Problem with the anthropic Principle

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Hmm…so at best the anthropic principle tells us that the concept of God is not incompatible with the universe? It does nothing more than that? It cannot tell us, for example, that an ultimate designer was more than likely responsible for the universe,as theists would love to be able to claim?
 
Hmm…so at best the anthropic principle tells us that the concept of God is not incompatible with the universe? It does nothing more than that? It cannot tell us, for example, that an ultimate designer was more than likely responsible for the universe,as theists would love to be able to claim?
I think it does those things, and, yes, this is a problem for atheists. The entire reason for the really, really crazy multiverse theory is to explain away the unbelievable odds incidental to the anthropic principle. Good book on this:

amazon.com/gp/product/0802863833/ref=oss_product

Extremely intelligent man.
 
Here’s the way I currently view the anthropic principle.

The universe’s physics are such that that life is possible, but only under very specific circumstances. Life can be described as self-preserving, self-replicating molecules. Now, every atom and electron in your body has absolutely no conscious reason or purpose for doing what it does other than following the physics of the universe. Under specific conditions which have yet to be replicated in a lab, carbon, phosphorous, oxygen, nitrogen, and hydrogen come together to form nucleotide polymers (DNA or RNA). These nucleotide polymers, because of the way the universe’s laws are set up, organize the matter and energy around themselves in such a way as to preserve their existence, and they also create more of themselves. This seems incredibly fortuitous.
We are a narrative-obsessed species. Nature favors an inclination towards paranoia and conspiracy thinking. It’s good risk management – the cost of “false beliefs in conspiracies” (that’s a predator rustling the bush about to attack and eat me! Oh never mind, it’s just a squirrel…) is relatively low to the cost of missed positives (I wasn’t being vigilant or suspicious and the lion snuck up on me and ate me!). So we’re wired, in part for conspiracy theories, built to imagine gods and to put patterns and plans where there are none.

When you are a hammer, everthing seems a nail. When you are a hyper-telic, psychologically, everything seems designed.

Also, the endurance of physical systems is not enduring because it’s somehow “fortunate” or “charmed” in some a priori sense; we say it is fortuitous retrodictively because it succeeded against the demands of the environment. This is a recapitulation of the antithesis of the Anthropic Principle: *polymers are adaptive to physical law, as opposed to physical law being adapted to support polymer formation.
Why should these polymers “code” for anything meaningful or useful?
Because that is what succeeds in persisting over time through replication. One might as well ask why the best equipped to survive/thrive survived and thrived. Across all the different permutations and experiments that developed in the environment, these are the configurations that didn’t go extinct.
Why should a particular arrangement of atoms be able to arrange another set of atoms so as to prevent the former arrangement from being annihilated?
The polymer formation is just chemistry. Physically necessary, automatic, in the sense that if put the right raw materials in the right medium and conditions, you will predictably get the same compounds. The reason the configurations you wonder about being around is because their structure and arrangement is amenable (and in many cases, remarkably adept!) at hanging around to be noticed by humans billions of years later. We wonder why the things that have survived are the things we notice that have survived?
Why should the nucleotide polymers replicate themselves and carry on meaningful information?
Out of all the interactions that took place, it was these configuration and arrangement, the iterative designs of a “blind watchmaker” that explored the search landscape successfully to find a configuration that promoted its own self-propagation and endurance over long periods of time.
Why should a lipid bi-layer form a sphere around the DNA to protect it? Why should organelles form inside this sphere to assist the DNA? Why should enzymes form and be able to reduce the energy barrier for certain chemical reactions necessary for the DNA’s existence? Why should these relatively huge and multi-faceted machines of molecules known as cells be able to function at all?
Same reason. Of all the various interactions that nature hosts, unthinkably many “experiments” in interactions governed by physical law (combining stochastic processes as well as deterministic mechanics), these are the configurations, step by step, that managed to persist in the environment, and then ‘survive’, once the configuration reached a complexity and feature set we would call ‘life’ (metabolism, etc.)

-TS
 
Luke K:
Why should fortuitous, random alterations in the DNA be able to make even more complicated molecular machines?
It’s no more fortuitous that the good fortune of findout after a million rolls of two six-sided dice that “7” is the most common sum rolled. It’s just the outcome of natural resolving its interactions, over and over, and over… If “more complicated molecular machines” were not physically effective as a means of persisting and propagating, they wouldn’t persist, and we’d not be here discussing this.
Why should enough rearrangements, additions, and alterations to the DNA and cells eventually produce the body that you have today? Why should 6.7 x 10^27 atoms all cooperate across relatively huge distances (compared to atomic sizes) to create a macroscopic human body, with all its anatomy and functions? And finally, why should these bodies then go on to alter their environment and after many centuries of trial and error and passing on information to subsequent generations, create ever-more complex machines like cars and computers, just like the DNA that started it all?
Because on balance it promotes propagation and fecundity. Human meta-representational cognition as a matter of chemistry and physiology was a “cosmic boom” of evolutionary innovation, conferring on humans the tools to reproduce more like bacteria in terms of growth and numbers than the barely-surviving as a species proto-hominids that came before them.

