Problem of Heaven

[1337m4n]

First off, I should warn everybody that the question I am about to pose caused me great mental and emotional torment and anguish, just thinking about it. I come here hoping for that to be resolved. However, if you are unable to resolve it, there is a chance that this question may torment you as well. I don’t mean to question the strength of anyone’s faith or imply that anyone “can’t handle it”, I just thought it would be safest if I gave a fair warning.

I call it the “Problem of Heaven”, although it’s quite different from the Problem of Hell.

The problem is this: Intuitively, we know that killing people is not only a sin, but is an injustice and a disservice to the victim. And when we sense that somebody’s life is in danger, we also know that the right thing to do is to save them.

But here’s the problem: If the person’s fate after death is an eternity of happiness in Heaven, aren’t you doing that person a favor by killing him/refusing to save his life? Isn’t sending him to an eternity of happiness and pleasure a GOOD thing from his point of view?

The problem is even worse when you take into account newly baptized children. Since they haven’t had time to commit sin yet, it seems like the moral thing to do would be to kill them immediately. If you allow them to live their lives there is a chance that they could sin and spend eternal torment in Hell. By killing them, you would of course be sacrificing your own chance at Heaven. But we are taught to make sacrifices for others. So let’s say 1 in 100 of the children will go on to commit mortal sin and be doomed to Hell unless you kill then. Thus by killing 100 newly baptized infants, you would be making a moral sacrifice: giving up your own chance at Heaven to give it to someone else.

Basically, that’s my problem. How can it be a bad thing to kill somebody if they ultimately benefit (by going to Heaven) from it? Why is murder “cruel”? Why is saving someone’s life an “act of kindness”?

Please tell me you can answer this, because it’s been tormenting me.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT IN ANY WAY ADVOCATING MURDER. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME, ETC

 

[andzy]

Just because it is good for my children to go to college, doesn’t mean I should get them through grade-school and high-school as soon as possible and put them in college when they’re 10. It might be good academically (if they’re gifted), but it will deprive a lot of their childhood.
Likewise, it is good to go to heaven, but if I kill a person for that reason, I will deprive them of all the earthly experience that God has intended them to go through during the time on earth.
More importantly, it is God’s decision about somebody’s life and what’s good for that person. Even in smaller things, we might think that something is a good thing for us (for example, to marry that girl or boy), but God has different idea of what’s better for us. God had a reason for people to be on earth, even if we don’t quite comprehend it.

 

[Tietjen]

Basically, that’s my problem. How can it be a bad thing to kill somebody if they ultimately benefit (by going to Heaven) from it?

Because you are breaking a commandment. “The end does not justify the means.” Besides, how do you know that they would go to Heaven? Only God can make that judgment.

Why is murder “cruel”?

First, because God says it is. Next, because it deprives life from an individual. That life is NOT another individual’s right to take. God is the author of life and therefore the only one with the right to take it.

Why is saving someone’s life an “act of kindness”?

Because when there is life, there is hope. What if the person that was allowed to die was not in a state of grace at death? Who is to say that had the person been spared he/she might have found that grace prior to death?

 

[CB_Catholic]

God has a plan for everything and everyone, and we finite human beings simply cannot comprehend the totality of that plan, nor can we know the mind of God. Our lives do not merely affect the present, they also affect the future. How do we know, for example, that the person who we killed wasn’t destined to father or mother a child that would bring great benefit to God or the world? Perhaps he or she was to be used as an instrument in someone else’s salvation, or become a great world leader who would help end the suffering of others?

And as to killing infants so they may go to heaven–when you kill them, you not only have eliminated them, you have also eliminated all the future generations that may issue from them. That is also another reason why abortion is so henious.

We do not live in isolation from each other–our actions don’t just affect us, they also affect others. Even our smallest, seemingly insignificant action can have a dramatic effect on someone else, and we may not know it.

So besides the obvious reasons not to kill that have already been stated by others, killing someone thwarts the Divine plan, it interferes with the Will of God. Only God has the right to determine when a person’s life should end, because only He knows the “big picture”.

 

[dranzal]

Your “problem” isn’t a problem at all, thank God!

Carolyn pretty much covered it.

You are right that people spend a great deal of energy/time/money/etc. trying to stay in this life as long as possible.

We should not try to “speed up” someone’s journey to heaven because we do not know the mind of God or the intricacies of His Plan. We can, however, rejoice on some level when someone dies, particularly little ones who have been baptized. They are absolutely pure. As a bereaved parent myself, this is my position. I have joy and parental pride that my son is a pure saint in heaven.

Other bereaved parents I know said they would give anything to trade places with their children. I said, “But they are in heaven! You would really ask your child to come back to an earthly life while you enjoy heaven?” Their response was, “Heck, I’d go anywhere if my child could come back.”

It is very very frustrating to be the only one to get why that is soo verrry selfish. I wouldn’t ask Gabriel to “come back” even if God was willing. The analogy I used was that earth was the Motel 6 and Heaven was the best suite in the Ritz Carlton. What kind of mom would I be if I asked my son currently residing happily in the Ritz, to trade places with me (currently residing in the Motel 6)? As a parent my goal for my son has been reached. His mission was accomplished in a very short 2 years.

