Problems understanding God - why? (Edited Title)

[fhansen]

Then how is it just to hold us responsible (temporally, not spiritually) for Adam and Eve’s sin?

Because we’re all one in Adam-still sinning ourselves, carrying on the family tradition. Rom 5:12. Adam* is* us.

 

[fhansen]

Then how is it just to hold us responsible (temporally, not spiritually) for Adam and Eve’s sin?

Because we’re all one in Adam, sinning ourselves, carrying on the family tradition-Rom 5:12. Adam is us-we are Adam, with the same preference for ourselves over God-until we come to our senses, that is.

So there is no reason to replay the drama of the first sin in each of us-humankind sinned in Adam-and our newspapers as well as our own relationships with each other eloquently attest to this, IMO. And as we fell collectively and influence each other negatively collectively, God provides a way of saving us collectively and having us influence each other positively towards that end collectively, communally.

 

[BobCatholic]

Because we’re all one in Adam, sinning ourselves, carrying on the family tradition-Rom 5:12. Adam is us-we are Adam, with the same preference for ourselves over God-until we come to our senses, that is.

If God put me in the Garden of Eden with one commandment, not only would I NOT touch that tree, I’d also beat the snake into the ground if he tries to approach me to turn away from God.

It is not just to hold us responsible for Adam’s sin. I did not chose him as a boss, and I’m supposed to be in Christ, which means this issue should have been resolved. However, only the spiritual part was resolved, the temporal punishment still remains (Romans 8:23)

So an unjust punishment still continues.

Because we’re all one in Adam, sinning ourselves, carrying on the family tradition-Rom 5:12. Adam is us-we are Adam, with the same preference for ourselves over God-until we come to our senses, that is.

I’m not in the Garden of Eden with only one commandment.

I’m not in paradise with zero suffering.

So no, I’m not in the same situation as Adam.

If God put me in paradise with one commandment, not only would I not touch that tree, I would also beat the snake into the ground with a stick if he approached me trying to turn me away from God.

But I was NEVER given that choice. So much for free will. I’m held responsible for my ancestor’s sin which violates Deuteronomy 24:16.

So I’m in Christ which means the spiritual punishment is gone but the temporal punishment remains. How is this just?

 

[yellow8yellowM]

If God put me in the Garden of Eden with one commandment, not only would I NOT touch that tree, I’d also beat the snake into the ground if he tries to approach me to turn away from God.

Are saying that you have never sinned, or that you have only sinned because of Adam’s fault and through God’s injustice?

It is not just to hold us responsible for Adam’s sin. I did not chose him as a boss…

Please answer this question: What if God bypassed Adam and made us, as we are, with original sin, but created and given to us directly from God? Would you still feel the same way?

 

[fhansen]

If God put me in the Garden of Eden with one commandment, not only would I NOT touch that tree, I’d also beat the snake into the ground if he tries to approach me to turn away from God.

It is not just to hold us responsible for Adam’s sin. I did not chose him as a boss, and I’m supposed to be in Christ, which means this issue should have been resolved. However, only the spiritual part was resolved, the temporal punishment still remains (Romans 8:23)

So an unjust punishment still continues.

I’m not in the Garden of Eden with only one commandment.

I’m not in paradise with zero suffering.

So no, I’m not in the same situation as Adam.

If God put me in paradise with one commandment, not only would I not touch that tree, I would also beat the snake into the ground with a stick if he approached me trying to turn me away from God.

But I was NEVER given that choice. So much for free will. I’m held responsible for my ancestor’s sin which violates Deuteronomy 24:16.

So I’m in Christ which means the spiritual punishment is gone but the temporal punishment remains. How is this just?

Presumably what God wants us to learn is gained only with the experience-with the knowledge- of good and evil. Maybe the truth is that none of us would’ve chosen rightly-humankind needed to leave Eden in order to find its value.

 

[BobCatholic]

Are saying that you have never sinned, or that you have only sinned because of Adam’s fault and through God’s injustice?

