Problems Believing Our Lady of Fatima

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Hi ethereality,

I don’t have much time to respond in full, but I want to compare what Lucia relayed from the Blessed Virgin:
Pray, pray a great deal, and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because they have no one to sacrifice and pray for them.
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to your paraphrase of that comment from the Blessed Virgin:
If you don’t offer sacrifices, someone will go to hell because of you
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I have a problem with your paraphrase if it’s intention is to apportion a strict causality to the person who refuses to sacrifice for the other persons damnation i.e. “because of you”. This is like saying that if I don’t volunteer for a suicide crisis helpline during my spare time that I am therefore responsible for some people who kill themselves - because, after all, chances are if I did help out, I might save someone from ending their life.

So how do we reconcile that with the Blessed Virgin’s comments, and her use of “because”? I think we can do so by realising that “because” doesn’t need to denote, in philosophical parlance, a necessary and sufficient condition for something to occur. For instance, I can say that there are many people in prison today because there is a high rate of family breakdown - and I would be expressing a truth. If marriages were universally more stable I think it would be the case that less souls would be in prison. But I would not be saying that the overriding reason Bob is in prison is because his mum and dad broke up, and therefore they are to blame for him ending up there - it was Bob’s choices that landed him in prison. Likewise with Mary’s use of “because” - any other reading I believe would undermine our notion of free will.

Anyway I hope that clears up what I was trying to get at. God bless you
 
ethereality said:
Another problem, from page 123 of Walsh’s account, Our Lady of Fatima says, Walsh includes the footnote (after a line about the Lady’s departure), “This is Lucia’s recollection of the conversation, Memoir IV, p. 40.”

What does this make of free will, and of Jesus’ actions and the Church’s mission? Again, it strikes me like, “If you don’t offer sacrifices, someone will go to hell because of you,” a certain oppressive doctrine that seems to stifle joy from life. It seems too much to bear. Really? People will go to hell if we don’t make sacrifices? Not just offer the suffering we experience, but make them, bringing suffering upon ourselves like wearing hair shirts like the children did (that is, tying a coarse rope around their waist)?

And what of the Divine Mercy from St. Faustina Kowalska? How can we understand free will and intercession? How is Our Lady’s statement supposed to be understood?

It strikes me as possibly demonic because the implication seems to be: God’s not in control. You are. If you make sacrifices and pray for them, they’ll go to heaven. If you don’t, they’ll go to hell. This is the implication of the statement: they go to hell because no one is making sacrifices and praying for them – that they go to hell because of our lack of action, not because of their own actions. Even if it’s a matter of both/and, not either/or, how is it right to say, “This person is a criminal, therefore you should suffer”?

Am I misunderstanding something? What am I missing? What are your thoughts?
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I am so glad this question was asked, because I am wondering the exact same things about this apparition. Your concerns were clearly put forth, and no one seems to be addressing them very well. To add to yours, I question the part where Jesus is deeply offended and it is only Mary staying his wrathful hand. And I agree that the part where the children whip themselves and wear the ropes is disturbing. Why would Mary not tell them that this is not what she wants them to do? I am new to Catholicism and just started RCIA, but I have studied tons of literature about Mary and pray the Rosary several times a week, and in my experience, this apparition just doesn’t sound like Mary. And theologically, while our prayers for those in purgatory do help, we have no direct power over whether someone else goes to heaven or hell.
 
Pray, pray a great deal, and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because they have no one to sacrifice and pray for them.
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I sent a message to Fr.Vincent Serpa about this very issue…he basically said that Mary was just telling the children of the importance to pray for others and offer sacrifices for others in a way that the children could understand. Mary wasn’t making a dogmatic statement, just bringing the mystery of salvation and the ways we have of participating in the salvation of the world down to a kid-sized level of intellect. They were simple people, not theologians. so she told them in a simple and unnuanced way.

