Problem in my carmelite group

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Hi everyone,

I joined a group of Carmelites in my parish. We have a get together once a month. I started going because I’m a big fan of Therese of Lisieux, my best friend in heaven.
However, I do not like and do not agree with what I hear here and often come home feeling down and troubled in my faith. Here’s the biggest deal; last time it was told that God tests every true believer with a dark night of the soul, spiritual suffering, so that that soul will know it cannot do anything by itself but it has to trust on God alone. They also had a story about a woman who lost her baby child which was according to them a ‘test’ of God as well. Now i’d like to ask you, does this sound as ridiculous to you as it does to me. As i see it God will help us in our trials, God does not cause them for us. Yes this world is fallen, bad things can happen to us as long as we’re on this earth but God is our father, he does not test women by letting their children die
 
Why would that sound ridiculous to me? What would sound more ridiculous, is the belief that God doesn’t test us.
 
I would not say every person has a dark night, I think that’s for certain people.

God has an active and a passive will, we are “tested” (not in the sense of a math test, God knows us better than we know ourselves, but in the sense of how a metal is tested).
 
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Le_Bonvivant said:
They also had a story about a woman who lost her baby child which was according to them a ‘test’ of God as well. Now i’d like to ask you, does this sound as ridiculous to you as it does to me.
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Sounds ridiculous to me because it claims God was treating the baby as a means to an end and not an end in itself.
 
Are these things just being said by individuals, in general conversation? Or are they being taught in formation? If the latter, this is concerning.
 
I think it’s ridiculous to claim to know that the death of a baby was a test from God. It might have been, it might not. To claim to know for sure is totally over extending ones knowledge and powers of reason. I think people have a tendency to interpret God with human logic. God is supernatural, we cannot possibly understand God with perfect accuracy. This is one of the earliest lessons in the bible when Cain doesn’t understand why God doesn’t like his sacrifice and God basically tells him to do one.
 
Well, I think both viewpoints are valid and useful.

One can certainly think like you do – that God does not wish evil upon any of us – and indeed wants the best for each of us. That is a healthy viewpoint.

But it is also valid to think that we must empty ourselves entirely of anything that is not of God. Hence the need for a “purgation” or “dark night” as our spiritual father St. John of the Cross might describe.

In today’s world there are many evils – materialism, addiction to drugs/alcohol, inappropriate living, etc. that one might need to get away from…

I believe that God deals with different people in different ways. Some people may not really listen – and may need to be “tested” just in order to get their attention…

One last thing, though. And I’m writing this as much for you as for myself – as I have a little problem with this too sometimes. Remember the words of Jesus – “whomever wishes to follow me must take up his/her cross daily and follow”. Don’t be too afraid of trials. Your friend St. Therese was certainly no stranger to the cross… Many of the saints eventually came to love suffering, because (they felt) it brought them closer to Our Lord.

-john, ocds
 
Le_Bonvivant said:
last time it was told that God tests every true believer with a dark night of the soul, spiritual suffering, so that that soul will know it cannot do anything by itself but it has to trust on God alone.
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I would think that there are probably some people who already “get” this and maybe need God to “test” them or teach them a lesson in a totally different area.

It would be awful to be sitting around your whole life waiting for the “dark night of the soul” to show up and it never comes…would make one think maybe God didn’t think you were a true enough believer.

As for a deceased baby, I really think people other than the baby’s mom should just stop already putting religious interpretations onto that sort of experience. If the mom works through it and decides that somehow it was a test from God and that is how she herself is interpreting it and handling it, then fine…but if I’d just lost a baby or lost any close family member, the last thing I want is some outsider trying to tell me God is doing this for a test or whatever reason. I’d probably tell them to get out before I threw them out.
 
Le_Bonvivant said:
Hi everyone,

I joined a group of Carmelites in my parish. We have a get together once a month. I started going because I’m a big fan of Therese of Lisieux, my best friend in heaven.
However, I do not like and do not agree with what I hear here and often come home feeling down and troubled in my faith. Here’s the biggest deal; last time it was told that God tests every true believer with a dark night of the soul, spiritual suffering, so that that soul will know it cannot do anything by itself but it has to trust on God alone. They also had a story about a woman who lost her baby child which was according to them a ‘test’ of God as well. Now i’d like to ask you, does this sound as ridiculous to you as it does to me. As i see it God will help us in our trials, God does not cause them for us. Yes this world is fallen, bad things can happen to us as long as we’re on this earth but God is our father, he does not test women by letting their children die
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What reason would you say God would allow such hardships?
 
St. John of the Cross does not say that everyone goes through the Dark Night of the Soul. He says that it’s an advanced stage that some people go through.

Now, of course bad things happen to everyone, and God does use them to train us; and sometimes they have aspects of a dark night. Similarly, most people go through periods of spiritual “dryness”, and this also has some aspects of the stuff that happens in a dark night.

But “Dark Night of the Soul” is a technical term with a specific meaning, and he spends a good chunk of both The Ascent of Mount Carmel and its sequel, The Dark Night of the Soul, explaining that technical term.

Argh, argh, argh! I know, I’m being a bit snappish, but this is a really important point!

If you have any interest in this term and other technical terms used by St. John of the Cross, you have to read both of these two books, or at least The Ascent of Mount Carmel. You can’t just read the sequel and understand anything he’s going on about; you can’t just read the poem; and you certainly can’t just read the Cliffs Notes version from some presentation or college class.

(And actually, this is true of most great classics, spiritual or otherwise. I can’t tell you how many times I found out that the outline of a book given to me in class was practically a lie, or at least a serious misunderstanding. You have to read the book if you want to know what it says. You can’t go by a commentary of a commentary, either.)
 
