Problems facing the Church

[Elisabeth_Luisa]

Hi

I’m a convert, and I was hoping someone could give me advice - how do you deal with the lack of orthodoxy in many parish, the open disobedience of some priests/bishops/nuns, the liturgical abuses since Vatican II, the scandal of some ecumenism (Assissi I and II, for instance), RCIA instructors who don’t teach the faith, etc. I know that the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church but sometimes I feel almost a sense of despair about the state the Church is in and I wonder how can such things happen? I know I am versed in theology, and I don’t mean to sound judgemental, but it concerns me greatly. Here in England, our bishops almost seem embarassed by the faith - one tried to allow a Methodist minister to be ‘ordained’ in Liverpool Cathedral, and the Archbishop of Westminster responded to the instruction on Summorum Pontificum by saying that our seminaries definitely will not be teaching the traditional mass or Latin. My parish priest told me he didn’t know why people prayed the rosary, and we have questionable homilies at least every two weeks. It seems (I know it cannot be, but it seems like it nevertheless) that the gates of hell are prevailing sometimes, and I know I shouldn’t worry so, but I do - does anyone have any advice?

 

[Te_Deum]

does anyone have any advice?

Turn to Our Lady’s psalter and frequent visitations to the Sacraments. If you see a liturgical abuse: rosary. Another scandal involving a bishop: rosary. Poor catechesis: rosary. Turn to Our Lady for comfort in these times and you will not be disappointed. Envelop yourself in the mantle of this wonderful Queen and Mother to find Christ and comfort and continually beg her for her intercession for the Church and the world.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

I think it is a modern concern to try to fix everyone else, like there would be more effectiveness in our prayer if everyone else did the same thing that I did.

Jesus to St. Faustina:

My Heart overflows with great mercy for souls and especially for poor sinners… I desire to bestow my graces upon souls [from the tabernacle] but they do not want to accept them. You, at least, come to Me as often as you can and take these graces they do not want to accept. In this way you will console my Heart (Diary, 367).

Others may do everything that looks right but may still be reticent to accept His Grace. We do what we can where we are.

 

[kozlosap]

Elizabeth - if you are a convert, what basis (experience) are you using to judge the current state of the Church VS the past? I would suggest that you attend different parishes in your area to find one that doesn’t seem so scandalous to you. What you consider “orthodox” might be totally different from another’s POV!

Hi

I’m a convert, and I was hoping someone could give me advice - how do you deal with the lack of orthodoxy in many parish, the open disobedience of some priests/bishops/nuns, the liturgical abuses since Vatican II, the scandal of some ecumenism (Assissi I and II, for instance), RCIA instructors who don’t teach the faith, etc. I know that the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church but sometimes I feel almost a sense of despair about the state the Church is in and I wonder how can such things happen? I know I am versed in theology, and I don’t mean to sound judgemental, but it concerns me greatly. Here in England, our bishops almost seem embarassed by the faith - one tried to allow a Methodist minister to be ‘ordained’ in Liverpool Cathedral, and the Archbishop of Westminster responded to the instruction on Summorum Pontificum by saying that our seminaries definitely will not be teaching the traditional mass or Latin. My parish priest told me he didn’t know why people prayed the rosary, and we have questionable homilies at least every two weeks. It seems (I know it cannot be, but it seems like it nevertheless) that the gates of hell are prevailing sometimes, and I know I shouldn’t worry so, but I do - does anyone have any advice?

 

[SouthpawLink]

Elisabeth,
Welcome! I would advise you to check out Fish Eaters, a Web site that addresses many of your concerns: fisheaters.com/

In particular, you’ll want to read the For Catholics section. I think the first four or five articles under the “Traditionalism & the Spirit of Vatican II” heading will prove to be very informative. I think this one would be right down your alley.

God bless!

 

[LittleFlower378]

Hang in there, I know it looks dim and you are grieving and that is good. I think prayer and a little bit of meek action would help.

