Problem with Transubstantiation

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“…I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine…”

Consider the sequence of event at the Last Supper, the Passover Meal.

He took the food in his hands
Gave thanks to his Father
Said “this is my body” and “this is my blood”
Gave THEM to eat of his body and blood
Then he said “…I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine…”

Notice, he did not eat his own body and drink his own blood. What would be the purpose?
But rather he said, “…I will not drink AGAIN of this fruit of the vine…”
Notice the word “again”. He didn’t drink his own blood with them as he passed it out for them to drink. So this refers to the Passover wine they shared before during the meal.

This is the last time in his EARTHLY body he will drink with them.
For when he rises from the dead, he has a glorified body of the new kingdom.
He didn’t say “I will drink it with you” but rather “I will drink it NEW with you”.
Meaning that he will be new in his risen body. His body will be different.

Just some thoughts.
Well the Lord’s Supper, ( received by all 12, including Judas ) …was the 3rd cup of Passover Meal, the Cup of Blessing. They did not complete the Passover Meal that night, leaving for Garden of Geth. w/o drinking the 4th Cup.
So, the Passover Meal was not completed until Christ drank the final, 4th Cup on Cross ( sour wine on sponge, …and then he could say “it ( the Passover Meal) is FINISHED”. Then, he died, as the Passover Lamb, slain for remission of All Sin.
 
Well the Lord’s Supper, ( received by all 12, including Judas ) …was the 3rd cup of Passover Meal, the Cup of Blessing. They did not complete the Passover Meal that night, leaving for Garden of Geth. w/o drinking the 4th Cup.
So, the Passover Meal was not completed until Christ drank the final, 4th Cup on Cross ( sour wine on sponge, …and then he could say “it ( the Passover Meal) is FINISHED”. Then, he died, as the Passover Lamb, slain for remission of All Sin.
Sounds good.
 
Attention all: This Sacrament is the Center of Our Lives as Catholics
Let’s get it right!

As faithful Catholics we are to believe with a Catholic faith all that is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This is our sure and principle guide to the Truth of Christ as guaranteed by the Holy Spirit who guides the Magisterium to all Truth in matters of Faith and Morals. The Scriptures are our guide only as interpreted by the Magisterium of the Church. In seeking to understand the Mysteries of the Faith we depend on the Magisterium of the Church over all else.

The teaching on Transubstantiation is quite clear in the Catechism.

At the consecration. the substances of the bread and wine ( and their forms as St. Thomas teaches) ares changed into the Whole Christ, body, blood, human nature ( his human body and soul) and Divine nature in the one Person of Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity.

The accidents of bread and wine are present but inhering in no substance - not in the substance of Christ nor in the substance of the bread and wine which have been changed into the body and blood of Christ.That the accidents can be present without a subject is another Miracle, because accidents, except this instance, require a subject in which to inhere. But more Miracles are coming!!

Christ is not present in the accidents but behind the accidents. Or you may think of the accidents as a " veil " covering the Holy of Holies as in the Temple of Jerusalem before Christ’s Crucifixion.

By defined teaching we also know that the Whole Christ is fully present in each particle of the bread or each drop of the wine which may be distributed and received bit by bit or drop by drop. We also know He is present in every consecrated host and cup at the same instant at any consecration occurring any where in the world at that moment and in each communicant throughout the world receiving at the same moment, or as He is reserved in every tabernacle throughout the world. These are obvious miracles. It is a Sacrament underscored by many miracles.

St. Thomas teaches what we mean by the Whole Christ and how He is present in even a single crumb or drop of the species. By the Whole Christ we mean His entire glorified body - limbs, parts and all bodily features and quantity as well. And these he explains are present " after the manner of the Sacrament. " This means His body is present in whatever manner is demanded by the type, dimensions and quantity of the species. But another factor may be at work as well and that is the Impassibility of Christs’ glorified body.