Technology kills, and thus promotes evolutionary prosperity. Humans can now propagate without sex! Our selfish genes have triumphed over even the challenge of requiring copulation for themselves to be passed down into the future.
There’s no necessary reason for them to do this. None at all.
Sure, it couldn’t be avoided, it’s just physics being physics. The randomness of mutations means that if we “replayed the tape”, so to speak, we’d get different results, to some degree, but the formation of such complexity is just the natural conversion of available “free energy” from the sun into physical structures and processes.
They just do because of thermodynamic, kinetic, and bonding principles which all the matter in the universe follows. It also all happened because something after the big bang made the matter and energy in the universe separate into a non-homogenous configuration where useful work could be done from the available energy instead of an immediate “heat-death.”
That’s not a mystery, that’s just quantum mechanics being all quantumy. A homogeneous plasma as it cools and goes through phase changes will form perturbances, points of non-homogeneity due to QM, and these incredibly small events become the “seeds” of galaxies, the beginning of densities that begin to cluster mass around them, and make the universe non-homogenous at macro scales.
The anthropic principle points out that the laws of the universe are such that very specific conditions activate a natural chemical program that produces you and me. Arguments go from there, I guess.
We have no idea what kinds of life would obtain, if any, with different cosmological parameter sets. We can say that no other elements than helium and hydrogen would form with some configurations, for example, which would seem to preclude life in that universe, but for a whole slew of knob settings, we just don’t know. This may be a “unique preset”, or one of innumerable other configurations that produce life, if dramatically different forms of life.
We will never be able to observe an infinite universe, and the current density of what we can observe is 4 hydrogen atoms per cubic meter, so there is no reason to think that there is an infinite amount of matter.
That doesn’t follow at all, but I’ll leave that for now.

-TS
 
Hmm…so at best the anthropic principle tells us that the concept of God is not incompatible with the universe? It does nothing more than that? It cannot tell us, for example, that an ultimate designer was more than likely responsible for the universe,as theists would love to be able to claim?
I don’t know that I’d use the word “tell”, but it certainly suggests a Cosmic Designer. Even to an atheist (atheists are just as given to the designed-obsessed intuitions that that theists are, after all). The Anthropic Principle is not important as a concept because it shows that the concept of God is compatible with our observed universe. You don’t need the Anthropic Principle to show that – the concept of God is compatible with any and all observations.

The AP is the intuition that the cosmological parameters are not the result of happenstance, impersonal processes, but the result of deliberate “setting” by some agent. That’s really the sum of it – the universe was configured specifically to support organic life.

-TS
 
So if I said “I believe in God because of the anthropic principle”, what would all of your responses be?
 
So if I said “I believe in God because of the anthropic principle”, what would all of your responses be?
I would say, “It’s a good explanation for the way things are, but it might not be the only one.”
 
Because that is what succeeds in persisting over time through replication. One might as well ask why the best equipped to survive/thrive survived and thrived. Across all the different permutations and experiments that developed in the environment, these are the configurations that didn’t go extinct.

-TS
I know that we see the organisms we do today because they survive and reproduce, in contrast to hypothetical ones which may have simply died off after the first generation 4 billion years ago. The point is that these molecules are able to do what they do at all. Natural selection and evolution only explain why something would continue existing once it existed. From my understanding, the anthropic principle points out the interesting fact that these chemical phenomena were at all possible (because of physical laws and constants) and actually did happen (because of the arrangement of matter after the big bang).

For example, the point I was getting at with the polymers coding for something useful was that it is just as possible that the physics could be such that the nucleotide bases could only code for useless compounds or nothing at all, instead of proteins which supported its survival.

You do raise a good point that we don’t know what other forms of life could be possible with different physical laws. After all, from the theist’s perspective, God could have created any kind of universe he wanted and still had it produce life. I’ll have to think about the implications of that for a bit.
 
So if I said “I believe in God because of the anthropic principle”, what would all of your responses be?
It doesn’t satisfy me, but it’s one of the better intuitions for god (small g) that I’m aware of.