 

[nickybr38]

Speaking as a fellow convert… the Catholic Church we read about in history books, the Church most of us fall in love with during our search… isn’t the Church we enter when we start attending parishes.

It’s kind of a hard blow to realize the Catholic Church you fell in love with isn’t the same as what the documents tell you it should be.

My only advice is to hang tough. Even if some members of the Church really seem to be letting us laity down we have to have faith that God will sort it out. This is HIS Church, and He’ll deal with things as He sees fit. In the meantime all we, as laity, can do, is to focus on being the Christians that Christ intends us to be.
‘Grant that others may become holier then I, provided that I may become as holy as I should…’ *- My favorite prayer ever.

 

[edwest2]

The Church has had similar problems in the past when certain errors crept in, like Arianism.

newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm

I was there before and after Vatican II. Believe me, I did not love God less after. Later, I found out the changes blamed on Vatican II were not authorized or even suggested by it.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Cider]

You have 2 options, keep looking for an orthodox parish with a good faithful formation program or sit through the less desirable program so you can come into the Church at the same time studying on your own.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Speaking as a fellow convert… the Catholic Church we read about in history books, the Church most of us fall in love with during our search… isn’t the Church we enter when we start attending parishes.

It’s kind of a hard blow to realize the Catholic Church you fell in love with isn’t the same as what the documents tell you it should be.

My only advice is to hang tough. Even if some members of the Church really seem to be letting us laity down we have to have faith that God will sort it out. This is HIS Church, and He’ll deal with things as He sees fit. In the meantime all we, as laity, can do, is to focus on being the Christians that Christ intends us to be.
‘Grant that others may become holier then I, provided that I may become as holy as I should…’ *- My favorite prayer ever.

The Catholic Church that is idealized “before Vatican II” never really did exist. Read some Church history, say around the period of the Reformation, and see how bad it had gotten before they finally called the Council of Trent. It was downright corrupt. And even earlier, heresies abounded which had to be dealt with. Looked at through the eyes of history, today is rather mild.

The Church on this earth has never been perfect and never will be. It’s had it’s moments of glory and it’s moments of infamy. It’s made up of sinners, what do we expect? Our hope lies in Christ who will never abandon this Church He started. He knew very well when He started it, what would transpire in it’s history, yet He loves it just the same. Keep your eyes on Jesus and the rest becomes more bearable. And try to look more realistically at the Church, not through rose-colored glasses.

 

[nickybr38]

The Catholic Church that is idealized “before Vatican II” never really did exist. Read some Church history, say around the period of the Reformation, and see how bad it had gotten before they finally called the Council of Trent. It was downright corrupt. And even earlier, heresies abounded which had to be dealt with. Looked at through the eyes of history, today is rather mild.

The Church on this earth has never been perfect and never will be. It’s had it’s moments of glory and it’s moments of infamy. It’s made up of sinners, what do we expect? Our hope lies in Christ who will never abandon this Church He started. He knew very well when He started it, what would transpire in it’s history, yet He loves it just the same. Keep your eyes on Jesus and the rest becomes more bearable. And try to look more realistically at the Church, not through rose-colored glasses.

You make quite a few assumptions, but that’s okay. People do that.

1. I am not looking through rose colored glasses. I am reading the Catechism and even that does not match with what I’m encountering in my parish.
2. I never said a word about Vatican II. I just said the Church I read about and the Church I encounter are NOT the same.
3. I AM reading the History of the Church (from the Didache series), the History of Christianity (by a respected Catholic author), and several other historical textbooks. I spend my days listening to Catholic lectures (from Ave Maria University and the Institute of Catholic Culture - I work twelve hour days, my employer let’s me listen to my MP3 Player so I do… ) I know quite a bit about Church history. But the Church I’m reading about had firm rules, and people willing to stand up and DIE for Truth… the Church I have been encountering (in my local parishes) does not have this same spirit. Nobody seems to know what Truth is, and nobody seems willing to embrace it. Everyone is too afraid to say: THIS is what I believe. They’re all too busy being ecumenical, too busy trying not to hurt feelings or ruffle feathers and quite frankly I find that maddening.