Christ is Present in the Sacrament in the same Glorified body He has at the Right Hand of the Father. It is a body impassible, that is it is not subject to the limitations of a body in our physical, limited, material world. As proven by Christ’s Resurrection and His presence among the Apostles the forty days before his Ascension, His body was not subject to the restrictions of physical matter existing in our material, limited world, as he could pass through walls and doors, eat or not eat, drink or not drink as he pleased. This Impassibility my account for some or all of the miracles of Christ’s Real Presence after the consecration.

It is important to keep all these things in mind when discussing the Eucharist.

Linus
 
Someone who is allergic to gluten will still experience wheat allergies after it becomes the Body of Christ. In the Mass, after the consecration, we say, “When we eat this Bread and drink this Cup…” It is a moot point to bring up Christ’s saying “fruit of the vine”. 🙂
So do they have Gluten free body of Christ in mass? LOL 😃
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. . . . . . . . . . On hearing it, many of his disciples, who were gluten intolerant, said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” Upon which Christ cried out: "NO NO NO COME BACK! THERE IS ALSO A GLUTEN FREE OPTION!!!
Seriously, though, how can you say transubstantiation occurs (meaning the substance changes into something else) when it can be scientifically proven otherwise?
“They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again.” - St Ignatius of Antioch (disciple of the Apostle John), Epistle to Smyrnaeans, Ch 7

“…being under the guidance of the Comforter, in obedience to the bishop and the presbytery with an undivided mind, breaking one and the same bread, which is the medicine of immortality, and the antidote which prevents us from dying, but a cleansing remedy driving away evil, that we should live in God through Jesus Christ.” - St Ignatius of Antioch (disciple of the Apostle John), Epistle to the Ephesians, Ch 20

Note: St Ignatius of Antioch was ordained a bishop the year Sts Peter and Paul were martyred (AD 67). St Ignatius died a martyr about (c. AD 108) ten years after the Apostle John passed away.
Augustine said:
“They said therefore unto Him, What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” For He had said to them, “Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto eternal life.” “What shall we do?” they ask; by observing what, shall we be able to fulfill this precept? “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He has sent.” This is then to eat the meat, not that which perisheth, but that which endureth unto eternal life. To what purpose dost thou make ready teeth and stomach? Believe, and thou hast eaten already.
Clement of Alexandria:
The Scripture, accordingly, has named wine the symbol of his sacred blood
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Augustine:
In a word, He now explains how that which He speaks of comes to pass, and what it is to eat His body and to drink His blood. “He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him.” This it is, therefore, for a man to eat that meat and to drink that drink, to dwell in Christ, and to have Christ dwelling in him.
 
So do they have Gluten free body of Christ in mass? LOL 😃

Seriously, though, how can you say transubstantiation occurs (meaning the substance changes into something else) when it can be scientifically proven otherwise?
This is a complete failure to understand the concept of accidents. Read Aristotle. My, oh my.

Also, I like your Church Fathers out of context. Here are the same Fathers speaking of the real presence, along with many more:

therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html#clement_a

Nice try, though.
 
I am not referring to it as a symbol, I am saying that it retains the substance of the bread and wine, it is consubstantial because that is what the passage above taught
When He said ‘This is My Blood’ it became His blood in substance, and lost any other substance it might have had.

He did not say ‘this is My Blood, but hey it is still somehow magically wine as well’. Wine (whether mixed with His blood or not) does not save us, wine (whether moxed with His blood or not) is not poured out for the remission of sins as He said the contents of that cup were to be poured.

It did NOT have the substance of wine at that point. If it did, then Paul would have been guilty of the grossest idolatry to suggest, as he did, that drinking common wine (whatever else it might be mixed with) could lead to our condemnation.
 
This is a complete failure to understand the concept of accidents. Read Aristotle. My, oh my.
Just looked up the concept of accidents on wikipedia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_%28philosophy%29#Aristotelian_substance_theory Aparantly it means if you have a wooden chair the pieces of wood have the accidental property of the chair, because the property of a chair is not intrinsically liked to pieces of wood.

The concept of accidents says the wood is still wood, but it is also a chair. The wood does not change into a chair, it is still wood.

