M
MMG
Guest
Please pray for the churches (protestant) that are now being built without a cross. The new theology with that is that they do not want to scare people away from church. It is less intimidating to non-believers. ???
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P
Psalm45_9
Guest
Easy way to explain:
We don’t have crucifixes because we believe he is still on the cross, we have them because they remind us of what he did.
The cross is a symbol of death, the Roman sentence of a capital offence. What is the point of a cross that doesn’t have Jesus on it? Jesus gave the cross new meaning. All these people who have a problem with us re-presenting Calvary via the crucifix, I hope you didn’t pay money to see The Passion of the Christ, why reflect on his passion, why keep him on the cross?
We don’t have crucifixes because we believe he is still on the cross, we have them because they remind us of what he did.
The cross is a symbol of death, the Roman sentence of a capital offence. What is the point of a cross that doesn’t have Jesus on it? Jesus gave the cross new meaning. All these people who have a problem with us re-presenting Calvary via the crucifix, I hope you didn’t pay money to see The Passion of the Christ, why reflect on his passion, why keep him on the cross?
P
Philthy
Guest
Lillith-
Thank you for sharing your wonderful treasure…
I’ve dealt with this issue on these forums a few times. The alleged arguments for the “empty cross” are very thinly guised attacks on Catholic theology. And they hold absolutely no water. Why the empty cross? “Oh because it better portrays the reality of the risen Christ” they will say. Ridiculous I say. Just in case anyone needs reminding, Christ did not rise from the Cross - he rose from the tomb. The empty tomb is the icon they should be supporting. But they are not. They are attacking the Crucifix because it is Catholic. They think that because we celebrate the Mass as a re-presentation of the “eternal sacrifice” of Christ that we don’t realize Christ is risen! They think we believe he is still “on the cross” suffering for us…It’s a spillover from the whole faith/works issue. Because we believe we should cooperate with Gods grace in our lives through good works they think that we somehow believe that Christs “once for all sacrifice” was incomplete. Check out this exchange I had on the topic a few months ago…
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=16703
Ozzie:
when we started to pick your battles wisely - attempting to
criticize Catholics for wearing Crucifixes is simply foolish. I’ll state
it again: I don’t have a problem with people wearing crosses and
you shouldn’t have a problem with Crucifixes. Criticism of the crucifix
is (at least) foolish and (possibly) vengeful. I will, again, prove it from
your own argument that your logic above fails.
The problem with your argument is that it is DERIVED ENTIRELY
FROM CHRIST ON THE CROSS. “It was finished” with Christ
**ON **the Cross. Here, let me quote you: “There on the cross HE
FINISHED the work of redemption, reconciliation and propitiation…
“once for all.” No more sacrifice is ever required!!” Exactly Ozzie -
ALL ON THE CROSS. Nothing more perfectly represents ALL
OF IT, because ON the Cross is where it happened. If, as you say,
he finished it all ON the cross, why would you or I want to
remember it any differently by removing Him from it?
(He never answered this question BTW
)
Ozzie:
because the empty cross doesn’t stand on it’s own. But Paul has
no problem speaking of Christ crucified alone; " …I resolved to know
nothing…except Jesus Christ, and him crucified" 1cor 2:2.
Nothing you’ve said contributes one iota toward your illogical
dislike of the Crucifix. In fact, the empty cross is looking more
and more lacking.
Thank you for sharing your wonderful treasure…
I’ve dealt with this issue on these forums a few times. The alleged arguments for the “empty cross” are very thinly guised attacks on Catholic theology. And they hold absolutely no water. Why the empty cross? “Oh because it better portrays the reality of the risen Christ” they will say. Ridiculous I say. Just in case anyone needs reminding, Christ did not rise from the Cross - he rose from the tomb. The empty tomb is the icon they should be supporting. But they are not. They are attacking the Crucifix because it is Catholic. They think that because we celebrate the Mass as a re-presentation of the “eternal sacrifice” of Christ that we don’t realize Christ is risen! They think we believe he is still “on the cross” suffering for us…It’s a spillover from the whole faith/works issue. Because we believe we should cooperate with Gods grace in our lives through good works they think that we somehow believe that Christs “once for all sacrifice” was incomplete. Check out this exchange I had on the topic a few months ago…
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=16703
Ozzie - you are almost as stubborn as I am persistent! I told you
when we started to pick your battles wisely - attempting to
criticize Catholics for wearing Crucifixes is simply foolish. I’ll state
it again: I don’t have a problem with people wearing crosses and
you shouldn’t have a problem with Crucifixes. Criticism of the crucifix
is (at least) foolish and (possibly) vengeful. I will, again, prove it from
your own argument that your logic above fails.
