Problem of Heaven

[w_stewart]

what is a few decades of earthly experience compared to risking them ending up in the eternal fires of hell? logically, ensuring their way into heaven justifies killing them. such is the christian paradox.

the only trade off is, by doing so the murderer himself is committing an eternal suicide. is it worth it? nope.

The purpose of the potter in making a pot is not to break it. He makes pot in line with his view that this pot can be useful to him.

In the same manner, God does not create man to send him to eternal perdition. God creates man because he has purpose for that man.

 

[Evan]

The problem is even worse when you take into account newly baptized children. Since they haven’t had time to commit sin yet, it seems like the moral thing to do would be to kill them immediately. If you allow them to live their lives there is a chance that they could sin and spend eternal torment in Hell. By killing them, you would of course be sacrificing your own chance at Heaven.

The newly baptized are indeed heaven bound, but with only a small capacity to love and small capacity for happiness. We do not want to deprive these children the possibility of greater happiness in heaven just because we know they are bound for heaven.

As you grow in the faith and in life, your capacity to love others grows. As you grow in faith and love, you become more godlike. And in heaven you will be able to filled with greater love and happiness.

I remember Sr Norine (sp?) in 8th grade telling us about God’s love. When we are small our soul is like a thimble. If we died and went to heaven we would be filled with happiness and love. But if we live, and grow our soul becomes like that of an ocean tanker. It too can be filled with love and happiness. But much more than when we were children.

In heaven we are completely happy, full of love. But we are limited, not by God’s generosity but by our capacity to receive His gifts.

So, you and I must spend this life expanding our capacity to love by loving others, family, friends, aquantences, the poor, enemies, and the stranger at our door and around the world. But most of all, we must grow in our love of God.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

God has a purpose for each life. To end someone’s life prematurely before God’s appointment time for that person is to thwart God’s Will.

The notion that Heaven is wonderful and the World is the pits is Gnosticism. Gnosticism is a heresy for a reason. New Advent probably has some information on what Gnosticism is. Yep, here it is: Gnosticism

The most important consideration however is that we are not gifted with the ability to judge the heart of another person. No one among us may know if another person is saved. No one among us may know if another person is destined for Heaven.

For this reason, we are forbidden to murder. Killing someone due to legitimate self-defence or Just War are not murder.

 

[Neithan]

Basically, that’s my problem. How can it be a bad thing to kill somebody if they ultimately benefit (by going to Heaven) from it? Why is murder “cruel”? Why is saving someone’s life an “act of kindness”?

I think the simplest answer to your question is: Merit. By murdering someone, you are doing them - and God - a grave injustice by depriving them of further opportunities to merit glory in heaven.
By saving a person’s life, you are either preserving their opportunity to enter grace (if they are in mortal sin) or their opportunity to merit glory (if they are in a state of grace). You might say that you would also possibly be allowing them an opportunity to *fall *from grace, but that is between them and God. Murder is still a grave sin and saving a life is still virtuous, regardless.

Baptised infants and children who die will certainly enjoy the beatific vision, but they will [likely] have a lesser share of divine glory than those of great saints who lived long and virtuous lives on earth.

 

[cpayne]

First off, I should warn everybody that the question I am about to pose caused me great mental and emotional torment and anguish, just thinking about it. I come here hoping for that to be resolved. However, if you are unable to resolve it, there is a chance that this question may torment you as well. I don’t mean to question the strength of anyone’s faith or imply that anyone “can’t handle it”, I just thought it would be safest if I gave a fair warning.

I call it the “Problem of Heaven”, although it’s quite different from the Problem of Hell.

The problem is this: Intuitively, we know that killing people is not only a sin, but is an injustice and a disservice to the victim. And when we sense that somebody’s life is in danger, we also know that the right thing to do is to save them.

But here’s the problem: If the person’s fate after death is an eternity of happiness in Heaven, aren’t you doing that person a favor by killing him/refusing to save his life? Isn’t sending him to an eternity of happiness and pleasure a GOOD thing from his point of view?

The problem is even worse when you take into account newly baptized children. Since they haven’t had time to commit sin yet, it seems like the moral thing to do would be to kill them immediately. If you allow them to live their lives there is a chance that they could sin and spend eternal torment in Hell. By killing them, you would of course be sacrificing your own chance at Heaven. But we are taught to make sacrifices for others. So let’s say 1 in 100 of the children will go on to commit mortal sin and be doomed to Hell unless you kill then. Thus by killing 100 newly baptized infants, you would be making a moral sacrifice: giving up your own chance at Heaven to give it to someone else.

Basically, that’s my problem. How can it be a bad thing to kill somebody if they ultimately benefit (by going to Heaven) from it? Why is murder “cruel”? Why is saving someone’s life an “act of kindness”?

Please tell me you can answer this, because it’s been tormenting me.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT IN ANY WAY ADVOCATING MURDER. DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME, ETC

I don’t think anyone else has mentioned this, but I may have missed it: The life we have is itself an intrinsic good and a gift from God. Killing anyone, but especially an infant, deprives that person of this intrinsic good and divine gift.

 

[fear_n0_evil]

If Heaven were only a place of bliss in the clouds you may have a point. It would be better to leave this world for that one. But is this the Christian definition of Heaven?
Jesus said His Kingdom that has come into this world is not of this world. It is a Kingdom of Heaven. It is true that this world has not yet been perfected, but isn’t that what the Spirit of God is working though us to establish? To multiply and subdue the earth? That was the directive given to Adam in Genesis, which of course he fumbled and fell. Then God righted the wrongs of the world by sending His only begotten Son so that all who believed shall all have everlasting life. And again commanded us to continue the mission of multiplying and subdueing … St. Matthew 28, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Jesus says He is with us so He must be with us now as he will be at the resurrection. The Eucharist goes in us at every communion. I don’t think we are only tasting Heaven, I think are to participate in it.
Sorry for rambling but if heaven is only a place where dead people go, wouldn’t that negate the very purpose of this existance?

 

[Son_of_a_Son]

With that thought process why limit it to just newly baptized children, what about adults who are new converts to the faith, should they be executed immediately so they don’t/can’t sin again? What about somebody who just came out of confession and completed their penance, should they be executed because they are free of sin at that point? Where does it stop? Furthermore is our judgment accurate since we don’t know the state of “their” heart?

We are not equals to God and by saying who is eligible, when they are eligible and why they are eligible for either heaven or hell is saying we are equal. The same goes for the other hand, a woman who wants to get pregnant and can’t, is it right for her to use in vitro fertilization and decide who, when and where a life can be brought into this world? Only God, who is the creator of life, has the authority to give or take life at anytime. Anything we do as an intervention either way is saying that we are equal to God. Just because “I want” doesn’t mean it’s what God wants, we are to follow His will.

Trading a sole for a sole isn’t an equal equation. What if anything has been gained for the Kingdom of Heaven in that scenario? There are enough lost soles on this earth that God probably would prefer our efforts be concentrated on them and bring them into unity with Jesus. Think of the number of soles one can possibly enlighten to the faith in a life time and that’s always plus one, the one being your sole too.

I don’t mean to come off harsh, I pray that God will give you the grace to receive comfort in this matter and release the mental and emotional torment and anguish.

 

[frnate]

We don’t do it because we follow God’s example. I think He doesn’t do it because it would be tantamount to simply eliminating free will altogether. Thus eliminating our whole reason for existence, relationship with Him.

If this was the thing to do, He would have killed Adam and Eve before they could sin.

My :twocents:

Peace,
+N