The issues I’m having may not be the same as the OP but I can certainly understand the sentiment of: “What the HECK is this? This isn’t the Church that drew me in!!!”

God brought me here. Catholics didn’t… but now I’m stuck with lukewarm, barely believing Catholics and it’s so very, very hard. This is NOT the Church family (my OWN parish, none others) that I would have chosen for myself but it’s the parish God sent me to.

 

[Skeptic92]

You make quite a few assumptions, but that’s okay. People do that.

1. I am not looking through rose colored glasses. I am reading the Catechism and even that does not match with what I’m encountering in my parish.
2. I never said a word about Vatican II. I just said the Church I read about and the Church I encounter are NOT the same.
3. I AM reading the History of the Church (from the Didache series), the History of Christianity (by a respected Catholic author), and several other historical textbooks. I spend my days listening to Catholic lectures (from Ave Maria University and the Institute of Catholic Culture - I work twelve hour days, my employer let’s me listen to my MP3 Player so I do… ) I know quite a bit about Church history. But the Church I’m reading about had firm rules, and people willing to stand up and DIE for Truth… the Church I have been encountering (in my local parishes) does not have this same spirit. Nobody seems to know what Truth is, and nobody seems willing to embrace it. Everyone is too afraid to say: THIS is what I believe. They’re all too busy being ecumenical, too busy trying not to hurt feelings or ruffle feathers and quite frankly I find that maddening.

The issues I’m having may not be the same as the OP but I can certainly understand the sentiment of: “What the HECK is this? This isn’t the Church that drew me in!!!”

God brought me here. Catholics didn’t… but now I’m stuck with lukewarm, barely believing Catholics and it’s so very, very hard. This is NOT the Church family (my OWN parish, none others) that I would have chosen for myself but it’s the parish God sent me to.

There are modern Martyrs, they just haven’t been recognised yet, I would argue that the Pakistani Minorities minister that was assassinated is a Martyr (and the Pakistan Bishops Conference agree, last I heard, they was campaigning for his Canonisation as a Martyr of the faith). If you want a more orthodox parish, look into either the FSSP, Priests associated with Opus Dei (there is more then you realise), Institute of Christ the King Soverign Priests, Franciscans, Dominicans, or younger Priests (they do tend to be more orthodox in their faith). Just remember brother, the Church is heavily varied, I’m lucky as my domicile parish is very orthodox, along with a community feel (which is expressed after Mass in the Parish Centre, instead of before and after Mass in the sanctuary!)

 

[Stylites]

. . . and I know I shouldn’t worry so, but I do - does anyone have any advice?

I would advise you to do what I do: Go to Mass to enjoy God’s presence rather than looking to nitpick with other parishioners or priests or theologians or bishops or councils. But then, I’m just an amateur Catholic who worships out of love rather than as a profession.

 

[edwest2]

The Catholic Church that is idealized “before Vatican II” never really did exist. Read some Church history, say around the period of the Reformation, and see how bad it had gotten before they finally called the Council of Trent. It was downright corrupt. And even earlier, heresies abounded which had to be dealt with. Looked at through the eyes of history, today is rather mild.

The Church on this earth has never been perfect and never will be. It’s had it’s moments of glory and it’s moments of infamy. It’s made up of sinners, what do we expect? Our hope lies in Christ who will never abandon this Church He started. He knew very well when He started it, what would transpire in it’s history, yet He loves it just the same. Keep your eyes on Jesus and the rest becomes more bearable. And try to look more realistically at the Church, not through rose-colored glasses.

The Catholic Church before Vatican II was not idealized, but it lived in our communities. One day, I saw a priest walking down the street holding something. I asked my mother and she said he was going to visit someone who was sick. The life we lived was much more connected to the Church. This was normal.

Peace,
Ed

 

[WFS5801]

I know quite a bit about Church history. But the Church I’m reading about had firm rules, and people willing to stand up and DIE for Truth… the Church I have been encountering (in my local parishes) does not have this same spirit. Nobody seems to know what Truth is, and nobody seems willing to embrace it. Everyone is too afraid to say: THIS is what I believe. They’re all too busy being ecumenical, too busy trying not to hurt feelings or ruffle feathers and quite frankly I find that maddening.