That is really the best and most logical explanation I have ever heard.
 
jumpfrog said:
I sent a message to Fr.Vincent Serpa about this very issue…he basically said that Mary was just telling the children of the importance to pray for others and offer sacrifices for others in a way that the children could understand. Mary wasn’t making a dogmatic statement, just bringing the mystery of salvation and the ways we have of participating in the salvation of the world down to a kid-sized level of intellect. They were simple people, not theologians. so she told them in a simple and unnuanced way.
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I agree with this. Also remember that the children recounted Mary’s words later, relying on their memories. I’m sure that what they recounted was essentially accurate, but still they were using their own words, not necessarily repeating Mary’s words verbatim. And of course they did not speak English, so it is possible that some nuances were lost in the translation from Portuguese.
 
I believe it 100% and that Mary will crush the Devil’s head.

I believe that God is one God in both testaments, and He is both Justice and Mercy, and I also believe piety and prayer are important so I have no problem… I can see how someone with a modern conception of God can have a problem though.
 
Yes, and it’s one of my favorite devotions. I’ve read Walsh’s book at least 4 times.
 
Genesis 3:15 is called the Proto-Evangelium, or pre-Gospel. God Himself curses Lucifer and his seed with the enmity of the Woman & Seed. This Woman & Seed mandate was widely incorporated into orthodox law and custom in the ancient world, and is still culturally extant in things like the Hebrews accounting their lineage through the mother only.

Father William G. Most used to ask, “Why was Jesus Jewish?” In other words, why was Jesus Christ One of the Chosen People, and qualified to forensically confect the long-promised New & Eternal Covenant? Father Most’s answer? “Jesus was Jewish because Mary was Jewish.” This is the Woman & Seed formula of the Proto-Evangelium. This is the familial heart of the Good News. We are family, an assertion that scandalized those who heard Christ calling to “Abba.”

In John’s Apocalypse 12 it says, “A great sign appeared in the heavens; a woman clothed with the Sun…” Father Thomas McGlynn, who created the marble statue of Our Lady under the direction of Sister Lucia, made her gown wavy to denote Lucia’s assertion that her gown was as bright as the Sun. The Fatima apparitions fulfill John 12’s “great sign.” In it, the Woman & Seed are persecuted, with her “other children” being persecuted as well. Why are Catholics ingrafted, adopted into the Chosen People? Because we are the Virgin Mary’s “other children” in Apocalypse 12.

Under her title of Our Lady of the Rosary, the Virgin Mary appeared to three peasant children in Fatima, Portugal, in 1917. This was preceded by the apparition of the Angel of Peace, who later helped shape their formation in prayer and fasting. Christ Himself told apostles vexed by not being able to drive out devils, “This kind goes not out except by fasting.” Christ taught the necessary efficacy of fasting to conquer Satan.

Our Lady’s singular message? “God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.” Created sinless as Eve in her Immaculate Conception, it is the Virgin Mary’s faith response flowing from her perfect purity of intent, her Immaculate Heart, that kept her sinless, and what God wishes to exalt. “Do whatever He says.” Hear and obey in love.
Here’s Sister Lucia’s autobiography:
amazon.com/Fatima-Lucias-Words-Lucia-Santos/dp/0911218106
 
There is no “Our Lady of Fatima” or “Our Lady of Lourdes” and one misfires from the first in adopting this widespread pop cultural language. Our Lady of the Rosary repeatedly asked the three seers, and us, “Pray the daily Rosary for peace.” We interface our lives with Christ’s through the eyes of one who had the most perfect faith formation, and with her we “ponder these things” in our hearts.

What standard has to be met? Will it matter to your faith? Is this a “pearls before swine” exercise? Will explaining the Biblical and Church consonance of: Our Lady’s divine messages in her appearances to the children; her foretold Miracle of the Sun seen by 100,000; her accurate prophecy regarding the errors of Russia leading to the “annihilation of nations”; and her promised period of peace with the requested episcopal consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart; matter to people who are jaded? If somebody is mad at God Who will chose to limit His justice and temper it with mercy because of our fasting and praying, any further response is a fool’s errand.