Mintaka said:
St. John of the Cross does not say that everyone goes through the Dark Night of the Soul. He says that it’s an advanced stage that some people go through.
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I didn’t say he did. I’m familiar with St. John of the Cross. My post is referring to what the OP put in the original post, that is being said by the Carmelite group.

If you didn’t mean this to go directly to me (it’s set up as a reply to me right now), but just as a general reply to the thread, then that’s okay, but just letting you know I’m not only familiar with the term but I also started an entire thread in the recent past discussing the meaning of the term and its use, etc. so I’m not the audience for your speech.
 
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Hi,God is all Goodness,and everything good comes from God,just the opposite is all that is bad comes from satan and all evil.therefore even if their is evil in our lives God can use them and changes them for greater good and useses the evil circumstances or dark night of the soul to good,some thing marvelous.remember Its good for the soul.

Wisdom 2:24 but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his company experience it.

Wisdom 1:Do not invite death by the error of your life,or bring on destruction by the works of your hands;13 because God did not make death,and he does not delight in the death of the living.14 For he created all things so that they might exist;the generative forces of the world are wholesome,and there is no destructive poison in them,and the dominion of Hades is not on earth.
15 For righteousness is immortal.

1 Corinthians 10:13 No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 See, this alone I found, that God made human beings straightforward, but they have devised many schemes.
 
Obviously God allows evil-or else there’d be none. But the Church teaches that God can use the evil that He allows, without directly causing, to ultimately bring an even greater good out of it. At the same time to speak definitively about some such particular case, as if to know with certainty God’s purpose in it, is presumptuous.
 
Maybe look at it “in the little”.

Maybe some people in your group are inadvertently or unintentionally exaggerating the much talked about “DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL”.

But “take it down to the little”.

We know that living a holy life isn’t easy.
There are threats against us.
Difficulties in our work, family life, health, the health of friends.
There are difficulties in our spiritual life: dryness, lukewarmness, re-committing of sins that we thought we had overcome, etc.
We also know that our love for God should be self-less. It should ideally be pure: We should love God and do His will because and only because He is God and deserves all our love.
We also know that this purity in our love is very difficult to acquire. We have to “rectify” our intentions from time to time, weekly, daily, sometimes hourly and minute by minute.

We should love God for Who He is, not because of the feelings or “consolations” that God sometimes chooses to give and at other times doesn’t give us.

So there are undoubtedly times when we have to love God (and love others) when we don’t have any “feelings” at all…in this sense, our love is being “purified” (tested).

No big deal…so don’t worry about the ominous “DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL”, but instead just keep up your running conversation with God, asking Him to help you purify your intentions to love Him alone and for the right intentions (He is God vs. "because of the feelings I want or seek, or sometimes get).

God allows these “little” dry periods in order to help us “abandon” ourselves to His care even more, ridding us of our “self seeking” ways (the feelings we seek).

He wants to bring us ever closer to Him…and if the “feelings we seek” are getting in the way of that deeper unity…then don’t be surprised if He starts to take away those feelings, getting us to realize we don’t need them!

Hope this is relevant to your post.
 
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We almost lost one of our twin daughters when she was 9 months old, due to spinal meningitis. If someone had come up to me during or shortly after that with “a test from God” I would have ripped off their head and spit down their throat.

That may not be applicable to the OP, and I certainly understood theology better than Theology 101; but in a crisis, that is a hazardous road to travel for a speaker.
 
Each person is somewhere on their spiritual journey. If this commentary from the group is upsetting, it may simply be a signal that you are in a different place than the group. And it may be that at this point in time, the group does not fit you.

Which is not to say they are right or wrong (if none of them have a degree in theology, at times they can present things in a way that is not helpful - and even if the presenter doe have one, they may not present well).

It is more a question of whether at this time they are helpful to you on your journey. Reading certainly may be helpful to you; more from Therese, or more about her. It may also be helpful to find a spiritual director who is sensitive to where you are on the journey, and helpful to you specifically to move forward. You might ask your pastor if he has any recommendations, as many if not most pastors do not have time to do any extensive direction. That may require some payment, as often directors are paid for their time. and of course, not all directors fit all who may benefit from direction.

It may be that later the group would be helpful to you; but from your post, it sounds like either they may not be helpful because of how they present, or they are at a different point in their journey than you are.
 
What Carmelite Order are you involved with, Discalced Carmelites or O’Carm ?

I’m a Discalced Carmelite, Secular, OCDS

The first part was explained earlier that not everyone goes into the "Dark Night of the Soul,’ Many confused this with the “Dark Night of Sense,” or boredom, but they’re not the same.

Also, the group you’re discerning, should have a Spiritual Director, usually an OCD Friar, who gives a talk and will take questions.

That all being said, not all OCDS are equal. Some are not well organized and others are more into visiting shrines and such.

If your group does not have an OCD Friar as a spiritual director, I would take what they say with a grain of salt, but study the text of St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila, when you’re in formation.

Jim
 
otjm said:
It may be that later the group would be helpful to you; but from your post, it sounds like either they may not be helpful because of how they present, or they are at a different point in their journey than you are.
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I don’t think what they said is representative of a lay carmelite group!! Your bound to get that with anyone that’s self-righteous or hypocrite (I get that sort of thing a lot from radical protestants). Altogether a reflection of ignorance and inexperience.

Face the group with what was said here (tell them their thoughts are inadmissible in this case), confront them with their errors, that is what they need in this case.
 
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