I’m not talking about purgatory.So you are only concerned that the punishment in purgatory is unfair? Please explain how this is different.
In what way are we held responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve?And my objection is why we are held responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve by God. You will notice we are not in the Garden of Eden. I do not believe it is just to hold a descendant (ANY descendant) responsible for the sins of the ancestor.
Evidence#1, first and foremost: We are not living in the Garden of Eden.In what way are we held responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve?
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/405.htm
“Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.”
We have to deal with the consequences and that is not nice. And to some extent they are unavoidable for salvation, if God snipped his fingers and made this world nice, some would be lost.
If God wanted to, He could have created Adam and Eve in their fallen state. What is the difference? As it stands, it seems unjust to punish us for the sins of our ancestors. If it were the latter, then it would seem unjust of God to have created imperfect people.Evidence#1, first and foremost: We are not living in the Garden of Eden.
We are punished for Adam’s and Eve’s sins.
It is not just to punish the descendant for the sin of the ancestor.
He created them as imperfect, so it is the same effect.If God wanted to, He could have created Adam and Eve in their fallen state. What is the difference?
I agree.If it were the latter, then it would seem unjust of God to have created imperfect people.
Free will is reduced or eliminated depending on the imperfection of the person who was created.In my opinion, God created a world where we could have free will.
Where Justice = 0 thanks to us being held responsible for Adam and Eve’s sin in a temporal way. Not spiritually, Jesus Christ took care of that.If life is a physics equation, suffering is the heat lost through friction.
I think the problem comes from people thinking suffering is intrinsically evil. I personally do not think of suffering as either being good or evil, but rather being something which is either wasted or utilized. Some say suffering is evil by giving examples of horrible things like rape, and even though I believe the rape itself is evil; I don’t believe the suffering -which is the byproduct of the rape- is evil. I don’t believe this because the suffering if utilized correclty can help the victim overcome their traumatic experience and heal themselves. I personally have heard multiple people say the suffering caused by their traumatic experience gave them the opportunity to grow in ways they never thought possible. I think the healing affect suffering gives us from things like working out, doing the right thing, etc. is the same type of healing that can occur even in the midst of more traumatic circumstances like a rape, murder, and etc.The problem for many is the degree of suffering that relatively innocent people often must endure-and the fact that God has the power to stop it. Also, the concept of hell, eternal torment, for not choosing correctly can appear unjust.
St Augustine himself was stymied by the “mystery of evil”-and could resolve the question only by understanding it in the light of the gospel and Gods’ revealed love as contrasted to sin.
IMO, there’s simply much we don’t know now and all earthly suffering will be compensated for immeasurably in the next life-and all will be completely satisfied that justice is done perfectly as regards anyone’s final destination.
If you call it punishment that we are not in the Garden, you assume that there is beside the punishment no reason why we are not in the garden. What do you think what happen if all as we are are moved to the garden right now?Evidence#1, first and foremost: We are not living in the Garden of Eden.
We are punished for Adam’s and Eve’s sins.
It is not just to punish the descendant for the sin of the ancestor.
If Jesus Christ paid the price, he has redeemed us and cleansed us. US. The WHOLE us. Body + soul.If you call it punishment that we are not in the Garden, you assume that there is beside the punishment no reason why we are not in the garden. What do you think what happen if all as we are are moved to the garden right now?
You assume everything woul be fine?
If the reason is unknown, how can you decide that its due to being held responsible for sin of Adam and Eve?We’re not redeemed yet. He took care of the spiritual part, no doubt there. But he held back the temporal part for some reason. For some reason we are held responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve were punished by being thrown out AND KEPT OUT from the Garden of Eden.If the reason is unknown, how can you decide that its due to being held responsible for sin of Adam and Eve?
But we are not supposed to be in the world. We should have been in the Garden of Eden.Maybe the temporal part is necessary for some to be truly saved. Then its not punishment, but simply an act of tough love to leave us in this world.
But we are in, are supposed to be in, the world. Eden was part of the world. So it does not follow that we have the same penalty.Adam and Eve were punished by being thrown out AND KEPT OUT from the Garden of Eden.
We have the same penalty.
But we are not supposed to be in the world. We should have been in the Garden of Eden.
We are supposed to be in the world - IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN.But we are in, are supposed to be in, the world. Eden was part of the world. So it does not follow that we have the same penalty.
You are comparing apples and roast beef.It appears that we are not using the same definition of penalty. If a father commits a serious crime, gets caught, and convicted, his penalty is his prison sentence. Now because he is in prison, the family income dries up and they lose their home. Is losing their home a penalty for the father’s 'crime? Or, is it simply the natural consequence of an immoral choice of the father?
Having the same penalty is not the same as being punished in the same way and for the same reason.Adam and Eve were punished by being thrown out AND KEPT OUT from the Garden of Eden.
We have the same penalty.
But we are not supposed to be in the world. We should have been in the Garden of Eden.
No it isn’t. It is worse since the ones who did not commit the sin get the same punishment as those who do. This is not just.Having the same penalty is not the same as being punished in the same way and for the same reason.
What is stopping God from allowing us back into the Garden of Eden? Nothing. Thus, this is 100% God’s choice. He could said to Adam’s Children “Come back home” anytime.If our fate is a consequence, one cannot derail God for being unfair, because there might have been little choice.
We are all welcome back in something greater than Eden after we die.What is stopping God from allowing us back into the Garden of Eden? Nothing. Thus, this is 100% God’s choice.
But we were meant to be in the Garden of Eden UNTIL we die.We are all welcome back in something greater than Eden after we die.
Nope. I’m not asking that.Secondly, you seem to be asking a form of the question: “Why did God create the world as it is?”
Boring is 100 million times than watching someone you love die a long painful death of cancer. Or unemployment. Or starvation. Or the Holocaust. Or disease.How boring of a world it would be if we were all perfect, and if every 100 yard dash in the Olympics ended in a tie!
Ok, it might not be. But temporary injustice is not avoidable due to original sin.No it isn’t. It is worse since the ones who did not commit the sin get the same punishment as those who do. This is not just.
We would blow it again. Therefore He cannot just let us back. He must guide us back. And that includes some temporary injustices.What is stopping God from allowing us back into the Garden of Eden? Nothing. Thus, this is 100% God’s choice. He could said to Adam’s Children “Come back home” anytime.
If God is perfectly just, how is this “temporary injustice” possible?Ok, it might not be. But temporary injustice is not avoidable due to original sin.
We would blow it again because we are created imperfect. God creates people imperfect only to watch them fall. Why didn’t he create us perfect in the first place?We would blow it again. Therefore He cannot just let us back. He must guide us back. And that includes some temporary injustices.
I think i said it last page somewhere - and you claimed its not about creation - why creation and the choices in creation are “right”, “wrong”, “just”, “injust”, “moral” or “amoral”, we cannot determine.We would blow it again because we are created imperfect. God creates people imperfect only to watch them fall. Why didn’t he create us perfect in the first place?
Then how is it just to hold us responsible (temporally, not spiritually) for Adam and Eve’s sin?Given the choice, suffering is unavoidable and therefore only wrong and injust insofar as unavoidable suffering is injust.