Problem with a a guy at College

[firephoenix]

Hi, i read many posts around here quite often and don’t participate mainly because I’m too shy. I was reading and had the idea of asking you about a problem I’ve been facing lately at College.
I have a classmate who’s really annoying because he’s always cheating, but he’s also one of those guys that always talk to the teachers and everyone at College. He lies everyone and made everyone think that he’s a very good student, that he spends most of his time studying. Truth is he cheats in almost every test, and has his teammates make most of his work (we study computer science so we have many team-based assignments), knows very little of anything that has to do with computer science and even convinces teachers to help him by asking a gazillion questions so that they finally end up doing or telling him parts of the jobs he has to do.
I never protested because in our university u must have convincing proof, plus you must write a letter, sign it and the process is not done anonymously. It’s in fact a shame, but I can’t say anything about that and expose myself because cheating is not just something that he does, but most ppl do around here (me and a couple of classmates feel like the only stupid ppl that actually study).
Sometime ago we started a project which involves working with an institution building a software that they will end up using. We had to team up with him because there was requirement of team size and we needed one more and we didn’t know at that time that besides a liar and a cheater, he was also useless cuz he knows nothing. Also, by working with him I also learned that even though he tells everyone in our Catholic University that he’s catholic, he actually doesn’t believe in anything the church teaches, he believes all priests are child abusers so he doesn’t want or will ever confess to anyone. Finally, he was aggressive towards clients and usually mistreated ppl.
A couple of weeks ago, a job position opened in our university, and he applied. He told me that it was a really good job position, and it actually was. But he also told me that the one who was in charge of the department told him that he would choose him right in that moment, but that the university forced them to do an open call (sorry for my English). I thought he was lying and I decided to submit an application. I have the best student record in the whole faculty and most of the people that participated in the process were really good.
Well, he finally got a position (of two) and someone else got the other. I can’t help but think that is so unfair cuz he had a bloated student record considering that he didn’t deserve his grades, plus the job required honesty and that’s something that he really lacks. Now, he told me that he got a teacher to skip the selection process so that he could be an Artificial Intelligence assistant teacher.
Now, I’m thinking of recording a conversation with him, where he confirms everything he does and show it to ppl there, or if they don’t listen to me go to the press about it.
Problem is, that I have a scholarship cuz I can’t pay my studies by my own, and I also know that most ppl in my country are cheaters and usually take the short way, so I’m thinking that maybe the problem is me and I should leave the country as soon as I can.
Another alternative is that I try to play his own game, but beating him at it would be almost impossible for me cuz I’m too shy, though I’m smart and can get along with some ppl.
What do you think?

 

[1ke]

you do not need to play any game, certainly not his. you are not in competition with him. you do not want to work for someone who does not have integrity anyway.

do not secretly record him or do anything else that goes down to his level. stay above those sorts of tactics.

move on with your studies and leave college behind when you are done. you will go on to bigger and better things.

 

[firephoenix]

you do not need to play any game, certainly not his. you are not in competition with him. you do not want to work for someone who does not have integrity anyway.

do not secretly record him or do anything else that goes down to his level. stay above those sorts of tactics.

move on with your studies and leave college behind when you are done. you will go on to bigger and better things.

I’ve thought about that, but my mind keeps coming back to this thought that its so unfair. He might become a teacher! Or even worse, what if we compete for a job outside of college and i have no proof that I’m actually better than him because he’s going to have a fairly good student record and the recommendation of ppl in College.
Besides that, there’s the fact that I’m stuck with him in the project, and he really drags us down. I’ve had to do three or four times the normal work because he generates more problems than a guy that didn’t work at all! I act around him as if nothing bothers me and I actually help him more than my teammates do (which btw are also sick of him) because I have to hide the fact that if it were for me I’d kick him out of the project.
What if I go to teachers and just tell them the project situation? I think that if I tell them that he’s a cheater and a liar they won’t believe me, but if I just tell them that he’s just useless and makes too much trouble (of course not in those words), maybe someone will believe me…
Also, about secretly recording, I don’t know about ur country, but in mine it is a legal proof if the person that records the conversation does also speak in the recording.
Finally, besides practical advise that you give me, what do you think is the Correct (morally and ethically) thing to do?