Yes, one may note that angelic visitations can include fallen angels, arguably the case with two notable angelic apparitions in two religions today that promote or first promoted “child brides” and polygamy. May we actively protect children and monogamy. Seems obvious if that’s where Satan attacks. But our Creator from the first has notified and informed us of the Woman & Seed mandate, and told us 2,000 years ago through John that there would be a miracle of the Woman (capitalized here as the Genesis 3:15 title Christ used exclusively in speaking of His mother) appearing in the sky clothed with the Sun.

Most High God, we ask all those priests now in Your eternal Kingdom who embraced the message of the Fatima apparitions, including that household of eight priests who survived to old age the 1945 nuke in Japan, sculptor Father Thomas McGlynn, peasant-scholar Father John deMarchi, Pius XII and all other prelates now joining You in Heaven, to shepherd us still, and to “enlighten the eyes of our hearts” and move us to understanding Your divine will that we may lovingly hear and obey, as Your ways are not our ways. Thanks. AMEN
 
AndyT_81 said:
This is like saying that if I don’t volunteer for a suicide crisis helpline during my spare time that I am therefore responsible for some people who kill themselves - because, after all, chances are if I did help out, I might save someone from ending their life.

So how do we reconcile that with the Blessed Virgin’s comments, and her use of “because”? I think we can do so by realising that “because” doesn’t need to denote, in philosophical parlance, a necessary and sufficient condition for something to occur. For instance, I can say that there are many people in prison today because there is a high rate of family breakdown - and I would be expressing a truth. If marriages were universally more stable I think it would be the case that less souls would be in prison. But I would not be saying that the overriding reason Bob is in prison is because his mum and dad broke up, and therefore they are to blame for him ending up there - it was Bob’s choices that landed him in prison. Likewise with Mary’s use of “because” - any other reading I believe would undermine our notion of free will.
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These are excellent analogies.

I just wanted to add that, while, as many have said, no one is required to believe in a private revelation, and Fatima is not therefore Catholic dogma, there is a flip side to that coin that Catholics ought to respect:

The Church *has *declared that there is nothing demonic, nothing heretical, in these apparitions. That is, all the theological questions that the OP is wrestling with have been analysed in detail by expert theologians, bishops, and (in the case of Fatima particularly so) popes. They all agree that there is nothing contrary to the faith in what has been reported of these apparitions.

Therefore, while no Catholic should feel obliged to believe in this or any other private revelation, I think it is *also *true that no Catholic can presume to call it demonic or even potentially demonic.

That said, there’s nothing wrong with the OP questioning the theological content of the visions, and asking whether it really does match up with Christian truth! It is only by asking such questions that we can learn the answers. (Rather like asking how Our Lady can be called “ever-Virgin” when the Lord’s “brothers” are mentioned in Mark 3:31–it’s a legitimate question, to ask what the explanation is, but it would be going too far to take the position that the Church’s explanations are false.) Therefore I encourage the OP to think about these things seriously, but to take seriously the fact that, as in the post I quoted above, there are good explanations to all the difficulties. The Fatima visions would never have received the strong papal support that they did if every aspect of them had not been vetted and tried carefully in the crucible of truth.
 
nordskoven said:
There is no “Our Lady of Fatima” or “Our Lady of Lourdes” and one misfires from the first in adopting this widespread pop cultural language.
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I’m under the impression that when the Church decided to comment on the events at Fatima, they used the term “Our Lady of Fatima” to refer to Mary who appeared to the children.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

Here’s a quote from the Vatican’s site:
In order that the faithful may better receive the message of Our Lady of Fatima, the Pope has charged the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith with making public the third part of the “secretâ€, after the preparation of an appropriate commentar.
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Maybe I missed your point. Is your point in line with the Church’s discussion regarding Fatima?
 
TuAutem said:
These are excellent analogies.

