Problem with saying "The Lord"

[newcalling]

newcalling:

Anyway, y’all entirely missed my point. It’s as I expected. Perhaps I just need to stay away from mass on the days where the readings use that blasphemy.

To accuse Holy Mother Church of blasphemy is serious business.

Please, speak to your priest or someone in the Diocese office of Liturgy.

See, this is why I am glad my conversion isn’t intellectual. Statements like this one would cause me to run the other way if I was relying on intellect to convince me. Truth be told, intellectually I can’t resolve my belief in the Church entirely, but I don’t need to; I do as God leads, and He made it clear where I need to be.

 

[newcalling]

May I ask a couple simple question to help us understand the problem. Are you suggesting, or you believe, the translations of scriptures approved by the Church are blasphemous? Or, at you suggesting, or actually believe, the scriptures themselves are blasphemous?

The translation of them contains a blasphemous error. It was not blasphemy when it was originally done, because it was done for good reason (they really didn’t know how to pronounce The Name or transliterate it into Greek and later languages.) Now, we know how to pronounce it again, and it is the tradition of many Christians to say it. Our church used to have it in hymns until the Pope Emeritus removed them. I believe he was wrong, even though I understand the reasons he did so. I also think our church is wrong about a few things, like not proselytizing to Jewish believers. (to the Jew FIRST and also to the Greek) It doesn’t negate that this is the church with Apostolic authority and the real presence in the Eucharist. God bore with us through the Medici fiascoes, and He’ll bear with us through everything because THAT is His promise. It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to get better. I mean, we finally stopped killing everyone who disagreed with us… Though the responses of some here would make me think some of y’all want to bring back that tradition too.

 

[newcalling]

If you feel that way, then I don’t think you should be a lector. No one is forcing you to be a lector, and if you feel that the readings are blasphemous (even though they’re not), then please just tell your priest you can’t be a reader and refrain. I’m sure your feelings of distaste are subtly apparent to the congregation as you read the Holy Word, and I don’t think you want that.

Do you really think the Holy Spirit would continue to let His Holy Church use a blasphemous title referring to Ba’al when it’s supposed to be referring to God? Adonai is our Lord. “The Lord is my Shepherd”…Jesus Christ, not the devil. I think the English translation is beautiful and reverent. I’m sorry, but you’re really mixed up about this. Your arguments about this remind me of people who accuse the Catholic Church of really being the Whore of Babylon in disguise.

Ask your priest for some help in sorting out your misperceptions. God bless.

Thank you for illustrating the problem so perfectly! See, the verse you quote “The Lord is my Shepherd” originally said, “Yahweh is my shepherd.” (Baruch HaShem. I’m not going to get around just typing the name I suppose.)

The Holy Spirit let us put the Medici’s in as Popes, and let us slaughter people for disagreeing with our beliefs and having different beliefs. The kind of authority Yeshua gave to the Apostles, and which resides still in the church, doesn’t go away. I imagine God could remove it, but He hasn’t yet and I believe He has promised to never do such a thing.

Edit: I wanted to add, I already addressed calling Yeshua “Lord” as a title and how that differs from replacing The Name itself with the word “Lord.”

 

[tafan2]

I certainly do not know Hebrew, so I can’t comment directly, but if I may:. At what point did the translations go wrong? Recently? The Vulgate? The Septuagint?

 

[newcalling]

I certainly do not know Hebrew, so I can’t comment directly, but if I may:. At what point did the translations go wrong? Recently? The Vulgate? The Septuagint?

Thank you for asking. I believe the problem started with The Septuagint (the Greek version of the Hebrew scriptures.) Though, at the time there was very good reason for not including The Name itself, because they didn’t know how to pronounce it or transliterate it into Greek. Now, we know how to pronounce it again (at least I am confident in what most Hebrew scholars say, and many Christians do use it.) It was unfortunate that they chose “Lord” to replace the Name, but I understand why they originally replaced it at all. Eventually, it just became “tradition.”

 

[ShowersofRoses]

It’s hard to follow all your reasoning, but I am much more comfortable saying “The Lord is my Shepherd” than “Yahweh is my Shepherd.” It does not feel respectful to keep repeating Yahweh…though I believe the Jerusalem Bible has this translation? I might be wrong on that. However, I’m curious how you know that scholars are certain on how to pronounce Yahweh? I was always taught that we do not know how the ancient Hebrews pronounced it since they didn’t write it with the vowels. Are you saying some new studies have appeared? And even if they did, we wouldn’t want to keep saying God’s name over and over, which is why we substitute His title in the first place. And I know in the KJV Bible, there is a difference between LORD (God the Father) and Lord (Jesus) and lord (a human ruler). I’m not sure how the Catholic translations have it written.

 

[Usagi]

Is it not true, then, that Jewish believers once had a custom of replacing the Name with “Adonai” even in their liturgies (in Hebrew)?

 

[BartholomewB]

@newcalling, Let me ask you a simple question about synagogue worship. When the rabbi or a member of the congregation is reading aloud from the Torah scroll and says “Adonai” every time he sees the name יהוה there, is he blaspheming?

If your answer is Yes, your obvious course of action will be to lose no time but to hurry to your nearest synagogue and helpfully explain to the rabbi what he is doing wrong. But if your answer is No, you will need to explain why reading it as “Lord” in English, or as “Dominus” in Jerome’s Latin, or as “Seigneur” in French and so on, is blasphemous even though reading it as “Adonai” in Hebrew is not.

