Problems w/ Atheism

[josie_L]

most theologians (at least western Christian theologians) say god is omniscient (in the sense that he has prescience, or can see the future and has exhaustive knowledge).

If you think about it just the degree of knowledge required for an intelligent designer to create the universe and the mechanism for our evolution, would easily be enough intelligence to predict the likelihood of flaws like Hitler or Stalin (in fact it would really have to be such an immense amount of intelligence, it would have to be exhaustive or virtually exhaustive). In other words if a conscience being analogous to a god exists, who created us knowing what would turn out, he (or it) would logically have to be omniscient. Therefore it’s reasonable to assume this god did knowingly create a world where Hitler would kill 6 million Jews using mechanisms like gas chambers.

So it’s not a question of Hitlers free will, it’s a question of the six million Jews who were slaughtered.

He’s omniscient but He can’t control us.

 

[yankee_doodle]

hahaha! So you actually like those non-atheist countries after all! Good choice! By the way, don’t be so sure those personalities are really atheists either. Unless you know what their inner-most thoughts are. Some of the wives might not agree with you about your presumption on their husbands’ beliefs. Be careful.

Hey I guess deluding yourself into thinking everyone you like in history was a Christian is one way to go?

Religion = Santa Claus for grown ups :dancing:

OK, kidding aside, I’ve seen it all on these boards. Bad logic, bad physics, complete ignorance of topics like evolution and biology in generaly, and a level of biase that can only come from indoctrination. I understand some people will remain attracted to religion. But in many (maybe even most) cases it seems to blind people so much they become completely intolerant and so narrow minded they simply lose sight of real facts.

 

[yankee_doodle]

He’s omniscient but He can’t control us.

That one went right over your head?

 

[srferdave]

No. I did not say evil because I do not subscribe to notions of morality. What I said, more or less, was that the god depicted in the Bible is a reprehensible, unjust monster.

I’m honestly baffled by this comment. I have been talking almost exclusively about the god character being unjust for having, as part of his values of “justice” the notion of punishing people – eternally, I might add – for thought crimes…i.e. for denying his existence.

I have mentioned Hitler only to point out that such a god character is impossibly more reprehensible than him: Hitler was a mass murderer, but he never tortured his victims for all eternity for thought crimes.

We could bring up other unpleasant characteristics of this god character – his enjoyment of blood sacrifice, his unjust idea of punishing the son for the crimes of the father (i.e. “original sin”), or the unjust idea of vicarious atonement (punishing a person to make up for someone else’s crimes) – but my point is clear: this being’s idea of “justice” is warped and twisted.

Again, not evil – just reprehensible, unjust, and something that I wouldn’t want a part in even if it were real.

Hell is not a punishment issued by God. Hell is a place freely chosen by someone. It is for people that choose to reject God. Jesus tells us in my occasions how dreadful a place this is. But he never tells us he is going to punish us with it. He tells us that it is our choice. From your last statement, it sounds that this is the place you have freely chosen.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Hell is not a punishment issued by God. Hell is a place freely chosen by someone.

Yes, you get to freely choose whether or not to believe in this silly nonsense

It is for people that choose to reject God.

oh no … not another my way or eternal damnation religion

Freely choose me, or I’ll burn you in an eternal hell (hmmm, nahh no cohersion there). How you guys fall for this stuff never ceases to amaze me

Jesus tells us in my occasions how dreadful a place this is. But he never tells us he is going to punish us with it. He tells us that it is our choice. From your last statement, it sounds that this is the place you have freely chosen.

 

[srferdave]

Yes, you get to freely choose whether or not to believe in this silly nonsense

oh no … not another my way or eternal damnation religion

Freely choose me, or I’ll burn you in an eternal hell (hmmm, nahh no cohersion there). How you guys fall for this stuff never ceases to amaze me

You’re looking at it totally wrong. Think about it like a parent saying to their child, follow our rules or move out of the house. The parent is looking out for the best interest of the child. It’s not a power trip. The parents want give the child the best life possible, but he/she still has to follow the rules. If the child chooses not to then they are kicked out of the house where the child will most likely struggle immensely. You are thinking of it like God is on a power trip. That is not what it is like. God created this world for us to enjoy. But in order to enjoy it to its full potential we should follow the instructions that the creator of the world laid out for us. If we don’t want to follow those instructions we don’t have to. But he is telling us if we don’t we will suffer for it. Just like a child will suffer for choosing not to follow the rules laid out for him/her to stay in the parents house.

 

[josie_L]

That one went right over your head?