 

[sacred_words]

I know how frustrating it is to see people like him in class get all the glory. I’ve dealt with people like that before. The good news is, it won’t last long. In the meantime, remember that his Swiss cheese knowledge will come back to haunt him sooner or later.

 

[daisybee]

Are there any staff members who have a role of advising students? Could you speak with a staff member you feel you could trust without naming his name, and maybe without mentioning the project? Perhaps you could just ask in general to have a discussion at a very general level about a concern you have about a student who has been cheating. If the staff member asks you for more information than you are comfortable with, you could just say, “I’d rather not say.” or, “I would rather not provide the information.”

Well, I understand that filing a formal complaint would not be anonymous, but I’m wondering if perhaps you could just send an anonymous, general letter without too many details and without names to the professor in charge of the overseeing the projects–just to inform the professor of a concern about cheating. Again, the letter would not mention his name, your name, or anyone’s name, or your project. Maybe the professor would then take steps to make sure everyone is doing part of the project.

However, sending an anonymous letter like that would probably only work if there are multiple projects a professor is overseeing, not just yours, otherwise s/he would know exactly which group of students is being referred to in the letter. It may not work either if other students have heard you or your friends complain about this guy–people may figure out it was someone among you and your friends who sent the letter. Maybe you could send it though, if you think you would be able to keep the information to yourself and tell absolutely no one about it among your peer group.

 

[JerryZ]

I’ve thought about that, but my mind keeps coming back to this thought that its so unfair. He might become a teacher! Or even worse, what if we compete for a job outside of college and i have no proof that I’m actually better than him because he’s going to have a fairly good student record and the recommendation of ppl in College.
Besides that, there’s the fact that I’m stuck with him in the project, and he really drags us down. I’ve had to do three or four times the normal work because he generates more problems than a guy that didn’t work at all! I act around him as if nothing bothers me and I actually help him more than my teammates do (which btw are also sick of him) because I have to hide the fact that if it were for me I’d kick him out of the project.
What if I go to teachers and just tell them the project situation? I think that if I tell them that he’s a cheater and a liar they won’t believe me, but if I just tell them that he’s just useless and makes too much trouble (of course not in those words), maybe someone will believe me…
Also, about secretly recording, I don’t know about ur country, but in mine it is a legal proof if the person that records the conversation does also speak in the recording.
Finally, besides practical advise that you give me, what do you think is the Correct (morally and ethically) thing to do?

Actually I agree 100% with the first comment/advice. Remember that eventually all knots meet the comb, he will have to face up to all he’s presently doing, Persevere in learning as much as possible that will prepare you for your professional endeavours. There you will shine while he will wither.

 

[revert_jen]

I’ve thought about that, but my mind keeps coming back to this thought that its so unfair. He might become a teacher! Or even worse, what if we compete for a job outside of college and i have no proof that I’m actually better than him because he’s going to have a fairly good student record and the recommendation of ppl in College.

It’s true. He might become a teacher. He might get a job you both apply for after you graduate. There may be nothing you can do about it. It is something that you will have to face, and it is one of the hardest lessons of adulthood–sometimes things just aren’t fair. That doesn’t mean you should stop fighting unfairness, only that you need to realize that you may not succeed. Life is not only about what happens in this world.

Besides that, there’s the fact that I’m stuck with him in the project, and he really drags us down. I’ve had to do three or four times the normal work because he generates more problems than a guy that didn’t work at all!

This is an excellent part of your education. I have worked in computer science for quite a few years, and this thing happens at work as well as in school. Sometimes people are hired and promoted without the correct skills or attitudes. Sometimes you can see that the people know they are not helping, sometimes it is hard to tell whether they know or not.

I work with someone now, who really doesn’t know what he is doing and causes unnecessary work for everyone else, but the high-up managers like him, so he can do as he likes. In school you have the benefit that at least you know the professors understand what you are supposed to be doing. In the workplace, frequently managers have no idea how to do what you are doing, and are not trained to be able to tell the difference between good work and bad. (That is what the testing folks are for! ) Part of the reason you get paid for work is because you have to deal with unpleasant situations and people.