I never said I never sinned.

I asked the important question: Why are we held temporally responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin since we are not in the Garden of Eden?

It is FAR easier NOT TO SIN to have one commandment in the Garden of Eden than hundreds outside.

If I were in the Garden of Eden under the same circumstances, I’d stay far away from the tree AND beat the snake into the ground with a stick if he tried to talk me into going against that commandment.

Please answer this question: What if God bypassed Adam and made us, as we are, with original sin, but created and given to us directly from God? Would you still feel the same way?

That’s not what happened, so I’m sticking to reality.

 

[BobCatholic]

Presumably what God wants us to learn is gained only with the experience-with the knowledge- of good and evil. Maybe the truth is that none of us would’ve chosen rightly-humankind needed to leave Eden in order to find its value.

There is no value in living outside of the Garden of Eden. Life is too long and full of suffering. If it were up to me I’d want to die so I can be with the Lord. But it is not up to me. Somehow I have to survive until I die, so I don’t want a long life. I want it short and sweet.

 

[fhansen]

There is no value in living outside of the Garden of Eden. Life is too long and full of suffering. If it were up to me I’d want to die so I can be with the Lord. But it is not up to me. Somehow I have to survive until I die, so I don’t want a long life. I want it short and sweet.

Maybe the value of living outside of Eden is simply the knowledge that there’s no value living outside of Eden. Maybe this is all about our wills-helping us to see our need for God, to develop the hunger and thirst for Him you seem to have that might be missing otherwise. I realize that might not be a satisfactory answer to anyone who’s suffered greatly-but personally I believe there’s much testing and educating going on here-and it will all be worth it in the end.

 

[BobCatholic]

Maybe the value of living outside of Eden is simply the knowledge that there’s no value living outside of Eden. Maybe this is all about our wills-helping us to see our need for God, to develop the hunger and thirst for Him you seem to have that might be missing otherwise. I realize that might not be a satisfactory answer to anyone who’s suffered greatly-but personally I believe there’s much testing and educating going on here-and it will all be worth it in the end.

I think this is a good point. Reminds me of the demotivator about the purpose of mistakes.

despair.com/mis24x30prin.html

One meaning of suffering and life is that life without God is without value.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Bob,

I feel that there is nothing we can say to persuade you to change your mind on this, but I will try one more time. I will use an analogy to try to describe the problem.

Let’s say that Adam and Eve sinned, and for their punishment God said that they and all of their descendants would be blind. It sounds like you are upset that you are blind, not because of the blindness itself, but because it was Adam’s sin that made you blind.

To me, there is no difference. God could have made us all blind from the beginning if we wanted to. The fact that we are blind is because God allows us to be blind. God, by definition, is good and just. Therefore, there must be a reason He made us this way. Whether He made us this way directly or indirectly through Adam is insignificant.

 

[BobCatholic]

Bob,

I feel that there is nothing we can say to persuade you to change your mind on this, but I will try one more time. I will use an analogy to try to describe the problem.

Let’s say that Adam and Eve sinned, and for their punishment God said that they and all of their descendants would be blind. It sounds like you are upset that you are blind, not because of the blindness itself, but because it was Adam’s sin that made you blind.

To me, there is no difference. God could have made us all blind from the beginning if we wanted to. The fact that we are blind is because God allows us to be blind. God, by definition, is good and just. Therefore, there must be a reason He made us this way. Whether He made us this way directly or indirectly through Adam is insignificant.

No, I am upset because I’m being punished (not allowed in the Garden of Eden) because of my ancestors’ sin (Adam and Eve)
If God had not had them in the Garden of Eden in the first place, how would I or anyone else know that we had a privation? We wouldn’t unless God said so.

So using \your example, the scriptures (in your example) would say that God did not give anyone any sight. Unless God told us what it meant, we would reason that here is something mysterious in the scripture and would not understand the concept of “sight”

God is good and just. Yet he punishes (temporally) people for the sins of Adam and Eve. I’m struggling to understand how that is just.