The problem with your argument is that it is DERIVED ENTIRELY
FROM CHRIST ON THE CROSS. “It was finished” with Christ
**ON **the Cross. Here, let me quote you: “There on the cross HE
FINISHED the work of redemption, reconciliation and propitiation…
“once for all.” No more sacrifice is ever required!!” Exactly Ozzie -
ALL ON THE CROSS. Nothing more perfectly represents ALL
OF IT, because ON the Cross is where it happened. If, as you say,
he finished it all ON the cross, why would you or I want to
remember it any differently by removing Him from it?
(He never answered this question BTW
)
Even Paul has to edify the empty cross with the empty tomb
because the empty cross doesn’t stand on it’s own. But Paul has
no problem speaking of Christ crucified alone; " …I resolved to know
nothing…except Jesus Christ, and him crucified" 1cor 2:2.
Nothing you’ve said contributes one iota toward your illogical
dislike of the Crucifix. In fact, the empty cross is looking more
and more lacking.
P
Philthy
Guest
You can add nothing to it, Phil, nor can you subtract from it,
or you are quilty of violating it. And you must accept His FINISHED
work by faith.
Well, for the record Ozzie I didn’t add anything to the Cross and I haven’t removed anything from it either - some might argue that you have, but I won’t. As I said, I don’t have a problem with the cross vs crucifix issue. But here in your statement , finally, we can get a glimpse of where your illogical, misplaced distaste for the crucifix comes from: you judge the faith of others - particularly Catholics. You inject theological disputes into every aspect of Christianity. It’s not good enough that they are choosing to proclaim their belief in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior by wearing a representation of Good Friday around their neck. Oh no, not good enough because you know their heart- they need to have the empty cross because, well, that just means so much more. Think about how rediculous that is. It seems distinctly uncharitable to me. I hope I am wrong, but I don’t think so; I’ve been guilty of the same, and as the saying goes, “It takes one to know one.” I realize I’m coming on a little strong here Oz, but we really should be striving for unity, not division, and I really sensed that somehow rather than looking at it objectively you have allowed pride or some other bias to cloud your mind and your heart.
Phil
P
Philthy
Guest
Please read my previous post on this topic. The cross is a powerful symbol of the crucifixion of Christ. The empty cross, in no way, points anyone to the risen Lord. Why would it? Christ didn’t rise from it - he was taken down from it like every criminal that was ever been put up on it - including the two on the day of his crucifixion. How, exactly, does the empty cross, per se, distinguish itself from the crosses of those two thieves? It doesn’t. Unless Christ is on it - then there is no mistaking what we are talking about. Now don’t get me wrong, I don’t have a problem with the empty cross, its just that it doesn’t actually, visually symbolize anything more than a crucifix, but it may leave something out…
Phil
P
Philthy
Guest
And another thing
…
I dont know why this topic gets me going so…
The crucifix points to another reality that all of us, in our broken nature, like to ignore: just** how HOLY God is**, and how unholy we are.
It graphically depicts just how much he detests sin. Just look at what had to happen to someone perfectly righteous to reconcile us to God. HE IS HOLY!!!
Ya don’t get that from an empty cross now do ya?!
I think Im done…
Phil
…I dont know why this topic gets me going so…
The crucifix points to another reality that all of us, in our broken nature, like to ignore: just** how HOLY God is**, and how unholy we are.
It graphically depicts just how much he detests sin. Just look at what had to happen to someone perfectly righteous to reconcile us to God. HE IS HOLY!!!
Ya don’t get that from an empty cross now do ya?!
I think Im done…
Phil
P
Philthy
Guest
Psalm45:9:
In addition, the “sign of the cross” (which bypasses any attempt to “trace” Jesus on the cross) is also criticized and shunned - is it not essentially equivalent to the empty cross?
Phil
Absolutely correct! :yup: In addition, you would expect these same people not to hold Good Friday as a day of significance - yet they do. Hmmm, that’s a little hypocritical…no?
In addition, the “sign of the cross” (which bypasses any attempt to “trace” Jesus on the cross) is also criticized and shunned - is it not essentially equivalent to the empty cross?
Phil
G
Genesis315
Guest
Wow Lillith, what an awesome story!
The Crucufuxion is important because it is what redeemed man, while the Resurrection (of us too) is the fruits.