I act around him as if nothing bothers me and I actually help him more than my teammates do (which btw are also sick of him) because I have to hide the fact that if it were for me I’d kick him out of the project.

This is the best thing you can do, and it shows that you are more mature than I was at your age.

What if I go to teachers and just tell them the project situation? I think that if I tell them that he’s a cheater and a liar they won’t believe me, but if I just tell them that he’s just useless and makes too much trouble (of course not in those words), maybe someone will believe me…

I don’t think it would work if you tried it alone, but if all of the people in your project go, that would probably work. The only thing is, you would have to be sure what you want to happen. Do you just want him taken off the project? But then your group would be too small. Also, it would mean that there is no way for him to finish the project. There is no use in giving your professor an unsolvable problem. In this situation I think the most likely thing would be for the professor to take the guy aside and tell him to work harder or something, which would probably only make more problems for you.

Also, about secretly recording, I don’t know about ur country, but in mine it is a legal proof if the person that records the conversation does also speak in the recording.
Finally, besides practical advise that you give me, what do you think is the Correct (morally and ethically) thing to do?

I think in this country it is not allowed to record people in a private place without their knowledge. I feel privacy is important and I do not think people should secretly tape other people–but I am not sure whether I think that on moral grounds, or just because I myself dislike it.

On the whole, though, I think the best thing to do is what my grandmother would have told you, “Offer it up.” Accept that dealing with this student is suffering. Choose an intention (a family member in pain or in trouble, the holy souls in Purgatory, a person you know who is falling away from the Church–whatever you like), and willingly accept the suffering, like Christ willingly accepted the suffering on the Cross, and unite your sacrifice with His for the sake of that intention. It takes many acts of the will to do this. It is hard. You have to keep reminding yourself that you are doing it. But it is a good thing to spend your energy on–much better than spending it on the frustration of watching this other student get away with things and not get caught.

God bless you and help you and guide you to the right thing to do, whatever that may be.

–Jen

 

[Patavium]

firephoenix,

Do not let envy, and hate inside your heart. Ask God to shield you from those feelings. It is not right for you to intentionally cause him harm despite of the fact that he is lying, and cheating his way to immediate success. I believe it is better for you to set the example, and if he asks questions as to why you do not cheat like him to tell him why. Don’t poison your heart with feelings of unfairness that will lead you to hatred and/or envy.

 

[Rainaldo]

I think, you seem to think this situation is all about you, and you seem to think this is the only time this sort of thing has ever happened, and that it is your responsibility to do something about it just because you happen to be involved in some remote and tangential way. I say let him run his course and let the College deal with him, should the College so choose. You are smart enough to come up with ways to ostracize him from your workgroup. For example, agree to meet him at Mass one Sunday to transfer information to him in written form. Finally, College is not the whole world, so stop fretting about mendacious colleagues.

 

[Groo]

If you have concrete proof of cheating or some other violation of academic honesty, then I think you have to report it. This type of behavior might be merely a nuisance now, but if he gets a position of responsibility he could really hurt someone.

It is possible that no one will believe you; or that they will disregard your testimony. But that is not within your control. Once you testify to this behavior, leave the rest to God’s hands; you have done your part.

As to recording his conversations, I would not do this regardless of legality. This guy is a smooth talker and would probably get out of it. Plus recording his conversation without consent could make you look petty and jealous.

If you don’t have anything supportable you can report, then just wait until something comes up. But don’t make him your white whale ala Moby Dick either. Good luck.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It’s so maddening to those of us with morals and ethics, but these people are everywhere and there do seem to be more of them than there used to be (and there used to be plenty!).

I have always DESPISED group projects for this very reason - that there will always be one or more freeloaders when there are dedicated people who want the grade. They will hang on the coattails and share the glory, whilst doing none or very little of the work. At least in a workplace situation, there are usually better channels to deal with that. In school, not so much.

OP, try to just do your work and realize that this guy is not alone (sounds like you already do) and keep your perspective. Maybe one day, you will be the lead programmer and will be able to weed people like this from your work group. Work toward that goal!