If I were in the Garden of Eden, I would stay far away from that forbidden Tree. And if that stupid snake were to start talking to me trying to go against God, I’d pound him into the ground with a stick from another tree. But I never had that choice.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

So using \your example, the scriptures (in your example) would say that God did not give anyone any sight. Unless God told us what it meant, we would reason that here is something mysterious in the scripture and would not understand the concept of “sight.”

So are you saying that you would prefer to be blissfully ignorant of why we have original sin? If the Bible started at Genesis 3:15 would that seem more just?

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

God is good and just. Yet he punishes (temporally) people for the sins of Adam and Eve. I’m struggling to understand how that is just…

Until this point, I have being trying to make the point that it does not matter how we obtained original sin or whether or not there ever was a Garden of Eden. I believe that the important point is that God created a world in which suffering exists.

Bob, do you believe that an all powerful and all benevolent God could have created a world in which there is suffering?

 

[BobCatholic]

So are you saying that you would prefer to be blissfully ignorant of why we have original sin? If the Bible started at Genesis 3:15 would that seem more just?

No.

I want to know why we are being punished temporally for Adam and Eve’s sin. They made the sin, we pay the price.

Understand that I’m trying to figure out how to survive life without a job until I die a natural death since I’m not allowed to commit suicide.

 

[BobCatholic]

Until this point, I have being trying to make the point that it does not matter how we obtained original sin or whether or not there ever was a Garden of Eden. I believe that the important point is that God created a world in which suffering exists.

It matters a lot. Holding a son responsible for the sins of the father is forbidden (Deuteronomy 24) and I wonder why we are held responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve (in a temporal way only)

Bob, do you believe that an all powerful and all benevolent God could have created a world in which there is suffering?

I believe an all good and all benevolent God would talk to me and help me understand. But He gives me the silent treatment because He has rejected me and does not love me temporally. He loves my soul infinitely, but does not love my body.

I’m trying to figure out how to survive life without a job until I die a natural death since I’m not allowed to commit suicide.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

I hope this helps.

CCC 404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”.293 By this “unity of the human race” all men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as all are implicated in Christ’s justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state.294 It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called “sin” only in an analogical sense: it is a sin “contracted” and not “committed” - a state and not an act.

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, "Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away."307 And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’"308

 

[carn]

Then how is it just to hold us responsible (temporally, not spiritually) for Adam and Eve’s sin?

If i get mowed down by a car today, it is (at least as far as i can tell) not just.

If the driver did this, because he wanted to punish me for something i did not do, it would be an injust punishment.

If the driver did it, because the only way to avoid mowing down a group of children he could not react to sooner although he drove with all necessary care was by making a sharp turn and unfortunately it lead where i stand, it is still not just. And yet it is in no way a punishment for me. And even with that fate, i would consider that such a driver did not make a wrong choice, he would have made the right choice given the circumstances. He would not have acted in any way sinful or wrong or contrary to justice.

So things can be not just without being a punishment.

 

[tonydavies]

Holding a son responsible for the sins of the father is forbidden (Deuteronomy 24) and I wonder why we are held responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve (in a temporal way only)

Adam and Eve lost the farm (an analogy), that’s why it hasn’t been handed on down to us. If our parents lost our inheritance the farm due to poor decisions, being swindled, whatever, would you blame God who gave them the farm, or would you blame our parents?

God didn’t lose the farm, our parents lost the farm for failing to follow a rule, and the rule wasn’t that complicated to understand or follow.

Rather than blame God, blame our first parents for not being able to follow one simple rule, and paradise was theirs (and ours) for eternity.

However God hasn’t stopped trying to help us. He gave us a new Adam and Eve, Jesus and Mary, and our inheritance will be even greater than the garden of Eden.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Please answer this question:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=677822
Thanks