Problem in my parish

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LongJohnSilver

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Dear CAF-members,

We have a problem in our parish that I would like to have some advice about. Please read the description of the situation carefully before posting. I’ll try to be as objectively as I can.

Our parish consists of some 120 active churchgoing people. We are lead by an older pastor who is retiring after this summer. After that we will have different pastors in a roulating system that serves several parishes in the area.
The pastor has two teams that help him run the parish. One handles the practical business, like the financial administration. The other one is called the pastoral council, and supports the pastor in things like Catechesis, Liturgy and Community building. I am part of this last group, as one of five members.

Over the last three years, we have had two masses each Sunday, one at 10:00 and one at 12:00. The first attracts about 100 churchgoers, the second about twenty.
Recent changes, due to the declining number of parishioners among other things, have caused us to move to only one Sunday Mass, starting next month. It’s the time of this mass that has become the problem.

The pastoral council has made a decision to have mass at 11:00 (so between the former two times of 10 and 12 AM) during the summer, to see how this works out. After the summer, we will evaluate and than make a decision as to what time we will have mass permanently on Sundays. We have some arguments for the time of 11:00, but I will get to that in a second.

This decision has encountered very strong opposition from a big group of parishioners, that is very heated and emotional. We knew that not everybody would be happy, but we did not expect them to be so angry and upset. People are urging us to change the time to 10:00 and there are even rumours of people who threaten to not come to mass anymore. The majority of these people, mayby around 40 to 50 people, are a big part of the core of the parish, the people who come to mass every Sunday and who do a lot of the voluntary work.
There is a smaller group of parishioners that would rather see an 11:00 AM mass, maybe between 15 and 20 (including me, to be clear). The rest of the parish does not care too much or has not give an opinion yet.

Of course we want to consider the opinion of this important group of parishioners. But we have a few arguments in favor of an 11:00 mass:
  • Our parish is a fusion of two parishes that moved on as one parish about five or six years ago. One of these parishes use to have mass at eleven (the other one at 09:30), and that was a well occupied mass with a lot of children. So 11:00 is not a completely new time.
  • Our parish has become part of a larger parish, so we are technically no longer a parish ourselves but a location within a bigger parish that contains nine churches or locations. The bishop of our diocese has done some recommendations regarding Sunday Mass, and one is that the locations should adjust their times of mass to each other, so they can serve more groups of people in the region. People who want to go early to mass can go to one location, people who want to go later can go to another. (For clarity, these locations are no more apart than a 15 minutes drive.) Since the location closest to us has mass at 10:00, it would be most logical for us to go to 11:00.
  • There is a small group of maybe ten or twelve parishioners that will have problems going to early mass. They are elderly or handicapped and need help with preparing for the day. This help does not arrive in time for them to make it to 10:00 Mass. One handicapped woman told us that she would not be able to go to church anymore if we had mass at 10:00.
The people in favor of 10:00 have one major argument and a few counter arguments to ours. Their major argument is that mass an hour later shortens their Sunday afternoon which they use for leasure time, family visits, etc. They say that it makes quite a difference to come home from church at either 12:00 or 13:00. It would also discourage people from drinking coffee after mass, since people with plans for the day would leave immediately after mass.

They counter our arguments with the following:
  • The fact that half of the parishioners were used to 11:00 is not relevant anymore, since they are all used to 10:00 for five years.
  • Bishops recommandations are important but why should we be ‘the good guy’? The other parish has not consulted us concerning their time at 10:00, why should we suffer by going to 11:00? Besides, the other location is rather different from ours (read: more liberal) and there are not many people in our location who would go happily to the other one. (I agree with this last statement.)
  • It is sad that some people can no longer come to mass, but we cannot ask 100 people to change just to serve 10 or less others. Also, there are elderly people in the 10:00 o’clock mass that are not able to go to the 11:00 mass, since they are in retirement homes and have their food served at twelve o’clock. (We have not verified this last statement yet, it could be true.)
 
Personally, I don’t care too much about their major argument about the shortening of the Sunday afternoon, but that is probably strictly personal. I rather have some more time before going to Mass. Their argument could be solid, but I cannot really empathize with it, since I don’t have the same experience.
I think their second counter argument shows that they have not yet realized that our parish is now part of a bigger whole and we need to learn to think that way. They are too much focussed on their ‘own’ church, although I wouldn’t go to the other location as well.
Their third argument is weak. Of course we can ask 100 people to change if that results in 10 more people being able to come to church. It seems to me that having an hour less leasure time is really a luxery problem compared to not being able to come to church at all.