This is exactly what I ran into when converting to the True Faith. Had it not been for the SSPX (and now the FSSP) I would not have recognized the Catholic Church I read about – the one that attracted me by its certitude and clear teaching. And you’re not alone – even Pope Pius VI and Pope John Paul II spoke of confusion in modern Catholicism.

On June 30, 1968, at the close of the Year of Faith, His Holiness Pope Paul VI made a profession of the Catholic Faith, in the presence of all the bishops in Rome and hundreds of thousands of the faithful. In his introductory remarks, he put us on guard against attacks on Catholic doctrine which, he said, “give rise, as we regretfully see today, to trouble and confusion in many faithful souls.”

The same words crop up in an allocution of His Holiness Pope John Paul II on February 6, 1981: “Christians today, in large part, feel lost, perplexed, confused, and even deceived.” The Holy Father summarized the underlying causes of the trouble as follows:

“We see spread abroad ideas contrary to the truth which God has revealed and which the Church has always taught. Real heresies have appeared in dogma and moral theology, stirring doubt, confusion, rebellion. Even the liturgy has been harmed. Christians have been plunged into an intellectual and moral illuminism, a sociological Christianity, without clear dogma or objective morality.”
…
The faith was based on certitudes. The certitudes have been overturned and confusion has resulted. Let us take one example: the Church taught–and the faithful believed–that the Catholic religion was the one true religion. It was, in fact, established by God Himself, while other religions are the work of men. Consequently, the Christian must avoid all contact with false religions and, furthermore, do all he can to bring adherents of false religions to the religion of Christ.

Is this still true? Indeed it is! Truth cannot change–else it never was the truth. No new fact, no theological or scientific discovery–if there can be such a thing as a theological discovery–can ever make the Catholic religion any less the only means of salvation.

But now we have the Pope himself attending religious ceremonies in false religions, praying and preaching in the churches of heretical sects. Television conveys to the whole world pictures of these astonishing events. The faithful no longer understand.

sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/OpenLetterToConfusedCatholics/Chapter-1.htm

This is Modernism and it has invaded the Church.

In the conflict between different religions, the most that Modernists can maintain is that the Catholic has more truth because it is more living and that it deserves with more reason the name of Christian because it corresponds more fully with the origins of Christianity.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html

 

[WFS5801]

I would advise you to do what I do: Go to Mass to enjoy God’s presence rather than looking to nitpick with other parishioners or priests or theologians or bishops or councils. But then, I’m just an amateur Catholic who worships out of love rather than as a profession.

If the Mass causes confusion, leads nearly to despair and the questioning of one’s Catholic Faith – perhaps there is something wrong with the Mass. It is almost as if, in many parishes, the beauty of the Catholic Faith is purposely disfigured.

1. It remains for Us now to say a few words about the Modernist as reformer. From all that has preceded, some idea may be gained of the reforming mania which possesses them: in all Catholicism there is absolutely nothing on which it does not fasten…

Dogmas and their evolution are to be harmonised with science and history. In the Catechism no dogmas are to be inserted except those that have been duly reformed and are within the capacity of the people. Regarding worship, the number of external devotions is to be reduced…

Ecclesiastical government requires to be reformed in all its branches, but especially in its disciplinary and dogmatic parts. Its spirit with the public conscience, which is not wholly for democracy; a share in ecclesiastical government should therefore be given to the lower ranks of the clergy, and even to the laity, and authority should be decentralised…

he clergy are asked to return to their ancient lowliness and poverty, and in their ideas and action to be guided by the principles of Modernism; and there are some who, echoing the teaching of their Protestant masters, would like the suppression of ecclesiastical celibacy. What is there left in the Church which is not to be reformed according to their principles?

