Problems in the Church

[Oneofthewomen]

The idea for this thread came from a thread I started on the “Traditional Forum” titled “How do you receive the Body of Christ?”

The debate between receiving COTT vs. CITH was lively, and a comment was made, which I agree with,
that there are more pressing matters that the Church and the faithful should be working on, and a request was made to start a thread on what one of those issues may be.

So, hear goes…

As a Catholic who was away for most of my adult life, I returned to the Church 5 years ago. I will freely admit that I was pretty liberal (to put it mildly)in my beliefs, and actually had the notion in my head that I would get a degree in Theology & Pastoral Ministry and work from the inside to change the Church to what I thought it should be.

However, that was not God’s plan, and what happened was that through my studies, I realized that much of what I knew of Church was not what the Church really was, and the “Spirit of Vatican II” was a far cry from what the actuality was.

For me, the single biggest problem I see in the Church, or at least my little corner of it, is a lack of any meaningful faith formation programs that address “life-long faith formation”. This lack of foundational catechesis is, IMHO, the root cause of many of the other problems the Church is seeing.

I believe that every priest should be preaching on what the essentials of the faith are, that sin is very real, the need for frequent confession, and the gift of the Real Presence. I know many priests who are leery of preaching about sin and “the rules” for fear of offending and/or driving away parishioners. Or who a fearful that they are constantly under the microscope of the self-appointed “liturgy policy” who are just waiting to pounce over every little thing that they perceive as an “abuse”, whether it is or not.

Catholics are called to a higher standard. That standard needs to be taught with charity and enforced with love when needed to prevent abuses.

I will end with and analogy- if I join a country club, in addition to paying what usually amounts to a large sum of money to join, I agree to abide by the by-laws and rules of the country club. They are laid out for me and it is my responsibility to make sure that I know and follow these rules to make sure I remain a member in “good standing”. If I am willing to do this to play golf, why would I not be willing to do the same thing to enter the Kingdom of God?

But then again, I need to know what the rules are, which brings us right back the root of the problem-POOR CATECHESIS!

Comments, thoughts?

 

[ljubim]

I totally agree!! A lot of people, when trying to become more devout, have to hit the books and re-learn the faith, because we learn a lot of fluff from the pulpit and in CCD.

 

[melekali]

Agreed. That is one reason I teach so much in RCIA and Adult Ed classes in my parish (the primary reason is this is one of my gifts).

 

[daughterofgrace]

I share in your opinion about poor catechesis. Our children do not know what they believe! For example, the class of middle schoolers I teach in my parish did not know that Catholics were required to attend Confession once a year. This is just one of the basic tenets that these students did not know. These children are smart, but parents are not teaching the faith at home. They think that “magically” their children will learn everything they are supposed to know about Catholicism in an hour a week for a year. It doesn’t work that way. While I agree that quite a few of the CCD programs are weak, we must remember that it is our responsibility to continue these lessons at home. As CCD teachers, we must also supplement our lessons. While preparing for our lessons and seeing one that is weak, we should not be afraid to use outside materials. Kids know that Jesus will always love them; however, they are seeking a deeper relationship with him. If we stay at the surface level at CCD and children don’t receive proper instruction at home, then they will go throughout their lives not being spiritually fed. Please pray for the students, parents, and teachers involved in educating the faith.

 

[autdrew]