 

[firephoenix]

Are there any staff members who have a role of advising students? Could you speak with a staff member you feel you could trust without naming his name, and maybe without mentioning the project?"

Actually, the job he’s got it’s in that department. He’ll be in charge of interviewing people who want to study in the university and other administrative tasks. As I said before, the person in charge of the department selected him even before of starting the selection process, so I don’t really want to talk to that person about cheating.

However, sending an anonymous letter like that would probably only work if there are multiple projects a professor is overseeing, not just yours, otherwise s/he would know exactly which group of students is being referred to in the letter. It may not work either if other students have heard you or your friends complain about this guy–people may figure out it was someone among you and your friends who sent the letter. Maybe you could send it though, if you think you would be able to keep the information to yourself and tell absolutely no one about it among your peer group.

We have very small classes so probably it won’t stay anonymous for too long i think.

I know how frustrating it is to see people like him in class get all the glory. I’ve dealt with people like that before. The good news is, it won’t last long. In the meantime, remember that his Swiss cheese knowledge will come back to haunt him sooner or later.

Actually I agree 100% with the first comment/advice. Remember that eventually all knots meet the comb, he will have to face up to all he’s presently doing, Persevere in learning as much as possible that will prepare you for your professional endeavours. There you will shine while he will wither.

In that part you’re both right. I’m really confident I do learn because i always do tasks myself, plus i also read many books and info about every subject possible and have a pretty good student record.

That doesn’t mean you should stop fighting unfairness, only that you need to realize that you may not succeed. Life is not only about what happens in this world.

Yeah, i know that. It’s just that I feel bad about doing nothing. Those things used to get me more trouble when I was a child, when i acted more and thought less .

This is an excellent part of your education. I have worked in computer science for quite a few years, and this thing happens at work as well as in school. Sometimes people are hired and promoted without the correct skills or attitudes. Sometimes you can see that the people know they are not helping, sometimes it is hard to tell whether they know or not.

I work with someone now, who really doesn’t know what he is doing and causes unnecessary work for everyone else, but the high-up managers like him, so he can do as he likes. In school you have the benefit that at least you know the professors understand what you are supposed to be doing. In the workplace, frequently managers have no idea how to do what you are doing, and are not trained to be able to tell the difference between good work and bad. (That is what the testing folks are for! ) Part of the reason you get paid for work is because you have to deal with unpleasant situations and people.

(…)
On the whole, though, I think the best thing to do is what my grandmother would have told you, “Offer it up.” Accept that dealing with this student is suffering. Choose an intention (a family member in pain or in trouble, the holy souls in Purgatory, a person you know who is falling away from the Church–whatever you like), and willingly accept the suffering, like Christ willingly accepted the suffering on the Cross, and unite your sacrifice with His for the sake of that intention. It takes many acts of the will to do this. It is hard. You have to keep reminding yourself that you are doing it. But it is a good thing to spend your energy on–much better than spending it on the frustration of watching this other student get away with things and not get caught.

God bless you and help you and guide you to the right thing to do, whatever that may be.

–Jen

I guess in work also happen those kinds of things.
Thanks for the advice . As you say, i should probably focus my energy in something better.

 

[firephoenix]

firephoenix,

Do not let envy, and hate inside your heart. Ask God to shield you from those feelings. It is not right for you to intentionally cause him harm despite of the fact that he is lying, and cheating his way to immediate success.
I believe it is better for you to set the example, and if he asks questions as to why you do not cheat like him to tell him why. Don’t poison your heart with feelings of unfairness that will lead you to hatred and/or envy.

Yes, i probably should take care of not letting the feeling of unfairness become anything worse like you said, hate or envy.
I highly doubt he’d ask me why i dont cheat, the only time i got a question like that was in (catholic and private) school where i was asked “why don’t you swear?”. Really, cheating is so common that when you don’t cheat ppl just assume that you’re stupid. There’s even a book about it entitled “Always the same fools” or something like that (sorry but it’s hard to translate it).