The roman teaching on transubstantiation does not say the body and blood of Christ is made of bread and wine, but that the bread and wine BECOMES Christ. You are now placed under an eternal curse for saying otherwise, if the council of Trent has spoken the truth on this matter:

Also, I like your Church Fathers out of context. Here are the same Fathers speaking of the real presence, along with many more:

therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html#clement_a

Nice try, though.
How about trying to answer my arguments instead of dismissing them with a one line ipse dixit, and then wipeing even more (probably out of context) quotes over the top?

:mad:

As I see it, the quotes could hardly be more explicit in their rejection of transubstantiation. Therefore, it is your quotes that are ripped out of context. Augustine can refer to the body and blood of our Lord without believing in transubstantiation, but he can not say the things I quoted him as saying and believe in transubstantiation. Therefore, I interpret all his supposed afirmations of transubstantiation in the light of his explicit and emphatic denial of it.

I think it is you who is out of context. Explain to me exactly how I have taken these quotes out of context, what the fathers was actually trying to say.
 
Attention all: This Sacrament is the Center of Our Lives as Catholics
Let’s get it right!

As faithful Catholics we are to believe with a Catholic faith all that is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This is our sure and principle guide to the Truth of Christ as guaranteed by the Holy Spirit who guides the Magisterium to all Truth in matters of Faith and Morals. The Scriptures are our guide only as interpreted by the Magisterium of the Church. In seeking to understand the Mysteries of the Faith we depend on the Magisterium of the Church over all else.

The teaching on Transubstantiation is quite clear in the Catechism.

At the consecration. the substances of the bread and wine ( and their forms as St. Thomas teaches) ares changed into the Whole Christ, body, blood, human nature ( his human body and soul) and Divine nature in the one Person of Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity.

The accidents of bread and wine are present but inhering in no substance - not in the substance of Christ nor in the substance of the bread and wine which have been changed into the body and blood of Christ.That the accidents can be present without a subject is another Miracle, because accidents, except this instance, require a subject in which to inhere. But more Miracles are coming!!

Christ is not present in the accidents but behind the accidents. Or you may think of the accidents as a " veil " covering the Holy of Holies as in the Temple of Jerusalem before Christ’s Crucifixion.

By defined teaching we also know that the Whole Christ is fully present in each particle of the bread or each drop of the wine which may be distributed and received bit by bit or drop by drop. We also know He is present in every consecrated host and cup at the same instant at any consecration occurring any where in the world at that moment and in each communicant throughout the world receiving at the same moment, or as He is reserved in every tabernacle throughout the world. These are obvious miracles. It is a Sacrament underscored by many miracles.

St. Thomas teaches what we mean by the Whole Christ and how He is present in even a single crumb or drop of the species. By the Whole Christ we mean His entire glorified body - limbs, parts and all bodily features and quantity as well. And these he explains are present " after the manner of the Sacrament. " This means His body is present in whatever manner is demanded by the type, dimensions and quantity of the species. But another factor may be at work as well and that is the Impassibility of Christs’ glorified body.

Christ is Present in the Sacrament in the same Glorified body He has at the Right Hand of the Father. It is a body impassible, that is it is not subject to the limitations of a body in our physical, limited, material world. As proven by Christ’s Resurrection and His presence among the Apostles the forty days before his Ascension, His body was not subject to the restrictions of physical matter existing in our material, limited world, as he could pass through walls and doors, eat or not eat, drink or not drink as he pleased. This Impassibility my account for some or all of the miracles of Christ’s Real Presence after the consecration.

It is important to keep all these things in mind when discussing the Eucharist.

Linus
Ok Linus …

Good to see you wish to set us straight & explain the mystery of faith.

First off, you start speaking of ‘molecules’ / particles of bread & wine remaining …‘under which’ Christ resides. Sounds like Consubstantiation to me.

Next you speak of the Glorified Christ bring present in thr Eucharist. Yes,…

but not ALSO the Jesus who suffered on Cross, who shed that blood & body we receive ?
 
Just looked up the concept of accidents on wikipedia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_%28philosophy%29#Aristotelian_substance_theory Aparantly it means if you have a wooden chair the pieces of wood have the accidental property of the chair, because the property of a chair is not intrinsically liked to pieces of wood.