 

[newcalling]

It’s hard to follow all your reasoning, but I am much more comfortable saying “The Lord is my Shepherd” than “Yahweh is my Shepherd.” It does not feel respectful to keep repeating Yahweh…though I believe the Jerusalem Bible has this translation? I might be wrong on that. However, I’m curious how you know that scholars are certain on how to pronounce Yahweh? I was always taught that we do not know how the ancient Hebrews pronounced it since they didn’t write it with the vowels. Are you saying some new studies have appeared? And even if they did, we wouldn’t want to keep saying God’s name over and over, which is why we substitute His title in the first place. And I know in the KJV Bible, there is a difference between LORD (God the Father) and Lord (Jesus) and lord (a human ruler). I’m not sure how the Catholic translations have it written.

That’s fine. My intention wasn’t to convince anyone else. I’m not enough of a scholar to do so, and I haven’t felt called to do so. In my heart, it is wrong for the reasons I stated.

It was written “without the vowels” because Hebrew originally didn’t have written vowels (modern Hebrew has added them.) For the longest time, no one was sure how to pronounce Hebrew, but there was at least minimal consensus. Yes, since the founding of Israel, there have been countless new studies (again, I’m not a scholar on this matter, and I can only quote the scholars with whom I’ve spoken) and better understanding of how ancient Hebrew was pronounced.

 

[newcalling]

Is it not true, then, that Jewish believers once had a custom of replacing the Name with “Adonai” even in their liturgies (in Hebrew)?

They still do. It’s part of the problem I have with modern Rabbinic Judaism, and much of Talmudic Judaism. However, I’m not here to criticize faiths to which I do not subscribe.

I’m not even intending to criticize those of you who disagree with me. I can be disagreed with and still remain amicable. I hope I haven’t come across as hostile in any way.

 

[newcalling]

@newcalling, Let me ask you a simple question about synagogue worship. When the rabbi or a member of the congregation is reading aloud from the Torah scroll and says “Adonai” every time he sees the name יהוה there, is he blaspheming?

If your answer is Yes, your obvious course of action will be to lose no time but to hurry to your nearest synagogue and helpfully explain to the rabbi what he is doing wrong. But if your answer is No, you will need to explain why reading it as “Lord” in English, or as “Dominus” in Jerome’s Latin, or as “Seigneur” in French and so on, is blasphemous even though reading it as “Adonai” in Hebrew is not.

I have no duty to explain another person’s faith to them. I am not Jewish. I do disagree with that, and many other tenants of Rabbinic Judaism and even Talmudic Judaism (the Talmud existed before the advent of Rabbinic Judaism, which is modern Judaism.) That’s why I’m not of the Jewish faith. It’s not for me to tell Jewish people how to be Jewish though, because I’m not Jewish.

 

[BartholomewB]

@newcalling, please answer my simple question. Here it is again. When the rabbi or a member of the congregation is reading aloud from the Torah scroll and says “Adonai” every time he sees the name יהוה there, is he blaspheming?

 

[Autumn-Smoke]

As others have said, Even when Jewish people see HaShem written out they they say Adonai. Only the High Priest was ever allowed to say God’s name. And the High Priest, as far as I’ve read, was careful only to pronounce God’s name when no one else could hear it–for example, during a ceremony right at the time when the trumpets were blasting. So it was never spoken casually outright. But His Holy Name was held in deepest respect because mankind was not deemed worthy enough to speak it. It’s the same as today, when out of respect, the Orthodox write G-d. It is out of respect and certainly not blasphemous.

And as far as Ba’al, the title ‘Master.’ The greatest Chassidic rabbis go by that title. Someone else has mentioned the Ba’al Shem Tov - meaning ‘Master of the Good Name’. When someone says ‘Lord’ it is not referring to the devil. There is no way, when the Jewish people say Adonai instead of HaShem, that they are actually saying or meaning HaSatan instead.

You mentioned that you are praying about this. I think that’s a good idea. If, when you read, you would say HaShem in your heart–as if you were speaking to God himself, but say ‘Lord’ out of respect, and then ask God to give you this perspective and to change your thinking about this, it may be helpful.

 

[thistle]

Anyway, y’all entirely missed my point. It’s as I expected. Perhaps I just need to stay away from mass on the days where the readings use that blasphemy.

There is no blasphemy in the readings at Mass. That is simply your perverted view.

 

[BartholomewB]

I hope I haven’t come across as hostile in any way.

You have denounced the whole of Christian Scriptures from Jerome onward as “blasphemous.” What could be more hostile than that.

 

[ratio1]

Note that Ba’al is equivocated with the devil,

For those of you interested in the Hebrew word ba’al.

 

[ratio1]

better understanding of how ancient Hebrew was pronounced.

I’m not sure that we can ever be sure how it was pronounced.
Here’s what one person thinks.

 

[tafan2]

One more question, can you point us to any Jewish or Catholic scholars who share your view?

 

[TheLittleLady]

I already addressed calling Yeshua “Lord” as a title and how that differs from replacing The Name itself with the word “Lord.

So, it somehow “blasphemes” my husband when I call him my husband or your father instead of by his given name? Or my dad, when I refer to him by his title of Grandfather instead of his given name?

Seriously, please, get some help for this unique scruple.

 

[meltzerboy2]

In conversation, HaShem is the word used to describe G-d. In the synagogue, the word is Adonai (or Adoshem, as I recall from my youth). J-hovah is NEVER used by Jews, probably because it is too complete a form. I have seen it only once in writing. However, I believe most of the debate regarding the name of G-d is based on WRITING rather than the spoken language. That is, one is prohibited from writing the full name of G-d (including on the computer) for fear it may be inadvertently deleted.

The most complete discussion of this topic is probably to be found online in The Jewish Encyclopedia.