I think, you seem to think this situation is all about you, and you seem to think this is the only time this sort of thing has ever happened, and that it is your responsibility to do something about it just because you happen to be involved in some remote and tangential way. I say let him run his course and let the College deal with him, should the College so choose. You are smart enough to come up with ways to ostracize him from your workgroup. For example, agree to meet him at Mass one Sunday to transfer information to him in written form. Finally, College is not the whole world, so stop fretting about mendacious colleagues.

Well, I tend to believe it’s about me whenever I see something wrong, because it probably is happening something wrong because more and more ppl just walkaway instead of try to fix stuff. I believe many of our country’s problems are because there is no social pressure to act good as there is in other places.
I cant’t agree to meet him at mass because as I said he’s just faking to be catholic .

If you have concrete proof of cheating or some other violation of academic honesty, then I think you have to report it. This type of behavior might be merely a nuisance now, but if he gets a position of responsibility he could really hurt someone.

As to recording his conversations, I would not do this regardless of legality. This guy is a smooth talker and would probably get out of it. Plus recording his conversation without consent could make you look petty and jealous.

If you don’t have anything supportable you can report, then just wait until something comes up. But don’t make him your white whale ala Moby Dick either. Good luck.

I don’t have anything supportable, all i have are my eyes and what everyone who has worked with him says (even himself), that’s why I thought of recording him.

It’s so maddening to those of us with morals and ethics, but these people are everywhere and there do seem to be more of them than there used to be (and there used to be plenty!).

I have always DESPISED group projects for this very reason - that there will always be one or more freeloaders when there are dedicated people who want the grade. They will hang on the coattails and share the glory, whilst doing none or very little of the work. At least in a workplace situation, there are usually better channels to deal with that. In school, not so much.

OP, try to just do your work and realize that this guy is not alone (sounds like you already do) and keep your perspective. Maybe one day, you will be the lead programmer and will be able to weed people like this from your work group. Work toward that goal!

You’re right, hopefully one day i’ll be in a position where i will be able to do more.

Thank you all for your answers! I’m glad I posted this question because you’re all helpful!

 

[Byrnwiga]

As someone who is just about done their degree in computer science, I can say I’ve witnessed the same things. Remember this, though: almost all jobs that a computer scientist can get are in private sector companies that do not have unions. Since he hasn’t worked hard at learning the subject and has chosen instead to be dishonest, he will suffer later. In CS work environments, “freeloaders” are fired quickly (assuming they can even get hired).

Just keep working hard (and learn a legacy language ).

-Byrnwiga

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

I’ve thought about that, but my mind keeps coming back to this thought that its so unfair. He might become a teacher! Or even worse, what if we compete for a job outside of college and i have no proof that I’m actually better than him because he’s going to have a fairly good student record and the recommendation of ppl in College.

One of the spiritual works of mercy is to bear wrongs patiently. This is one of those things that needs to bore patiently. Throughout your life as you grow older you will be subject to many injustices in life, especially in the workplace, etc. I have been where you are now and felt the way you feel many times. I learned that it does no good to worry about these things, and instead to just bear them and focus on your own life.

Rest assured that when the Day of Wrath comes and everyone must stand before God during the General Judgement, all will be made known, and God will seek justice. He will right wrongs, and triumph over evil. Those who have good names and do not deserve a good name will be stripped of it. Those whose good name was ruined, will receive it back. Those deserving of punishment will be punished, and those deserving of reward will be rewarded.

That said, you can’t go around thinking to yourself every time someone does something wrong to you, “Oooo, you’re gonna get yours”. You still must pray for sinners, including this person.

 

[EasterJoy]