The concept of accidents says the wood is still wood, but it is also a chair. The wood does not change into a chair, it is still wood.

The roman teaching on transubstantiation does not say the body and blood of Christ is made of bread and wine, but that the bread and wine BECOMES Christ. You are now placed under an eternal curse for saying otherwise, if the council of Trent has spoken the truth on this matter:

How about trying to answer my arguments instead of dismissing them with a one line ipse dixit, and then wipeing even more (probably out of context) quotes over the top?

:mad:

As I see it, the quotes could hardly be more explicit in their rejection of transubstantiation. Therefore, it is your quotes that are ripped out of context. Augustine can refer to the body and blood of our Lord without believing in transubstantiation, but he can not say the things I quoted him as saying and believe in transubstantiation. Therefore, I interpret all his supposed afirmations of transubstantiation in the light of his explicit and emphatic denial of it.

I think it is you who is out of context. Explain to me exactly how I have taken these quotes out of context, what the fathers was actually trying to say.
Ok …you are on right track here…with the ( wood: chair) idea.

Now, lets take bread, of the Eucharist. (Wheat: Bread)

The wheat (with its gluten molecules) REMAINS…able to cause allergic reaction in recipient…but, the wheat & gluten is no longer just ordinary Bread. Thus, it is TRANSMUTATED…becoming Supernatural Christ (body, blood, soul, divinity). Both the body that suffered on Cross, and that SAME body that was resurrected and now INVISIBLE to our eyes.
We see the ordinary bread …but, receive the Supernatural Bread of Life…if we receive ‘rightly’ in faith, and properly disposed to receive Christ, via the Mystery OF FAITH !
 
Just looked up the concept of accidents on wikipedia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_%28philosophy%29#Aristotelian_substance_theory Aparantly it means if you have a wooden chair the pieces of wood have the accidental property of the chair, because the property of a chair is not intrinsically liked to pieces of wood.

The concept of accidents says the wood is still wood, but it is also a chair. The wood does not change into a chair, it is still wood.

The roman teaching on transubstantiation does not say the body and blood of Christ is made of bread and wine, but that the bread and wine BECOMES Christ. You are now placed under an eternal curse for saying otherwise, if the council of Trent has spoken the truth on this matter:

How about trying to answer my arguments instead of dismissing them with a one line ipse dixit, and then wipeing even more (probably out of context) quotes over the top?

:mad:

As I see it, the quotes could hardly be more explicit in their rejection of transubstantiation. Therefore, it is your quotes that are ripped out of context. Augustine can refer to the body and blood of our Lord without believing in transubstantiation, but he can not say the things I quoted him as saying and believe in transubstantiation. Therefore, I interpret all his supposed afirmations of transubstantiation in the light of his explicit and emphatic denial of it.

I think it is you who is out of context. Explain to me exactly how I have taken these quotes out of context, what the fathers was actually trying to say.
Transubstantiation is unique only to the Eucharist. Christ did not say that it was bread and His body. He said it was His body. That’s it. John 6 makes this painfully clear. St Paul declaring if we eat unworthily, we profane the body of Christ, expounds upon this teaching even further.

As for taking things out of context, how about you read Justin Martyr’s Apology to the emperor. Specifically chapters 65, 66, and 67. Then come talk to me about ‘out of context’.

newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

As for requiring me to explain what the Fathers meant, a real, physical event can also carry symbolism with it. Just as baptism is a literal washing away of sin by the Holy Spirit, so it is also symbolic of being made physically clean, as with water washing away dirt. Now you explain to me the quotes I presented. Also, explain what Justin meant when he said the bread literally ‘transmutes’ into the body of Christ. I am very curious to learn your interpretation.
 
Ok Linus …

Good to see you wish to set us straight & explain the mystery of faith.
First off, you start speaking of ‘molecules’ / particles of bread & wine remaining …‘under which’ Christ resides. Sounds like Consubstantiation to me.
Yes, I wanted everyone to get it straight because some on the thread do not have it down correctly.