I just wanted to add that, while, as many have said, no one is required to believe in a private revelation, and Fatima is not therefore Catholic dogma, there is a flip side to that coin that Catholics ought to respect:

The Church *has *declared that there is nothing demonic, nothing heretical, in these apparitions. That is, all the theological questions that the OP is wrestling with have been analysed in detail by expert theologians, bishops, and (in the case of Fatima particularly so) popes. They all agree that there is nothing contrary to the faith in what has been reported of these apparitions.

Therefore, while no Catholic should feel obliged to believe in this or any other private revelation, I think it is *also *true that no Catholic can presume to call it demonic or even potentially demonic.

That said, there’s nothing wrong with the OP questioning the theological content of the visions, and asking whether it really does match up with Christian truth! It is only by asking such questions that we can learn the answers. (Rather like asking how Our Lady can be called “ever-Virgin” when the Lord’s “brothers” are mentioned in Mark 3:31–it’s a legitimate question, to ask what the explanation is, but it would be going too far to take the position that the Church’s explanations are false.) Therefore I encourage the OP to think about these things seriously, but to take seriously the fact that, as in the post I quoted above, there are good explanations to all the difficulties. The Fatima visions would never have received the strong papal support that they did if every aspect of them had not been vetted and tried carefully in the crucible of truth.
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I hope the OP has read messages #23, 24, 27, and 28 as they give very good insights.

It is good to be aware that human seers can give their impression of private revelations with a lot of static and perhaps some misinformation, no matter how much good will and holiness they have.

It was pointed out to me that St. Catherine of Siena once thought that the Blessed Virgin told her that she was not immaculately conceived. (without original sin). Obviously St. Catherine was wrong.
 
ethereality said:
Again, it strikes me like, “If you don’t offer sacrifices, someone will go to hell because of you,” a certain oppressive doctrine that seems to stifle joy from life. It seems too much to bear.
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Truly, we’re called to a life of sacrifice and penance. Is this a joyless life we’re called to?

Think: the first Christians were ecstatic as they were crucified, flayed, skinned, beheaded, devoured by lions, set aflame, etc. St. Thomas More in a little treatise on the Four Last Things said that they didn’t merely bear these sufferings patiently; they had a real spiritual pleasure in these most horrendous pains.

Will a life of penance and mortification leave us feeling deprived? Has the man who continually indulges his flesh found a better source of joy than the man who does God’s work? No way! The man who forsakes human consolations will be consoled by God Himself and His angels (Thomas a Kempis).
 
The address by “Cardinal Angelo Sodano” (sic) quoted in the Vatican document uses the phrase, “Our Lady of Fatima” which is a great forfeiture of understanding compared to her title “Our Lady of the Rosary.” Plenty of history there; and victory. One is to use the format of addressing a cardinal like this: “Angelo Cardinal Sodano.” So no great scrupulosity seems to hold here.
 
nordskoven said:
There is no “Our Lady of Fatima” or “Our Lady of Lourdes”
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I think you need to inform the Church of this.

The Church celebrates the Feast of Our Lady of Fatima on May 13th and the Memorial of Our Lady of Lourdes on February 11th.

The next thing you will tell me is that there is no Our Lady of Mount Carmel.

By the way, I have not voted in this poll.

There is no option for where I am with this, I neither believe nor disbelieve as it has nothing to do with my spiritual life.
 
I believe most of the problems in the Church today are here because people do not listen to the Mother of GOD. You cannot ignore the Woman and say you are obedient to Christ Who said behold your Mother and Honor thy Mother and Father.

I want to thank all who did not listen to Our Lady of Fatima for allowing WWII.
Will you listen to Our Lady of America today?

The Lukewarm will be spit out, and the Year of Mercy is not going to last forever.
GOD’s blessing be upon HIS people.

Raise the Lord Jesus Christ!
 
Fatima really makes me lose and question my faith. What if I’m wrong? What if me and my family are destined to burn in hell for all eternity? I can’t accept Mary saying "only I can help you. "
 
Wow, old thread … but the poll is interesting … over 60% voted 10 … and I’m in that group.
 
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