Let’s also remember Christ’s sacrafice is timeless and perpetual:
“…the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world.” (DR Apoc. 13:8)
Also check out this prophecy about the perpetual pure Sacrifice that would be offered in the Mass:
“For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.” (DR Mal. 1:11)
The Crucufuxion is important because it is what redeemed man, while the Resurrection (of us too) is the fruits.
Let’s also remember Christ’s sacrafice is timeless and perpetual:
“…the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world.” (DR Apoc. 13:8)
Also check out this prophecy about the perpetual pure Sacrifice that would be offered in the Mass:
“For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts.” (DR Mal. 1:11)
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Psalm45_9
Guest
Here are the real reasons why the “reformers” did not like crucifixes:
- Paranoia that “graven images” go against the 10 commandments.
- Belief that the mass is a sacrifice, making present to all the sacrifice of Calvary. (Which is why every Catholic Church has a crucifix in the sanctuary.)
It is really from reason 2 that the excuse, “Catholics believe Jesus is still on the cross.” came about. People who really don’t understand what the mass is.
However most people today associate that excuse with the corpus on the cross and they do not see the metaphore.
A
adventistnomore
Guest
Lillith, awesome testimony. Your story is so great…
Evangelicals should realize that towards the end of the first millennium, Christ was added to bare crosses to create the crucifix. The Church wanted to emphasize that the cross is not to be venerated apart from the Paschal mystery. They wanted to ensure it didn’t become an idol… hehe, how people forget.
Evangelicals should realize that towards the end of the first millennium, Christ was added to bare crosses to create the crucifix. The Church wanted to emphasize that the cross is not to be venerated apart from the Paschal mystery. They wanted to ensure it didn’t become an idol… hehe, how people forget.
M
Malachi4U
Guest
re(de)formed sects only from what I have heard. All Christians still loyal to Christ 100% and the Church he founded, His body, His visible and Catholic Church seem to have used the crucifix from a time BEFORE we even had a Bible!
He’s not there! It’s just a symbol and reminder of our Faith! Earth to crucifix haters? When your parents die do you rip their image out of your pictures since they go to heaven? Of course not! Pictures are just reminders just like a crucifix.
Why a cross? It is a weapon of death like a headmans ax! Why not use a spear or a mallat or a nail or a cat of nine tails or a crown of thorns, etc… The cross was a weapon of mass murder/killing just like if we used a symbol of a nuke. Jesus died for our sins not a cross. Jesus rose from the dead not a cross. Jesus will judge us not a cross. The cross is not important at all, Jesus is and He is EVERYTHING! We should just have the corpus and no cross at all if you want true meaning. Why not have an empty tomb as our symbol since Jesus rose from the dead there and not on the murder weapon cross? The cross by itself is like putting a hangmans noose or electric chair or needle, etc. by itself for a religious symbol (If Jesus were killed that way). Protestants use the augument of the corpus as bad because they have no foundation for their theological opinions that day. Jesus is important, the cross is just a tool for death. (By the way, I have crosses and crucifixes. I just wrote this to make a point.)
“forgive us our sins as we forgive others”
Don’t feel offended. Just pray for those who try to offend you.
Jesus rose from the dead so He is not stuck in some book either! Just another illogical Protestant point here. By the way, the crucifix doesn’t save anyone, your Faith will give you the hope and Jesus has promised you His Grace if you have Faith unto the end. A living Faith is proven by the works that flow out from it like figs on a tree. Faith is not in a book or in a symbol like the crucifix. Faith is in you. The Holy Spirit works in many ways to bring us closer to our Lord Jesus Christ.
By the way, no Christians were “saved” by the Bible for hundreds of years after Jesus rose from the dead. There was NO bible! Another Protestant illogical problem here. (i.e. saved = “HOPE” for salvation
)PS, If so many Protestants find the crucifix offensive since Jesus is no longer on it then why do they put pictures in Bibles with Him on the cross? Why do they have Easter pagents with Him on the cross? Need I go on about the double, illogical Protestant standard here?
PPS, Not all Protestants hate the crucifix or avoid it it. I refer only to the ones that do. One thing about Protestants, they don’t all believe the same thing. Burger King (have it your way) theology.
C
CalledtoServe
Guest
I love those Olympic stories where the athlete struggled and sacrificed in order to triumph. These victories are impressive because they give us hope that maybe just maybe we too can overcome our trials and triumph in certain areas of our life. How much more the sacrifice & victory of Jesus?
You cannot separate out the sacrifice from the victory for you cannot have one without the other.