Both the Catechism and St Thomas use the phrase " under which " Christ resides or words to the same effect.

Transubstantiation refers to the whole substance of the bread and wine being changed into the Whole Substance of the Whole Christ. That is how the Defined Dogma of the Church expresses it, except the Dogma uses " Body " and " Blood." But the Church teaches that where the Body and Blood are present, there is the Whole Christ.

I don’t understand the precise meaning of Consubstantiation so I won’t comment on that.
Next you speak of the Glorified Christ bring present in the Eucharist. Yes,…
but not ALSO the Jesus who suffered on Cross, who shed that blood & body we receive ?
Of course that is understood, I didn’t think there was a need to say that since it is not expressed in the formula of words defining the teaching. But yes, it is the same Christ who suffered and died. Absolutely. Linus
 
Would anyone care to opine what happened to the accidents of Jesus’s body?

If it is through accidents that a substance “communicates” itself to the senses - does the inability to sensibly perceive Jesus’s bodily presence means his accidents are missing?

Can a thing possess two completely differentg sets of accidents?
Aquinas never really comes completely clean on this point from my reading.

Perhaps Trent or later teaching clarifies the matter?
 
BH,

Well, there isn’t a question really of something possessing two sets of accidents because after the consecration the accidents of bread inhere in no substance whatsoever. So, we can take those accidents out of the equation.

As to Christ’s intrinsic accidents, Aquinas says they still adhere in Christ, but are undetectable to our senses because they are present in the manner of a substance and not in the manner of ordinary accidents.

It is a great question. I think there might be a tendency to think that because we speak of “the substance of Christ’s” body that this means only the substance is present. . . But this isnt really what the doctrine necessitates. It is clear, however that we don’t perceive Christ sensibly so that leads to questions how Christ is present (substance + accidents), a question which I think Aquinas answers.

VC
 
Would anyone care to opine what happened to the accidents of Jesus’s body?

If it is through accidents that a substance “communicates” itself to the senses - does the inability to sensibly perceive Jesus’s bodily presence means his accidents are missing?
The Body of Christ exists with its proper accidents only in Heaven. It exists in the consecrated host or wine under the accidents of bread and wine. This is how St. Thomas explains it in S.T., III, Q.76 Art.8:
Christ’s body under its proper species can be seen only in one place, wherein it is definitively contained. Hence since it is seen in its proper species, and is adored in heaven, it is not seen under its proper species in this sacrament.
Can a thing possess two completely differentg sets of accidents?
Aquinas never really comes completely clean on this point from my reading.

Perhaps Trent or later teaching clarifies the matter?
Both St. Thomas and the Council of Trent are clear on this. Christ has only one set of accidents, and they are not missing. They exist in heaven where His Body physically exists with its proper dimensions. The accidents of bread and wine that we see in the Consecrated Host and Wine are not Christ’s accidents. They were the accidents of bread and wine which miraculously remain even after the substance of bread and wine were changed (or converted) into Christ’s Body and Blood.
 
BH,

Well, there isn’t a question really of something possessing two sets of accidents because after the consecration the accidents of bread inhere in no substance whatsoever. So, we can take those accidents out of the equation.

As to Christ’s intrinsic accidents, Aquinas says they still adhere in Christ, but are undetectable to our senses because they are present in the manner of a substance and not in the manner of ordinary accidents.

It is a great question. I think there might be a tendency to think that because we speak of “the substance of Christ’s” body that this means only the substance is present. . . But this isnt really what the doctrine necessitates. It is clear, however that we don’t perceive Christ sensibly so that leads to questions how Christ is present (substance + accidents), a question which I think Aquinas answers.

VC
Thanks VC. I have never really had the impression that Aquinas himself was particularly ecstatic re his explantion of the visible absence of the proper dimensive accident of Jesus’s body in the Eucharist (it is essentially mediated by that of the bread - though one obviously cannot say Jesus’s body is fragmented or multiplied in the division or multiplication of the consecrated hosts themselves). He appears to only touch on this question extremely peremptorily in ST III, 76,4,o1 and even then almost by accident in answering a slightly different objection. I have not found any other reference in all his works to this question.