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_19070908_pascendi-dominici-gregis_en.html

The object of Religion, and especially of the Mass, is to build up your Faith – not make you question it. Certitude was the great attraction of the Catholic Church for me. What we see in the “diversity” of the Mass and the conflicting words and actions of the Bishops and even the Popes does not engender certitude – it causes confusion and harms the Faith.

 

[Stylites]

If the Mass causes confusion, leads nearly to despair and the questioning of one’s Catholic Faith – perhaps there is something wrong with the Mass. It is almost as if, in many parishes, the beauty of the Catholic Faith is purposely disfigured.

. . .

The object of Religion, and especially of the Mass, is to build up your Faith – not make you question it. Certitude was the great attraction of the Catholic Church for me. What we see in the “diversity” of the Mass and the conflicting words and actions of the Bishops and even the Popes does not engender certitude – it causes confusion and harms the Faith.

People easily confused have a shallow faith to begin with. If one’s faith is centered on the Certitude of when to stand-sit-kneel, and confusion and doubt and even despair result from visiting a parish where stand-sit-stand-kneel are the standards, then that’s a shame. Faith should rest upon God, and not upon the actions of others. As for the “conflicting words” of bishops and popes, I myself am not privy to them as they are not in my intimate circle of friends, so I cannot speak to that. I am only an amateur Catholic who worships out of love, and am too busy focusing my feeble mind on adoration rather than upon things which don’t concern me in my lowly station in life.

 

[colleensarah]

I get your frustration, and I share it. I think there’s a huge temptation to turn inward and be filled with anger and pride, even without realizing it.

Something that has helped console me a great deal, and I hope it will help you, too, is to realize that there really is much you can be doing to help. Because we are all united in the Church, when one sins, it hurts everyone. But, the exciting part is that when one does good, the whole Church reaps the benefits and graces. So I guess for me the big revelation was to realize that I can’t control the other parishioners, but I can shower them with graces by praying more often and more deeply, and by offering reparations. Like St. Paul said in Romans, we ought to be seeking to outdo and anticipate one another in honor and charity.

Finally, you can evangelize. The best way is to live your Catholicism cheerfully (which I know sounds all fine and dandy just looking at it, but it can be incredibly hard when you’re sitting at Mass and no one around you is paying attention or showing any awareness of the incredibly history and T/traditions we share). I understand the need to vent with like-minded people (aka, here at CAF), but when you’re at your parish, you can do a lot more good by simply engaging in respectful behavior and enjoying the Mass than by sulking, as much as the second option seems more natural at times.

From a fellow frustrated Catholic, keep fighting the good fight! The gates of hell truly never will prevail against the Church, so “Rejoice in hope, endure in affliction, persevere in prayer.”

 

[Incomplete]

I get your frustration, and I share it. I think there’s a huge temptation to turn inward and be filled with anger and pride, even without realizing it.

Something that has helped console me a great deal, and I hope it will help you, too, is to realize that there really is much you can be doing to help. Because we are all united in the Church, when one sins, it hurts everyone. But, the exciting part is that when one does good, the whole Church reaps the benefits and graces. So I guess for me the big revelation was to realize that I can’t control the other parishioners, but I can shower them with graces by praying more often and more deeply, and by offering reparations. Like St. Paul said in Romans, we ought to be seeking to outdo and anticipate one another in honor and charity.

Finally, you can evangelize. The best way is to live your Catholicism cheerfully (which I know sounds all fine and dandy just looking at it, but it can be incredibly hard when you’re sitting at Mass and no one around you is paying attention or showing any awareness of the incredibly history and T/traditions we share). I understand the need to vent with like-minded people (aka, here at CAF), but when you’re at your parish, you can do a lot more good by simply engaging in respectful behavior and enjoying the Mass than by sulking, as much as the second option seems more natural at times.

From a fellow frustrated Catholic, keep fighting the good fight! The gates of hell truly never will prevail against the Church, so “Rejoice in hope, endure in affliction, persevere in prayer.”

There’s so much truth in this post.

Also remember to continue prayers daily for all of our priests, bishops, and Pope.