-TS
 
Hmmm.Does this mean that if a miracle could actually scientifically captured, documented, in a way that just embarrasses the Padre Pio type of “documentation”, it would be unwise to do so? That would be something I’m both interested in, and open to as actual evidence for god, or at least some kind of plasticity in nature that was consistent with manipulation by a deity.

It’s a bit disappointing, I guess. I don’t believe there’s any good basis to believe in God, but I can imagine science being a very solid way to support the idea as a matter of reasoning on evidence. It’s one way I imagine my atheism could be falsified, so it’s interesting to hear (if I understand you) that the Church would avoid going there, even if the events supported a real, skeptic-compatible miracle.

-TS
I’m replying to just the bold-faced part of your quote (although the other parts are interesting). There are miracles that have been documented, captured so to speak, but they can’t be scientifically captured because they aren’t reproducible. And reproducibility is an essential part of the scientific process. Polywater, cold fusion and all sorts of exciting results were rejected (eventually) because the results couldn’t be reproduced. There is good testimony for the factuality of miracles; the Church investigates very carefully all miracles that are to be attributed for a proposed canonization, and, for example, will reject apparently miraculous cures if there has been any prior treatment. One case I think of particular interest is that reported by Dr. Alexis Carrell of a miraculous cure at Lourdes: thesplendorofthechurch.blogspot.com/2009/07/two-lourdes-miracles-and-nobel-laureate.html You’ll have to scroll down to get the commentary by Fr. Jaki, which goes over the pros and cons of the observed miracle.
To sum up, I believe in the factuality of miracles (including that of the Resurrection), but I would not treat them as something in the domain of science, any more than would be the guilt of a particular murder suspect. One might use the tools of science/technology to dig out facts, but that’s not really science, only technology/engineering (which are worthwhile, but not science).
 
So if I said “I believe in God because of the anthropic principle”, what would all of your responses be?
I think you would be basing faith on very weak premises. The “anthropic coincidences”* are signs that point to the existence of a creating intelligence, but they are only signs, not proofs…Science is inductive/empirical and in that sense none of the results of science are “proof” in the sense that the term applies to mathematics or philosophy. The caloric theory was disproved by Count Rumford’s measurements of heat produced by boring cannons; the ether was disproved by the Michelson-Morley experiments; quantum mechanics and relativity may be disproved in the future by experiments we can’t imagine (although I think this unlikely, it certainly is possible).
*I prefer that term to “anthropic principle” and it would be even better were it called “biotropic coincidences”, coincidences that favor a carbon based biology.
 
I think you would be basing faith on very weak premises. The “anthropic coincidences”* are signs that point to the existence of a creating intelligence, but they are only signs, not proofs…Science is inductive/empirical and in that sense none of the results of science are “proof” in the sense that the term applies to mathematics or philosophy. The caloric theory was disproved by Count Rumford’s measurements of heat produced by boring cannons; the ether was disproved by the Michelson-Morley experiments; quantum mechanics and relativity may be disproved in the future by experiments we can’t imagine (although I think this unlikely, it certainly is possible).
*I prefer that term to “anthropic principle” and it would be even better were it called “biotropic coincidences”, coincidences that favor a carbon based biology.
The kicker, then: What would you consider a good reason to believe in God?
 
The kicker, then: What would you consider a good reason to believe in God?
There are lots of philosophical /theological proofs: Anselms Ontological Proof/ Aquinas Five Proofs for God/ the Proofs mentioned in Fr. Spitzer’s book, “New Proofs for the Existence of God” (see magisreasonfaith.org/

Now the great mathematician/physicist /theologian Blaise Pascal (he of “Pascal’s Wager”) maintained that God was infinite and we could not know him by reason (I think this is correct, but we can prove that he exists by reason). He achieved faith by a mystic experience after a carriage accident, and mystical experiences are one way many people come to faith (the prime example being St. Paul on the road to Damascus). So top down (by reason), through the heart (by revelation) or ???
 
Hm, interesting Anselm33.

So you believe the ontological proof works? It’s a proof that has been extensivly criticized and even rejected by Saint Thomas.
 
Hm, interesting Anselm33.

So you believe the ontological proof works? It’s a proof that has been extensivly criticized and even rejected by Saint Thomas.
There are other versions of the ontological proof; that by Leibniz, and more recently there has been an article about a mathematical/logical proof by the famed mathematician Kurt Godel (he of Godel’s incompleteness theorem). Seefaqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html
and the thread “The God of the Mathematicians”. There is also a current thread on Anselm’s ontological proof, and I’m sure you and the people talking there know much more about Anselm’s proof and philosophy than I do 😉
 
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