Still, the parents persisted with the “but then they would at least get to live a nice long normal life.” :banghead:

They just don’t get it.

 

[Wandered_Off]

God has a plan for everything and everyone, and we finite human beings simply cannot comprehend the totality of that plan, nor can we know the mind of God.

So you’re saying there’s this grand plan we potentially can muck up with any action? I can derail the plan of the most powerful being ever? The poor guy must be constantly replanning every time someone does something. Does that pretty much rule out knowing the future?

Yeah, the problem 1337m4n brings up ends up being the Christian case for abortion. Why take the risk that someone ends up in Hell if you can possibly prevent it? Isn’t there too much at stake? Every person you see in Hell that you had a chance to prevent doesn’t make for a very Heavenly Heaven.

 

[dranzal]

So you’re saying there’s this grand plan we potentially can muck up with any action? I can derail the plan of the most powerful being ever? The poor guy must be constantly replanning every time someone does something. Does that pretty much rule out knowing the future?

Yeah, the problem 1337m4n brings up ends up being the Christian case for abortion. Why take the risk that someone ends up in Hell if you can possibly prevent it? Isn’t there too much at stake? Every person you see in Hell that you had a chance to prevent doesn’t make for a very Heavenly Heaven.

This is an excerpt from Peter Kreeft’s Heaven: The Heart’s Deepest Longing pages 172 and 173…

Roman 8:28, perhaps the most spectacularly astonishing verse in the Bible, is literally true for every cell in the Body of Christ: “All things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to His purpose.” Every atom in the quadrillion-mile universe and every “chance” event in its trillion-year history is deliberately and perfectly planned and controlled by God for the ultimate end of our good, our heavenly joy. Galaxies revolve and dinosaurs breed and rain falls and people fall in love and uncles smoke cheap cigars and people lose their jobs and we all die–all (that’s what it says, “all”) for our good, the finished product, God’s work of art, the Kingdom of Heaven. There’s nothing outside heaven except hell. Earth is not outside heaven; it is heaven’s workshop, heaven’s womb.
What about evil and suffering? If they are not merely illusions, as Buddhism and Christian Science teach, they too, though not created by God, become part of Providence’s perfect plan for our ultimate good. Augustine says, “God would not allow any evil to exist in his works unless his omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil.” (Enchiridion). The solution to the "problem of evil is time. It’s a fairy tale; and all God’s lovers live happily ever after.
This is not fantasy or mysticism or extravaganza; it’s the plain bare bones of Christianity. It’s not a philosophy, a piece of human speculation; it’s not even a theology, a human interpretation of divine revelation. It’s a divinely declared fact. To deny that everything, even evil, works for good is to deny at least one of three rock-bottom fundamentals that, when combined, make this conclusion inescapable: (I)God is all good, willing only our good; (2)God is all powerful, able to do whatever he wills; and (3)God is present now, doing his thing in all times and places. To deny any one of these is to deny that God is God. But to affirm all three is to affirm total providence, total heaven, total joy in the last analysis. Those are the only options.

So, no, we cannot “muck it up”. Anything that we do to try to muck it up is already included in the plan. God is all knowing. Period. This does not deny our free will.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Likewise, it is good to go to heaven, but if I kill a person for that reason, I will deprive them of all the earthly experience that God has intended them to go through during the time on earth.

what is a few decades of earthly experience compared to risking them ending up in the eternal fires of hell? logically, ensuring their way into heaven justifies killing them. such is the christian paradox.

the only trade off is, by doing so the murderer himself is committing an eternal suicide. is it worth it? nope.

 

[Wandered_Off]

So, no, we cannot “muck it up”. Anything that we do to try to muck it up is already included in the plan. God is all knowing. Period. This does not deny our free will.

Since my free will is not denied, could I freely choose to do something contrary to this plan?

 

[MH84]

what is a few decades of earthly experience compared to risking them ending up in the eternal fires of hell? logically, ensuring their way into heaven justifies killing them. such is the christian paradox.

the only trade off is, by doing so the murderer himself is committing an eternal suicide. is it worth it? nope.

Christian paradox? Isn’t it more of a paradox to believe God would create such a complex world, which in no way adds to His glory, and then not bother about it or look after it.

 

[MH84]

Since my free will is not denied, could I freely choose to do something contrary to this plan?

I think you could freely reject to follow God, but whatever action, thought or word you say, God already knows what has or will happen. God is outside all time, because I would think time only exists because the finite universe was created.

 

[dranzal]

Since my free will is not denied, could I freely choose to do something contrary to this plan?

You could try, but whatever you choose to do has already been written in His plan.

Time is a line. It exists as part of eternity. God is outside of the line of finite time. He views the whole thing at once. It is all present to Him. Yes, that would imply that As He breathed spirit into Adam, He knew He would humble Himself to become one of us and then sacrifice Himself in the ultimate act of unconditional love. As He formed Adam He already knew I would be sitting here typing this right now. He isn’t making me type it, yet it is part of His plan.

