Problem of innocent suffering

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ATeNumquam

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So, while visiting my sister & bro. in law this past week, I got into a discussion with my bro. in law about belief, God, etc.He WAS a practising Christian a long time ago but is now agnostic.

One of his main problems is suffering - why does God allow it - but he has a specific problem with the suffering of the totally innocent, such as when a young child is abducted and tortured, or abused sexually over a long period. How can God allow this, he asks.

The evil is from the abducter, not God of course, but how do I talk about a situation like this that doesn’t make God out to be uncaring about the child’s fate - and without sounding glib?

I am off to bed (LATE Friday night here) but will respond tomorrow if anyone wants to discuss this. Meanwhile, any help would be gratefully received. No doubt this has been asked 100s of times:o.
 
I think it’s very illuminating to consider (and have your BIL consider) what the alternative should be. If God should not allow suffering, what would the world look like? It’s a very revealing exercise.
 
Innocent people are allowed to suffer because humans have free will and fallen natures,We are free to do evil to one another,but commanded to love,show mercy,and do good.There is a continual wrestling between God’s will and man’s will to sin and do evil. People who suffer can be goaded to prayer,to forgiveness,and desire for God,and dependency upon God. People who are suffering also present a test for others to put into practice “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” and “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Suffering forces us to believe,to have faith,to pray,to become dependent upon God. The more dependent on God we become,the more we transcend our suffering and are not spiritually defeated by it,but God subdues it for us. There is no evil that is done to us that we cannot forgive and transcend if we pray to God for help.
 
One of his main problems is suffering - why does God allow it - but he has a specific problem with the suffering of the totally innocent, such as when a young child is abducted and tortured, or abused sexually over a long period. How can God allow this, he asks.
One problem is our perspective. I feel we consider this earthly life far more important than our eternal life. God repeatedly tells us to offer up our suffering to Him, pick up our cross and follow Him, He will lighten our load. Do we really hear, understand and trust Him? Take the worst suffering you can imagine, do we curse God for it ? Or do we offer it up to Him and trust in His mercy? What does God tell us by the story of Job? By Matthew chapter 5? If I can take the worst suffering this evil world can dish out, and; not in spite of it, but because of it, trust in my God, and His mercy, that’s His message. I had a really difficult time at the funeral of my father, everyone was so sad, why? Didn’t they know he was with God? Didn’t they trust in the Word of God? Why be sad? Of course we’re sad because of our earthly lives.
 
Here is an answer I gave in another forum, slightly revised

Apart from evil that arises out of fallen human nature, we should recall that when man fell, nature itself was affected. Whereas before it was perfect, nature also became fallen:
I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God; for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. (Romans 8:18-25)
This is where diseases and natural disasters, as well as decay and death itself come from. Thus it will be with us until the Second Coming when there will be a new heavens and a new earth (Revelation 21).

One way to look at it is this. It is indisputable by everyone (except maybe Buddhists, who think it’s an illusion) that there is suffering going on in this world. And it’s a given that at some time in our lives, most of us will undergo some type of suffering. Many religions and philosophies have tried to answer the question of why there is suffering in the world with answers ranging from the Buddhist approach, to the atheist, who says there is no purpose or meaning in anything, including suffering.

To me, the Catholic Church has the only comprehensive (as well as rational and biblical) approach to this in her teaching on redemptive suffering.

Basically the Church teaches that the unavoidable suffering in our lives (our particular “crosses”) can be transformed by Christ and joined with his own sufferings on the Cross toward the salvation of others. This is what is meant when Catholics have traditionally “offered it up.” This is based most explicitly on Paul’s mysterious words in Colossians 1:24: “I complete in my body the sufferings that are lacking in the sufferings of Christ.”

This is not to say that Christ’s death on the Cross was in any way insufficient (it wasn’t). But it does say that when Christ tells us we must pick up our cross and follow him, there is a purpose and a meaning behind that suffering, and that it is not mindless or in vain.

Some pertinent Catechism references are:
307 To human beings God even gives the power of freely sharing in his providence by entrusting them with the responsibility of “subduing” the earth and having dominion over it. God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors. Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings. They then fully become “God’s fellow workers” and co-workers for his kingdom.
618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men”. But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men. He calls his disciples to “take up [their] cross and follow [him]”, for “Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps.” In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.
*Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven. *[St. Rose of Lima]
1508 The Holy Spirit gives to some a special charism of healing so as to make manifest the power of the grace of the risen Lord. But even the most intense prayers do not always obtain the healing of all illnesses. Thus St. Paul must learn from the Lord that “my grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness,” and that the sufferings to be endured can mean that “in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his Body, that is, the Church.”
I couldn’t possibly do justice to the sublimnity of this teaching, but here is an article which may help you:

rosary-center.org/ll49n2.htm
 
The evil is from the abducter, not God of course, but how do I talk about a situation like this that doesn’t make God out to be uncaring about the child’s fate - and without sounding glib?
If we had a choice of living a “perfect”, care free, existence on this earth at the expense of our eternal life (hell); or the most horrible, painful, miserable earthly life, with the guarantee we’d be with God eternally in the next life which would we choose? Would we prefer the perfect earthly life? Or would we accept, even be comforted by our sufferings for the promise of eternal happiness?
 
Particularly in the case of abuse of a child, even the most well-intentioned arguments seem cold.

I’d focus on two aspects: the sin itself, then the suffering.

The sin is the result of Free Will. Ask your BIL if HE’D be willing to sacrifice his free will for a sin-free existance. Pick some topic you know he’s against and ask him if he’d be willing to give up his opinion on it and ability to act on it, if it meant there’d be no sin. For example, ask him if he’d be willing to relinquish his 2nd amendment rights to stop all gun violence (just a hypothetical, it wouldn’t be effective if he’s pro-gun restrictions, you’d have to pick something else). Most of us know that smoking will kill us, drunk driving will endanger others, and running the lawn mower, weed whacker, AND leaf blower at 3pm on an ozone action day will result in something bad, but people still choose to engage in these actions. How would he react to a govenment that banned all smoking, drinking, and lawn care? So it is with God- God grants us free will, and we choose how to react to that.

If this discussion helps him understand WHY sin exists, you can sidestep the suffering part- particularly if he insists on using the “molested child” scenario.

If he persists, help him understand the Catholic notion of redemptive suffering, which is foreign to most (but not all) Protestant teachings. Try to steer the conversation away from the theoretical child, since imagining a child undergoing ANY suffereing, even redemptive, is simply too much to ask.

The thing is, when discussing it with him, keep clear of emotionally charged scenarios (like the children), and more on a intellectual level.
 
Thanks for all your thoughts and understanding. I’ll take time to read carefully and think about it all.

For sure, there is no point in dwelling on the abused child, but I can still understand why a situation like that is going to haunt an unbeliever.
 
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