You cannot separate out the sacrifice from the victory for you cannot have one without the other.
C
CalledtoServe
Guest
I often feel that people are afraid of appearing too Catholic.
J
Jennie
Guest
Lillith,
Awesome story
.
Awesome story
.
J
Jo_s_Dad
Guest
Peace be with you always Lillith.
Your story of the devotion to the crucifix is a true testimony of God’s grace and power.
My wife was also raised in an atheist household and it wasn’t until we were married that she began to hear the word of God. She was actually frightened to go to church because of the life she had lead as a teenager, and believed that God would send down a lightning bolt at her if she tried to enter his house.
I had to explain to her that it works more like School. You do not go to school to show off what you already know, you go to learn what you don’t. God calls not the righteous to repentance, but the sinners.
One of the biggest problems she had with going to church though, was the full crucifix. When it is displayed behind or above the alter, it scares her so bad she has to leave the service, and unfortunantly, still does even though she now understands it’s meaning, so I do understand the need for empty crosses, though my favorite is the Risen Crucifix.
The Crucifix is a reminder to us all what Christ endured for the redemption of our sins. We should always remember this and be grateful, and try not to fall back into the sin that Christ has absolved us of, whether it’s a full Crucifix or Cross.
God Bless
Your story of the devotion to the crucifix is a true testimony of God’s grace and power.
My wife was also raised in an atheist household and it wasn’t until we were married that she began to hear the word of God. She was actually frightened to go to church because of the life she had lead as a teenager, and believed that God would send down a lightning bolt at her if she tried to enter his house.
I had to explain to her that it works more like School. You do not go to school to show off what you already know, you go to learn what you don’t. God calls not the righteous to repentance, but the sinners.
One of the biggest problems she had with going to church though, was the full crucifix. When it is displayed behind or above the alter, it scares her so bad she has to leave the service, and unfortunantly, still does even though she now understands it’s meaning, so I do understand the need for empty crosses, though my favorite is the Risen Crucifix.
The Crucifix is a reminder to us all what Christ endured for the redemption of our sins. We should always remember this and be grateful, and try not to fall back into the sin that Christ has absolved us of, whether it’s a full Crucifix or Cross.
God Bless
B
badebop
Guest
Why did Jesus die? For the forgiveness of our sins, right? Well, where did he die? On the cross, right? What protestants fail to understand is that He’s still on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins.
S
starrs0
Guest
I LOVED your story Lilith I find the Crucifix to be a much better symbol of Christianity than the empty Cross it really gets the message across of how much God loves us and to what extents he was willing to go to motivated by that love to save us.
R
RonRule
Guest
Bingo. This goes for several other things as well–and then weak arguments are used for support. It’s reactionism, plain and simple. Raised a “bible christian”, I’m starting to learn all sorts of things that were avoided or ignored for this reason.
E
Elzee
Guest
Thank you! I’ve often been asked why Jesus asked us to partake of his blood since the blood was drained from the Passover lamb before eating its ‘body only’. I’ve never heard it explained this way before. Thank you!
J
jsussvsus
Guest
Hi Lillith
I loved your story, God works in amazing ways. Your question however is a perfect example of how we as Christians let our own personal beliefs or feelings keep us from being one church united under Christ. This is NOT a salvation issue but each of us have to say that our way is better than the others. I would be willing to bet that there is a story just like yours where someone who saw a cross wondered what it could be used for, and found Christ when he heard what it was. Reguardless of how God reaches us, be it a cross or a crucifix, all that matters is that we hear his call.
I am not Catholic but the more I see from this forum with Prots calling out Catholics and Catholics calling out Prots, I wonder if when we are standing before Christ the most overwhelming feeling we will have will be regret. I for one do not have a problem with you holding on to your crucifix as a sign of your comming to know Christ.
Thanks.
I loved your story, God works in amazing ways. Your question however is a perfect example of how we as Christians let our own personal beliefs or feelings keep us from being one church united under Christ. This is NOT a salvation issue but each of us have to say that our way is better than the others. I would be willing to bet that there is a story just like yours where someone who saw a cross wondered what it could be used for, and found Christ when he heard what it was. Reguardless of how God reaches us, be it a cross or a crucifix, all that matters is that we hear his call.
I am not Catholic but the more I see from this forum with Prots calling out Catholics and Catholics calling out Prots, I wonder if when we are standing before Christ the most overwhelming feeling we will have will be regret. I for one do not have a problem with you holding on to your crucifix as a sign of your comming to know Christ.
Thanks.
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