Hi, i read many posts around here quite often and don’t participate mainly because I’m too shy. I was reading and had the idea of asking you about a problem I’ve been facing lately at College.
I have a classmate who’s really annoying because he’s always cheating, but he’s also one of those guys that always talk to the teachers and everyone at College. He lies everyone and made everyone think that he’s a very good student, that he spends most of his time studying. Truth is he cheats in almost every test, and has his teammates make most of his work (we study computer science so we have many team-based assignments), knows very little of anything that has to do with computer science and even convinces teachers to help him by asking a gazillion questions so that they finally end up doing or telling him parts of the jobs he has to do.
I never protested because in our university u must have convincing proof, plus you must write a letter, sign it and the process is not done anonymously. It’s in fact a shame, but I can’t say anything about that and expose myself because cheating is not just something that he does, but most ppl do around here (me and a couple of classmates feel like the only stupid ppl that actually study).
Sometime ago we started a project which involves working with an institution building a software that they will end up using. We had to team up with him because there was requirement of team size and we needed one more and we didn’t know at that time that besides a liar and a cheater, he was also useless cuz he knows nothing. Also, by working with him I also learned that even though he tells everyone in our Catholic University that he’s catholic, he actually doesn’t believe in anything the church teaches, he believes all priests are child abusers so he doesn’t want or will ever confess to anyone. Finally, he was aggressive towards clients and usually mistreated ppl.
A couple of weeks ago, a job position opened in our university, and he applied. He told me that it was a really good job position, and it actually was. But he also told me that the one who was in charge of the department told him that he would choose him right in that moment, but that the university forced them to do an open call (sorry for my English). I thought he was lying and I decided to submit an application. I have the best student record in the whole faculty and most of the people that participated in the process were really good.
Well, he finally got a position (of two) and someone else got the other. I can’t help but think that is so unfair cuz he had a bloated student record considering that he didn’t deserve his grades, plus the job required honesty and that’s something that he really lacks. Now, he told me that he got a teacher to skip the selection process so that he could be an Artificial Intelligence assistant teacher.
Now, I’m thinking of recording a conversation with him, where he confirms everything he does and show it to ppl there, or if they don’t listen to me go to the press about it.
Problem is, that I have a scholarship cuz I can’t pay my studies by my own, and I also know that most ppl in my country are cheaters and usually take the short way, so I’m thinking that maybe the problem is me and I should leave the country as soon as I can.
Another alternative is that I try to play his own game, but beating him at it would be almost impossible for me cuz I’m too shy, though I’m smart and can get along with some ppl.
What do you think?

Let me guess: You’re not at the US Military Academy at West Point.

The reputation of your undergraduate university follows you for life. If your university really turns out a lot of graduates who don’t know anything because they cheat their way through and a lot of others who are pressured to tolerate those who do, then by all means try to find a place with higher standards, since you are a student who can benefit from a better institution and its deservedly better reputation. Otherwise, your resume might be unfairly tainted with the misdeeds of alumni who went out into the world before you. In other words, guys like this don’t just bloat their own resumes. They go out in the world, are shown for what they are, and deflate the resumes of their classmates.

In the meantime, go to your counsellor, insist that you need to talk in absolute confidence because you have reason to fear reprisals, and ask what your options are. It may be that you will be able to get permission to avoid being on the same team with this guy again. Don’t bring up the job thing, because you will seem like a sore loser. Just let that go and stick with bad experiences you have had with this fellow free-loading on you in classes together the past. Even if you have many people who aren’t the most ethical, this guy sounds like someone you particularly do not want to be close to. If nothing else, make it a habit to change sections whenever you’re stuck in a section with him.

Stay off his radar. Your shyness will help this. Charming people given to lying are not uncommonly given to vindictive behavior, sometimes to the point of cutting of their noses to spite their face. This is what I mean by fearing reprisals. People who routinely lie and cheat usually have more serious character flaws than just that.

 

[EasterJoy]

As someone who is just about done their degree in computer science, I can say I’ve witnessed the same things. Remember this, though: almost all jobs that a computer scientist can get are in private sector companies that do not have unions. Since he hasn’t worked hard at learning the subject and has chosen instead to be dishonest, he will suffer later. In CS work environments, “freeloaders” are fired quickly (assuming they can even get hired).

Just keep working hard (and learn a legacy language ).

-Byrnwiga

If a university turns out some who know their stuff and some who don’t, local employers catch on to that fairly quickly. They learn to satisfy themselves that a candidate is good, and they are not easy to fool with slick talk. Once burned, twice shy…the survival of their companies depend on finding honest and capable employees.

If the problems the OP is having are the local norm or a widespread problem in the whole of a particular educational field in that region, then the workplace is going to be ready for that…good point! It isn’t as if they can just get all their employees from University A or the College of C situated nearby, instead of University F that passes all the cheaters.