His explanation by reason of concomitance looks capable of a number of valid interpretations re substance/accidents.

I suppose the point comes when one has to ask oneself whether an explanation goes beyond a miracle and into the realms of logical contradiction of the terms/philsophy used in the first place.

Whenever a miracle is excluded a material “accident” always assumes the intrinsic “function” of being the means by which substances communicate their “sensible species” to sensible substances. it is hard to know if this flows by logical necessity from the definition of an “accident” as that “which exists in another” and hence makes a substance capable of moving from potency to act.

I suppose the question I am asking is, is it a contradiction in terms to say accidents may be present but function in the manner of a substance? Are they still accidents? Would it be less difficult, and still valid, to say that Jesus accidents are not really there?

Actually, I believe it is perfectly true to say that Jesus’s bodily accidents are not properly there (which is what concomitance is essentially saying).

Maybe it comes down to how “hard” we treat the word “properly”. If something does not exist in its proper mode can it be said to be “present”? I see a white crystalline cube and recognise it as sugar. But I do not see its sweetness. I infer its sweetness. Does that “sweetness” really exist if I can never get that cube into my mouth but am locked into the 2D world of sight only? Yes it exists in a theoretical sense, but is it fully “present” if that presence is but an inference of the mind (faith/reason).

Would a glorified person (e.g. Mary) see Jesus’s body sensibly in the Eucharist should she one day appear and kneel at mass with us? I do not think so. She may well “see” Jesus but this would probably be primarily through an operation of her graced soul overflowing into bodiliness - not via sensible species communicated through the eyes of her glorified body.

So, in the above sense, some would say Jesus’s body is not “fully present” in the Eucharist and there may be a grain of truth to it even if it appears to contradict literal dogmatic statements from Trent. Perhaps it would be more acceptable to say Jesus’s body (ie the accidents including dimension) are not “properly present” in the Eucharist. This is afterall what the principle of concomitance (and Aquinas) actually says.

Perhaps there are other acceptable explanations consistent with Aquinas. What if only the primary accident (quantity) of Jesus’s bodiliness was properly present? Sensible spatial dimensive-ness requires at least the first two accidents (quality and quantity) to exist as Aristotle and others affirm. This of course is but a musing.

Partly the problem may be secular use of modern English language - which signifies/identifies things by their mechanical functionality/appearances (accidents) rather than the inferred substances.

For most English speakers “not properly present” and “not fully present” amount to pretty much the same thing I suppose.

Anyhow, the above are just a few things I have mused upon over the years.
 
BH,

I can see you’ve thought about this issue before, and I am very interested in speaking more with you and perhaps you’ll be able to illuminate some of the the more difficult concepts.

This is a just a preamble, I haven’t read your post carefully yet, I just wanted to say I am looking forward to it!

VC
 
BH,

I can see you’ve thought about this issue before, and I am very interested in speaking more with you and perhaps you’ll be able to illuminate some of the the more difficult concepts.

This is a just a preamble, I haven’t read your post carefully yet, I just wanted to say I am looking forward to it!

VC
VC…

How would you explain the gluten allergy in the Eucharist, if the molecular substance of bread gluten is no longer present ?
 