In all honesty however, I think their arguments appear more solid to the regular parishioner. And I am not sure about changing the time when this causes so much trouble. I just received an email from a usually very reasonable woman who was pretty emotional about the whole thing. Is it wise to go on with a decision that not only hasn’t got the backup of the most important group in the parish, but might also result in more anger and unrest?

My questions to you are these: how do you weigh our arguments versus theirs? Do you think our arguments are valid enough to justify going against this group’s opinion? Are their arguments solid?

Then there is another thing that plays a role, in my opinion. The parish council, which exists now for only 2 or 3 years, will be forced to play a more important and authoritative role in the future, since our pastor retires and our location will be directed by an umbrella pastoral team which covers all nine location of our now big parish. But the council has not really established this authority yet, in my view. Already other parishioners are trying to gain more control of the everyday business of the church, and are nibbling on the responsibilities of the parish council.
It seems that this whole matter is also becoming a sort of power struggle between the parish council that has not really established itself yet, and an influential group of parishioners that seem to like to make their own decisions.

So, I would also like to hear your opinion on this. What can we do to avoid a struggle for power? What is wise?
We are having the three months experiment with 11:00 anyway. The question is what we should do after that? If you advice us to continue with the 11:00 mass, how do you propose we should communicate this in a charitable and honest way? And if you advice us to switch back to 10:00, how can we communicate this so that we do not lose too much of our, already not too big established, authority?

Thanks a lot, I appreciate all your imput, advice and prayer.
 
LongJohnSilver said:
The pastoral council has made a decision to have mass at 11:00 (so between the former two times of 10 and 12 AM) during the summer, to see how this works out. After the summer, we will evaluate and than make a decision as to what time we will have mass permanently on Sundays. We have some arguments for the time of 11:00, but I will get to that in a second.

This decision has encountered very strong opposition from a big group of parishioners, that is very heated and emotional. …)
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that seems a reasonable thing to try, around here shortened Mass schedules in the norm because a good chunk of our members are back up north working or retired.

you might want to remind people at the next parish meeting that all this emotion and drama may be wasted. When the team of priests or whoever is in charge of that parish cluster gets together you may find that all of those parishes may have their schedules changed because so much will depend on what they can do, transportation time and logistics and other factors entirely out of control of the parish council. If you are in leadership, since summer is supposed to be a trial, encourage any decision to be deferred until September and until you find how the parish administration is actually going to function then, meet your new priests etc.

My personal feeling is that especially if those allied ministries happen monstly on Sunday, then the volunteers who do them should have more of a say so. You might also gently remind them that in many places a parish with that small of an active congregation has been merged with another or closed all together, especially if there has been a combative uncooperative core group that is fighting the bishop all the time. Of course they already know this from past experience and that is part of what is behind the emotional response.

One thing not clear from OP, how well did the two parish communities merge into one at the last merger? are parishioners from both still active pew-goers, and involved in ministry? or did the people not happy with some aspect just quit. It sounds like your diocese is on a path or more mergers, which means “I’ll just take my missal and go elsewhere if I am not happy” is not going to work as a threat very much longer. Anything you can do to facilitate those two groups to work together more is to the good.
 
I’m not too sympathetic at all with those who profess to want to attend Mass to worship God but insist that it be all on their own terms.
Priorities? We’ll worship God as long as it doesn’t cut into football or cookouts or the beach?
Maybe I’m just old fashioned and don’t have my own priorities in order, such as worshiping God first and foremost, then ourselves.

But I’m optimistic that the parishioners will find time to worship God somewhere in their schedule.
 
Very interesting that these so-called “Catholics” state they will not go to Mass to worship God, if they don’t get their own way regarding Mass times.
 
If someone had to cook for the family, and cannot start around 11 o’clock, the lunch will be late. From the numbers (40-50 for the early start , 15-20 for the later) you may see that this is a more important factor than the laziness of the night owls.
 
I find it difficult to understand those who “need” that extra hour on Sunday. We go to church to worship God. I believe that a lot of those who are threatening not to attend Mass will be the losers; they also may come around and their complaints may fall by the wayside. We are supposed to be charitable christians.

My thoughts were the same as another–what about 10:30? Seems like a compromise. I know some elderly have difficulties but 10:30 should not interfere with lunch. And will give others an extra half hour for the afternoon. We always had sandwiches for lunch-how long do they take to make? Then again, some have their dinner meal a bit after noontime.🤷

I don’t envy you at all. To be on the receiving end of such animosity, especially in our church, isn’t very pleasant.

If you have to, keep the 11 and see how it goes.
 
It’s easy to criticize parishioners who balk at changing Mass times because we’re all of us supposed to be there for the Eucharist above all else, so it shouldn’t matter a whit what time Mass is said.