 

[AgnosTheist]

and here is a twist. in the bible god ordered the massacre of infants (along with everyone else) because their dads (amalekites) were evil doers.

and how do christians reconcile that with the idea of a loving god? its better to kill them now than let them grow up and become like their evil parents. its all about L O V E.

 

[MH84]

you have a Scripture reference to that?

 

[dranzal]

you have a Scripture reference to that?

There are numerous places in the OT where God acts in ways we do not fully understand.

A OT student has to make a choice. He can read individual accounts from the OT and conclude that God is rather bloodthirsty and cruel.

Or he can read the OT in the light of the NT with the help of the lens of the Church. The OT tells the story of Salvation History.

We must either trust that these things are part of His divine plan as He asks us to do, or decide not to trust Him.

Death, in itself, is not evil. It is a symptom of evil.

 

[mschrank]

Because you don’t know what God might want to do with that person’s life!

 

[AgnosTheist]

you have a Scripture reference to that?

1 Samuel 15:2-3

*"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. ‘Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ " *

so what was the reason for the genocide? was it for worshipping false gods? was it for rampant immorality? tell me, why do the infants have to die?

 

[mangy_dog]

First off, I should warn everybody that the question I am about to pose caused me great mental and emotional torment and anguish, just thinking about it. I come here hoping for that to be resolved. However, if you are unable to resolve it, there is a chance that this question may torment you as well. I don’t mean to question the strength of anyone’s faith or imply that anyone “can’t handle it”, I just thought it would be safest if I gave a fair warning.

I call it the “Problem of Heaven”, although it’s quite different from the Problem of Hell.

The problem is this: Intuitively, we know that killing people is not only a sin, but is an injustice and a disservice to the victim. And when we sense that somebody’s life is in danger, we also know that the right thing to do is to save them.

But here’s the problem: If the person’s fate after death is an eternity of happiness in Heaven, aren’t you doing that person a favor by killing him/refusing to save his life? Isn’t sending him to an eternity of happiness and pleasure a GOOD thing from his point of view?

The problem is even worse when you take into account newly baptized children. Since they haven’t had time to commit sin yet, it seems like the moral thing to do would be to kill them immediately. If you allow them to live their lives there is a chance that they could sin and spend eternal torment in Hell. By killing them, you would of course be sacrificing your own chance at Heaven. But we are taught to make sacrifices for others. So let’s say 1 in 100 of the children will go on to commit mortal sin and be doomed to Hell unless you kill then. Thus by killing 100 newly baptized infants, you would be making a moral sacrifice: giving up your own chance at Heaven to give it to someone else.

Basically, that’s my problem. How can it be a bad thing to kill somebody if they ultimately benefit (by going to Heaven) from it? Why is murder “cruel”? Why is saving someone’s life an “act of kindness”?

Please tell me you can answer this, because it’s been tormenting me.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT IN ANY WAY ADVOCATING MURDER. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME, ETC

First things first…God the Father is particularly and exclusively qualified to fill the job description which carries His title, God. He has the absolute power to do anything in accord to His Perfect Will. God creates each individual with (among other things) free will, a mission in life and a purpose for living.
While God does know the myriad of outcomes and contigencies resulting from our decisions and while God is ever so gentle in directing men’s heart towards the greater good…He will not violate the free will of man. Example: God directs a good thing, the conception of a child in a woman’s womb. God is creating this child and has a purpose and a mission for this child. God already knows all the possible contingencies in the life of this child and its mother. The mother decides that this child, at this time in her life, is going to be an obstacle to her career goals, lifestyle whatever. She voluntarily aborts the child thru her own free will. God doesn’t turn around and kill her for doing this and further, allows her to live a full life to a point where she will have an opportunity to repent from this horrible sin and thus have an chance at redemption. And God sees that possible future for her because He is Love. Along comes “Joe Shmoe” and infuriated by her decision to abort this child, takes it upon himself to take the life of this woman. Do you see the vicious circle? Joe will likely have the same opportunity to repent of his horrible sin. Because God is Love and only He is qualified to give & take life, only He has a viable plan, only God the Father know best.
Among the millions of abortions thru the years, there has had to have been at least one that was to be the medical genius to come up with the cure for AIDS, Cancer, MS etc etc. At least a few thousand that would’ve been priests. The list goes on and on. I don’t want to make this message too long. You (hopefully) get the idea. When one human being willfully kills another under the pretense of “the lesser of two evils”…it is still an evil decision without merit depriving the victim of life purpose, mission accomplishment and most importantly the chance to love and serve the Lord and be a witness onto others.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Wandered_Off]

A OT student has to make a choice. He can read individual accounts from the OT and conclude that God is rather bloodthirsty and cruel.

Or he can read the OT in the light of the NT with the help of the lens of the Church. The OT tells the story of Salvation History.

Or he can conclude that the Bronze-age tribesmen who wrote it were projecting their own warrior culture onto God.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please do not take threads off topic. I will close threads that are hijacked. Thank you all.