I am an adult convert (06) and I have to agree with you 100% on the catachesis & pastoral issues! I have been a member of numerous Bible studies & ecumenical groups as well as those specifically Catholic. In the 1st, the Catholics (if they came) never defended their beliefs from Protestant questioning and in the 2nd groups, the majority are converts! In talking to cradle Catholics, the most common response I have heard is they didnt see much of a point in life long catachesis. They had “checked their boxes” so to speak, so why do they need to keep learning all this stuff? They went to Catholic school, ccd, 1st communion class, some went to confirmation class, so whats the big deal? When asked to explain something like 1st communion, they couldnt. Basically its something we are supposed to do so we dont have to sit in the pews on Easter & Christmas. Now obviously they were kidding on that but it points to the larger problem of cultural Catholics, those brought in for their boxes to be checked and twice yearly Mass. I dont think they ever got an explanation on the reason we have Mass, why it is the same & why we dont have bands & scream & shout worship services that they see in other places. From my experiences, I can imagine someone going to Mass a few times a month for years & not ever learning any of the whys & dos & donts. Generic homilies about love, love, love & never any on sin. I went to Midnight Mass once & the priest took the opportunity to mention the evils of abortion in talking about the Holy Family. It was so surprising that my husband & I looked at each other in amazement. One woman actually exclaimed that she doesnt come to Church to hear anti abortion stuff! & was angry because it was “political”.
I dont see this is just a problem within the Church because we are each responsible for our own lifelong learning, as well as teaching our children. BUT, it does need encouragement & right formation. I can pick up a book claiming to be Catholic & come out with something wildly different because I dont know what they really teach. Thats where the Church needs a role.
I kind of agree that this is more of an issue than receiving the Eucharist in the hand/tongue debate. I respect the tradition & reasoning of the tongue & appreciate the hand. I just think it is more important for people to learn Why they are getting that wafer & not expect it as a right they get for showing up.
In this, I do appreciate the fellowship, adult Sunday school & Scripture studies done by many of our Protestant brethren. They may not have the fullness of the faith that we do, but they do have a reverence (some) that we dont (some)
I think that is more than 2 cents lol. This is a big topic in my house right now as my husband is content to be a box checker (also a convert) he changed his life & attends Mass weekly but doesnt do Scripture or spiritual reading etc.

 

[Melchior_1]

Agreed. That is one reason I teach so much in RCIA and Adult Ed classes in my parish (the primary reason is this is one of my gifts).

I’m the same way. And in addition to RCIA it’s also why I feel so strongly about working in Youth Ministry. You can imagine they don’t get properly educated about Catholicism in their schools.

 

[paperwight]

I share in your opinion about poor catechesis. Our children do not know what they believe! For example, the class of middle schoolers I teach in my parish did not know that Catholics were required to attend Confession once a year. This is just one of the basic tenets that these students did not know. These children are smart, but parents are not teaching the faith at home.

Well, it could be that the children aren’t being taught this at home because it is not true.

Confession once a year is for those who are conscious of mortal sin. It is not a blanket requirement for everyone.

 

[choy]

we need to get more people, especially teenagers, interested in learning about the faith

as a Catechist, i’m frustrated by the number of students in class.

 

[DOShea]

Each of the things mentioned in this topic so far, I have seen available at one parish or another, and for the most part they were not well attended. Adult continuing education, Bible study, etc. Same for priests who do include in their homily things like sin, hell, sanctity, and all the rest. These things ARE out there if one looks for them. Some programs are well run and get good attendance, while others equally well run don’t draw much of a crowd. I tend to think it’s more of an individual response or desire to learn more than a matter of programs not available.

If you are dealing with people who’s commitment to the faith consists of showing up at mass Christmas eve and Easter Sunday, you aren’t likely to alter that behavior by simply making education programs available. Not even if Fr. Whoever is up there preaching God’s word like Peter on Pentecost.

Dealing with kids who are not given any religious training at home, IMO, is slightly different than dealing with adults. I think of it like a kid who shows up to school hungry; I can try to educate the parents on nutrition and proper diet, or I can just give the kid something to eat. Maybe both. It’s often easier to just do the latter. If kids aren’t getting any training at home, all you can do is feed them with the truth and try and encourage the parents to get involved, which is not often successful.

When this has come up in the past, the question I would always ask the kids is, “When you are standing in front of Jesus and have to give an account of how you lived your life, raise your hand if you think “my parents didn’t enforce what I learned in CCD” is going to get you some kind of pass?” Never had a single hand go up, which tells me they know their religious training is a solitary deal.

 

[Ockham]

Well, it could be that the children aren’t being taught this at home because it is not true.

Confession once a year is for those who are conscious of mortal sin. It is not a blanket requirement for everyone.

How many of us can go a year without committing a mortal sin? Even the pope has a confessor.

 

[Cat]

The same situation exists in Protestant churches.

I was an evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of my life. I attended some of the top evangelical churches in the U.S. and sat under internationally-known pastors and teachers.

We used to bemoan the fact that so many Christians were not well-educated about their faith, ignorant of the Bible, and not serious about their relationship with Jesus Christ.