Thanks VC. I have never really had the impression that Aquinas himself was particularly ecstatic re his explantion of the visible absence of the proper dimensive accident of Jesus’s body in the Eucharist (it is essentially mediated by that of the bread - though one obviously cannot say Jesus’s body is fragmented or multiplied in the division or multiplication of the consecrated hosts themselves). He appears to only touch on this question extremely peremptorily in ST III, 76,4,o1 and even then almost by accident in answering a slightly different objection. I have not found any other reference in all his works to this question.
That is interesting. Perhaps we can find some other texts that speak to it.
I suppose the point comes when one has to ask oneself whether an explanation goes beyond a miracle and into the realms of logical contradiction of the terms/philsophy used in the first place.
Whenever a miracle is excluded a material “accident” always assumes the intrinsic “function” of being the means by which substances communicate their “sensible species” to sensible substances. it is hard to know if this flows by logical necessity from the definition of an “accident” as that “which exists in another” and hence makes a substance capable of moving from potency to act.
I suppose the question I am asking is, is it a contradiction in terms to say accidents may be present but function in the manner of a substance? Are they still accidents? Would it be less difficult, and still valid, to say that Jesus accidents are not really there?
I think that is the right question. The way I approach it is to look at the basic sine qua non of “accident”, which is, I think, as you identified “exists in another” but further, in another as in a subject. I don’t see, at this point, any reason to posit that material accidents must mediate the substance to our intellect in order for it to fit in the category of “accident”. I say this because it seems to me that many accidents exist which are, as a matter of fact, NOT communicated to our intellect. Of course, these accidents are still sensible, we just aren’t sensing them at the moment. The problem, though, in the Eucharist is that the “accidents” that we are speaking of aren’t just “un-sensed” (like the redness of an apple in a shoebox) but that they are unable to be sensed at all, since they are present in an unheard of manner: “substantially present”.

But, to my way of thinking sensible accidents are only called sensible because our senses are ordered towards that kind of being. In other words, they are called sensible not because we sense them but because our sense faculty works on those kinds of things, IF our sense faculty ever gets a shot at them.
Actually, I believe it is perfectly true to say that Jesus’s bodily accidents are not properly there (which is what concomitance is essentially saying).
I agree.
Maybe it comes down to how “hard” we treat the word “properly”. If something does not exist in its proper mode can it be said to be “present”? I see a white crystalline cube and recognise it as sugar. But I do not see its sweetness. I infer its sweetness. Does that “sweetness” really exist if I can never get that cube into my mouth but am locked into the 2D world of sight only? Yes it exists in a theoretical sense, but is it fully “present” if that presence is but an inference of the mind (faith/reason).
Do you think Aquinas would say that it is present? Or at least, it is present objectively regardless of the limits of your ability to sense it?
Would a glorified person (e.g. Mary) see Jesus’s body sensibly in the Eucharist should she one day appear and kneel at mass with us? I do not think so. She may well “see” Jesus but this would probably be primarily through an operation of her graced soul overflowing into bodiliness - not via sensible species communicated through the eyes of her glorified body.
I agree. Actually Aquinas addresses this in an objection in a. 7 about whether or not “glorified eyes” can see Christ’ body in the sacrament.
So, in the above sense, some would say Jesus’s body is not “fully present” in the Eucharist and there may be a grain of truth to it even if it appears to contradict literal dogmatic statements from Trent. Perhaps it would be more acceptable to say Jesus’s body (ie the accidents including dimension) are not “properly present” in the Eucharist. This is afterall what the principle of concomitance (and Aquinas) actually says.
Perhaps there are other acceptable explanations consistent with Aquinas. What if only the primary accident (quantity) of Jesus’s bodiliness was properly present? Sensible spatial dimensive-ness requires at least the first two accidents (quality and quantity) to exist as Aristotle and others affirm. This of course is but a musing.
I’ll have to think about this more and perhaps ask some questions later to clarify what I am understanding you to say. Provisionally, I would be slow to surrender the idea of all the intrinsic accident being there. This is because, to me, the notion of a body requires at least an internal kind of relation/position so that we can, even conceptually, distinguish one part from another (i.e. eyes go on head, feet on legs). Without that, I’m not sure “body” makes much sense. I think Aquinas mentions this kind of internal dimension. . . or maybe Cajetan?

This is pretty rushed, so I reserve the right to make additions and corrections! (And will admit of course to just blundering too). Any thoughts?

VC
 
VC…

How would you explain the gluten allergy in the Eucharist, if the molecular substance of bread gluten is no longer present ?
brb3 Your difficulty prob comes through a mistaken understanding of the scholastic philsophy used.

In modern parlance, all the mechanical, function al and therefore chemical molecules/properties of a thing are communicated through its (Aristotelian) “accidents”.

As the accidents of bread remain the accidents of gluten remain and have their usual effects (both nutritive and allergic) on other (human) substances.
 
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