why Adam and Eve can be forgiven, while Satan can’t. It seems Adam’s sin was necessary given Satan’s temptation, because the only knowledge that could have saved him from sin was the very knowledge that was forbidden to him. This is perhaps part of what is meant in the liturgy of Holy Week that refers to the “necessary sin of Adam.” Satan’s original rebellion, on the other hand, was not necessary, but malicious. That is why hell is justified.
Click to expand...
Where did satan’s maliciousness come from? I’m not arguing the point but just wondering why Adam was necessarily less culpable that satan, or why satan was apparently held to 100% accountability as if his knowledge should’ve been perfect.
 
davidv said:
Sin is:
As such sin is not a probability problem. Sins are deliberate acts, not accidents.

Adam and Eve cannot claim ignorance. They were given a clear command. They deliberately chose to disobey it.
Click to expand...
Their sin cannot have been of malice, since then it would be the Sin against the Holy Ghost and there would be no salvation for them, yet God promised to save them. Similarly, it could not have been of weakness, since there was no weakness in them; weakness was incurred as a result of their sin, not before. This leaves only ignorance. (All sins are either of weakness, against the Father, or ignorance, against the Son, or malice, against the Holy Ghost.)

And indeed, Adam and Eve were ignorant, of precisely the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That is what was forbidden them. Had they possessed it without concupiscence, they never would have sinned. And since they did not have concupiscence (essentially weakness, as already pointed out), it follows that they could not have possessed the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Lack of knowledge is ignorance, thus their sin was from ignorance.
 
fhansen said:
Where did satan’s maliciousness come from?
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From himself.
fhansen said:
I’m not arguing the point but just wondering why Adam was necessarily less culpable that satan, or why satan was apparently held to 100% accountability as if his knowledge should’ve been perfect.
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His knowledge was sufficient. An angel understands all the relevant consequences to any action it might perform. Adam, on the other hand, had no idea what the consequences of his sin were, apart from that he would certainly die. It is possible that he also doubted he would die, since the tempter said to them, “you surely shall not die.”

But Satan knew.
 
Love4All said:
Their sin cannot have been of malice, since then it would be the Sin against the Holy Ghost and there would be no salvation for them, yet God promised to save them. Similarly, it could not have been of weakness, since there was no weakness in them; weakness was incurred as a result of their sin, not before. This leaves only ignorance. (All sins are either of weakness, against the Father, or ignorance, against the Son, or malice, against the Holy Ghost.)

And indeed, Adam and Eve were ignorant, of precisely the Knowledge of Good and Evil. That is what was forbidden them. Had they possessed it without concupiscence, they never would have sinned. And since they did not have concupiscence (essentially weakness, as already pointed out), it follows that they could not have possessed the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Lack of knowledge is ignorance, thus their sin was from ignorance.
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They cannot claim ignorance. I believe the Church’s teaching is that the forbidden tree is a symbol of the ability to decide what is good and what is evil. This decision is God’s alone. They were tempted by satan’s lie and disobeyed with full knowledge that they were choosing to go against God’s will even though they were told the consequence, death.
 
D_Martin said:
Dealing with it, maybe. As in coming to the inevitability of standing at the tree and hearing what was said by the serpent, but the eating of the fruit of the tree, no. The availability of something one shouldn’t do, or wouldn’t do, doesn’t guarantee that one would do it.
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Given an infinite amount of time and lacking complete knowledge of all possible consequences, why not?

Pulling random marbles in a Jar…
 
davidv said:
They cannot claim ignorance. I believe the Church’s teaching is that the forbidden tree is a symbol of the ability to decide what is good and what is evil. This decision is God’s alone. They were tempted by satan’s lie and disobeyed with full knowledge that they were choosing to go against God’s will even though they were told the consequence, death.
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…Full knowledge… only God has full knowledge of everything , no?

Interestingly, how can one even grasp the concept of disobedience without eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

It seems as though, based off their limited knowledge, they were ignorant of the consequences.
 
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