Recalitrant, immature Christians are called “carnal” in the Bible. St. Paul describes them in I Corinthians 3. (In some Bibles, a different word is used other than “carnal.” E.g., in NASB and NAB the word used is “fleshly.” In Revised, it’s “of the flesh.” "Carnal is used in Douay Rheims and KJV.)

This chapter and the next two chapters in I Corinthians are worth studying to learn more about “carnal” Christians. It’s interesting that St. Paul talks about feeding these people “milk” instead of “meat” because they are not able to receive meat.

I think this is where some Catholics (and Protestants) get it wrong. I’ve heard the following statements over and over on CAF:

“We need to stop condescending to uneducated Catholics and give them the heavy stuff! That will get them back into the Church.”

“They don’t need to hear light and fluffy contemporary music, they need to hear the old hymns in the high language of Shakespeare and the Gregorian chants. That will attract them back to the Church…”

“They need a good stiff Bible study with a tough teacher. That’s what’s needed to get Christians back to God–less fluff and more stuff!”

Yes, it sounds good. But it’s NOT what St. Paul says!

He says that we need to start where these Christian “babies” are right now. We need to feed them MILK, not meat. Eventually they’ll be ready for meat, but if we try feeding it to them now, they’ll barf it up.

That’s not “modern” Catholicism wuvvy-duvvy philosophies, that’s St. Paul! So if you want to criticize this approach, take it to St. Paul, please, and don’t accuse me of being “modern” or “Protestant.”

To me, “milk” means the following: vernacular, songs in modern language with modern melodies, basic Bible studies requiring no advance study or preparation, simple homilies in plain language, simple prayers in plain language (like the Rosary, or like many of the prayers of the saints), and an emphasis on simple goodness like almsgiving, prayer, and fasting.

To me, “meat” means the following: non-vernacular (Greek, Latin, and Hebrew), ancient hymns in Latin and in “high” vernacular (King James’ language with the thees and thous), deep Bible studies that require several hours a week of study and preparation, complex homilies that require note-taking and outside study, contemplative prayers and deep prayers of suffering saints who wrote deeply spiritual diaries and journals, and a pursuit of absolute perfection and total reliance on the Lord Jesus Christ.

It seems to me that instead of looking at “carnal Christians” or “fleshly Christians” with scorn or wishing that they would just “get out of the Church and let the rest of us who are spiritual worship in peace,” I think that we should see them as St. Paul sees them–babies.

Not too many of us would wish that real babies would be taken out of Mass. In fact, I’ve seen many people on CAF angrily remonstrate against those who even dare to suggest that a mother take a screaming child out of the Mass.

Well, Christian babies cry and say things that aren’t true about the Lord Jesus and His Church, and they act silly and disrespectful, and they don’t understand the “rules” and they don’t always obey them–all because they’re babies, and that’s what babies do.

Now I can hear many of you railing and saying, “They’re not babies, they’re grown-up Catholics and if they’re not grown up, they should just grow up like I did. They need to drop this milk thing and eat meat.”

Again, that’s not what St. Paul says. He says we have to feed them milk.

So…what does that mean? IMO, it means that things like Lifeteen are a good idea, because they are “milk” for those who are still immature, fleshly, carnal baby Christians. Using a more traditional Catechism class approach with teenagers would not work, because they need to eat milk until they are ready for meat.

And it means continuing to use simple, contemporary-sounding hymns in simple English, with simple melodies. Latin chants and hymns in flowery King James language are too “meaty” for baby Christians.

In other words, we need to recognize that our Church in the U.S. is full of “babies,” not just those under 5 years of age, but 15-year-old babies and thirty-something babies and even sixty-something babies! And because of this, we need to offer plenty of “milk.”

It’s important that the “milk” is “good.” I’m not suggesting that we start “rock Masses” or add “dancing and partying” to the Mass to amuse the babies. Not at all. The milk should be good, pure, wholesome milk–everything in keeping with the teachings of the Church.

Now here’s the problem–many of us are way past the milk stage, and we want meat. So the parish also has to offer meat to those who are spiritually mature.

That’s where things like the TLM, the “traditional Mass” (Gregorian chant, hymns, antiphons, etc) come in, along with year-long Bible studies requiring several hours a week of reading and study, prayer vigils, and other spiritual activities for those who would like more to feed on than just “milk.”