I get that, but people are creatures of habit, and while I’d like to think I’d be Okay if my parish eliminated my family’s Sunday Mass time, that I’d be able to re-arrange my family’s Sundays to accommodate the new schedule, in reality I think I’d be more than a little :knight2: .

To the OP, I feel for you.
 
GKCT said:
I find it difficult to understand those who “need” that extra hour on Sunday. We go to church to worship God. I believe that a lot of those who are threatening not to attend Mass will be the losers; they also may come around and their complaints may fall by the wayside. We are supposed to be charitable christians.

My thoughts were the same as another–what about 10:30? Seems like a compromise. I know some elderly have difficulties but 10:30 should not interfere with lunch. And will give others an extra half hour for the afternoon. We always had sandwiches for lunch-how long do they take to make? Then again, some have their dinner meal a bit after noontime.🤷

I don’t envy you at all. To be on the receiving end of such animosity, especially in our church, isn’t very pleasant.

If you have to, keep the 11 and see how it goes.
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I think the issue here is that there is a group of elderly parishoners from a retirement home, and the home serves lunch at 12:00. Not only does that schedule serve the institution, probably a significant number of them are diabetic and their medication schedules and lunch times are pretty well set in stone.
 
When the time for Mass at my parish was changed, a vote was taken. A few complained, but it was not a serious problem. Everyone knew it was fair. Majority rules.
 
Changing to 11:00 seems like a reasonable compromise to me. You’re not going to make everyone happy no matter what you do. And some folks will find an excuse to dial up the drama meter no matter what you do. So change to time to 11:00 and let the chips fall where they will.
 
Here’s my :twocents: - Majority rules.

If the 10:00 Mass was well attended and the 12:00 Mass sparsely attended, and you can now only have one Mass, it seems logical to offer the 10:00 Mass.
 
I dont think a straight forward vote is at all fair. I think you need to determin what are preferences and what are needs. Perhaps a simple survey of views and needs would be more appropriate coupled with a statement that a decision will be made on the basis of percieved needs and the availablity of the priests. I think you may be dealing with this issue too soon, unless you have already consulted the local clergy. Power games are very dangerous. You will need the clergy on your side and for it to be seen that that is the case and that your authority is legitimate in their eyes.
 
Listen to Puzzleannie. The Mass times will likely be adjusted at all or most of the locations as the new priests work out their travel schedules. The bishop is right to say that mass times should be staggered throughout the day, both for the convience of the priests who are travelling and to offer more options to the parishioners. One thing that struck me is how close these church locations are (15 minutes from one to the next). If that’s the case, I wouldn’t be at all suprised to hear that one or more of them are closed in the next year or so.
 
When I was a kid we used to fast before Communion, even from water, from midnight on. Our churches did not have air conditioning and our summer temperatures often exceeded 100 degrees.

Our last Sunday Mass (the High Mass) started at 0900.
Nobody griped.
 
Jim_Dandy said:
When the time for Mass at my parish was changed, a vote was taken. A few complained, but it was not a serious problem. Everyone knew it was fair. Majority rules.
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That’s what just happened in our parish. We only have one Mass on Sunday. It’s been at 10 a.m. for I don’t know how long. Some people were complaining that that was too early and they didn’t have time to get their kids ready – hmm, I had 3 kids and I always took them to 9:30 Mass when they were little so I don’t see what has changed in the last 20 years.

As an experiment, Mass was moved to 11 a.m. starting Easter Sunday. A vote was taken over the last month to see what people preferred. The majority voted to return to 10 a.m. so starting July 3, it’s back to 10 a.m.
 
roadsend said:
When I was a kid we used to fast before Communion, even from water, from midnight on. Our churches did not have air conditioning and our summer temperatures often exceeded 100 degrees.

Our last Sunday Mass (the High Mass) started at 0900.
Nobody griped.
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And there was no option to attend on Saturday evening. We had an 8 a.m. low Mass and a 10 a.m. sung Mass every Sunday. Of course by the time I was born the fast was 3 hours.
 
LongJohnSilver:

A precious gift recognized as such would hardly find complaints on how it is packaged
or the time of it’s delivery. The practiced flexibility,tolerance and charity of the Catholic should shine it’s brightest in the fraternal interactions of the community. If we are willing to wash each others feet, how more so to relinquish to our brethren, most importantly the elderly and ill, a convenient time for the celebration of the perfect gift.

Andy
 
Mrs_Sally said:
One thing that struck me is how close these church locations are (15 minutes from one to the next). If that’s the case, I wouldn’t be at all suprised to hear that one or more of them are closed in the next year or so.
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It depends on the population density. In our area (outer subs of Chicago) there are 6 churches within 20 minutes drive from my house. My son lives 10 miles closer to the city, and there is also six church in 10 minutes drive from his house. Each of this churches have over 3000 registered families.
 
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