BUT…it is very important for those who are “mature” to NOT criticize and look down upon the “babies” who still want milk! They’ll get there, but NOT by eating the same meat that we are eating. You wouldn’t offer a steak to a baby, would you? Let them drink their milk, and eventually, they’ll grow to maturity.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[Melchior_1]

How many of us can go a year without committing a mortal sin? Even the pope has a confessor.

This is an excellent question, followed by a very very valid point. There’s so many reasons to go to Confession, not the least of which is to return us to the same state of Grace we were in when we were first Baptized. Why people wouldn’t want to go even if they AREN’T in state of mortal sin is beyond me. The little stuff can add up, after all.

And choy, I agree. Which is why we’re starting to take the fight to the schools. Going in there and doing presentations, answering questions. We’re likely going to start doing retreats. Some of the kids have started their own high school program within the school to minister to their peers (peer-to-peer discipleship - a powerful powerful thing).

 

[Ockham]

Why people wouldn’t want to go even if they AREN’T in state of mortal sin is beyond me. The little stuff can add up, after all.

Being in a state of grace is also a requirement for receiving Holy Communion. Based on the statistics a lot of people are getting into the line unworthily. If more priests talked about this requirement and sin in general I’m sure there would be a line at Confession too.

 

[Melchior_1]

Being in a state of grace is also a requirement for receiving Holy Communion. Based on the statistics a lot of people are getting into the line unworthily. If more priests talked about this requirement and sin in general I’m sure there would be a line at Confession too.

I suppose one of the issues is that some might simply think they aren’t in a state of mortal sin, thus they think they don’t have to go. Venial sins are covered through going to Mass after all, so maybe they think they’re “safe”. I usually er on the side of caution myself.

Speaking of priests informing, we have a priest who comes to our parish once a month and celebrates Mass. What amazes me is that every time he comes he says at the end of Mass “I’ll be hearing Confession” and he explains the benefits of the Sacrament for a couple of minutes. After Mass I went to go and I’m not lying; there was a line up of twelve people under the age of 18 in that line-up, two minutes after Mass. And more joined later. Two minutes! Incredible. And they know this priest won’t hold back, some of the penances he gives out are a “little bit” more than “say a Hail Mary and call it a day”.

This happens every time he shows up. Makes me proud of the kids that they know the score.

EDIT: I totally just noticed you’re from the Tri-Cities!

 

[ProVobis]

Confession once a year is for those who are conscious of mortal sin. It is not a blanket requirement for everyone.

Confession is for anyone who has committed mortal sin. Or even a serious venial sin he wants to get off his chest or talk to someone about.

 

[ProVobis]

To me, “milk” means the following: vernacular …

To me, “meat” means the following: non-vernacular (Greek, Latin, and Hebrew)…

My mother had me learning Latin before I learned English. True story.

Must have been that “milk” Latin, though.

 

[corsair]

Regarding the once a year confession; I can’t make it from week to week many times. If I go beyond 5 weeks I’m walking on “thin ice”. Actually if I lived closer to town I would like to go weekly.

 

[Anthony_Joseph]

Well, it could be that the children aren’t being taught this at home because it is not true.

Confession once a year is for those who are conscious of mortal sin. It is not a blanket requirement for everyone.

According to new advent it is a precept (aka commandment of the Church) to go to receive the sacrament of Penance at least once a year. There is no caveat about it being mortal sin. Furthermore, if you can find a person who will say they have not committed a sin or (not even a mortal sin) in the last year, then they are living in sin, specifically the sin of pride. Its a fact of our shared humanity that we are all sinners. There is only one person who is completely sinless, and she gave birth to the God-Man. The one who is wholly God and wholly man. Anyway, I digress. It is a requirement to be in good standing with the Catholic Church that all Catholics go and make a good confession once a year.

 

[Anthony_Joseph]

also here is my source with the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur.

newadvent.org/cathen/04154a.htm

 

[paperwight]

Oddly enough, this has recently been covered in the Catholic Answers Quick Questions newsletter. (i.e. one of the newsletters one can sign up to run by this website).

The specific question was 'Do Catholics have to go to confession every year even if they are not conscious of morlal sin ’ and the answer was no, not according to Canon Law (see CIC 989, IIRC). However, confession of venial sins was encouraged.

New Advent is fine as far as it goes, but the better source is Canon Law, as New Advent seems to simplify too much, even to the point of being misleading, as this example shows.