No it didn’t, Yankee as I’m well aware of what you’re trying to say but I don’t agree with your premise, you think God should have, being omniscient, found a way to avoid events like WWII by doing away with Hitler and others like him to prevent the suffering they would inflict, but what makes you think He didn’t prevent something even greater than WWII from happening (recall that at Fatima, the message given by our lady was one of warning in that there would be something even more catastrophic than the Great War if people did not turn to God in prayer and fasting, did we listen, are we heeding the signs God sends us)? You don’t have the full picture Yankee, and it’s wrong of you to stand in judgment of God when your perspective is limited, furthermore, God can’t just manipulate people and/or situations, so even if he foresaw that Hitler would one day rise to such evil, He could not just wipe him off the map (or uncreate him), moreover, if God were to continually save us from ourselves how could we ever know when we erred, i.e., what lessons would we learn if God were to do away with the suffering and evils of this world? The travesty of the WWII/Holocaust was not that God ignored our plight but rather that we had abandoned Him.

 

[gearhead]

You’re looking at it totally wrong. Think about it like a parent saying to their child, follow our rules or move out of the house. The parent is looking out for the best interest of the child. It’s not a power trip.

Depends. In many cases, it is.

The parents want give the child the best life possible, but he/she still has to follow the rules. If the child chooses not to then they are kicked out of the house where the child will most likely struggle immensely.

And if the child decides that it’s in his best interests to follow the rules and the parents feel that the child is sincere, they’ll let him back in.

I don’t think it’s so much “follow the rules or you’ll be kicked out”, it’s “follow the rules or you’ll be locked in the basement and we won’t let you out”.

But he is telling us if we don’t we will suffer for it. Just like a child will suffer for choosing not to follow the rules laid out for him/her to stay in the parents house.

No he’s not. Going with the family analogy, in the Catholic Church’s version, for most of the rules, if you don’t follow them but you’re really sorry, your older brother will suffer for it and you’ll get off scot-free.

 

[josie_L]

Yes, you get to freely choose whether or not to believe in this silly nonsense

oh no … not another my way or eternal damnation religion

Freely choose me, or I’ll burn you in an eternal hell (hmmm, nahh no cohersion there). How you guys fall for this stuff never ceases to amaze me

Because God is Good those who reject Good ipso facto reject God, and those who reject God/Good end up in Hell.

 

[srferdave]

And if the child decides that it’s in his best interests to follow the rules and the parents feel that the child is sincere, they’ll let him back in.

I don’t think it’s so much “follow the rules or you’ll be kicked out”, it’s “follow the rules or you’ll be locked in the basement and we won’t let you out”.

Absolutely incorrect. God will forgive us as many times as we need. Which is probably more than most parents will do for their children. You think it will be super easy to allow a child back in to your home if they screwed up a thousand times. I don’t think it would be easy for me.

No he’s not. Going with the family analogy, in the Catholic Church’s version, for most of the rules, if you don’t follow them but you’re really sorry, your older brother will suffer for it and you’ll get off scot-free.

How does your older brother suffer?

 

[gearhead]

Absolutely incorrect. God will forgive us as many times as we need.

Ah… so he’ll give you lots and lots of chances before he locks you in the basement and doesn’t let you out. Still doesn’t sound like the epitome of good parenting to me.

How does your older brother suffer?

Didn’t Jesus “pay the debt of sin” for humanity?

 

[srferdave]

Didn’t Jesus “pay the debt of sin” for humanity?

Jesus died for our sins to open the gates of heaven. But he also showed us how to love. And we did not get off scotfree. If that were true, we wouldn’t have to do anything.

 

[AntiTheist]

Hell is not a punishment issued by God. Hell is a place freely chosen by someone.

You can play with semantics all you want, but you’re missing the point: this god character, according to the story, deliberately set things up so that the result of not believing in him or not loving him is eternal torture. He could have set things up any way he wanted, and his values led him to create a system in which a thought crime results in eternal torture.

Those values are monstrous on a cosmic scale.

You want to use the example of a parent making rules for children? How many human parents have values that include torturing their children if those children do something wrong? It’s almost unthinkable.

As I’ve said, this god character has a perverted idea of justice. He thinks it’s “just” to punish people for the crimes of their ancestors (“original sin”); he thinks it’s “just” to punish people for thought crimes (i.e. he considers it a punishable offense not to have a belief in him); he thinks it’s “just” for blood sacrifice and vicarious atonement to remove guilt (i.e. being supposedly all powerful, he could have chosen any means of atonement he wanted [including just forgiving everybody] – apparently, he values heaping the blame on an individual who must be tortured, suffer, and die for everyone else).

I mean, I’m personally thrilled that there’s no evidence that such a horrific monster actually exists: life would be pretty bleak if such an eternal dictator – with such hideous and disgusting values – actually existed and was going to judge people.

Now perhaps you think it’s perfectly just to punish people for the crimes of their ancestors or to punish people for thoughts. If you do, that tells me all I need to know about your values…

 

[srferdave]

He could have set things up any way he wanted, and his values led him to create a system in which a thought crime results in eternal torture.

False. A thought crime does not result in eternal torture.

You want to use the example of a parent making rules for children? How many human parents have values that include torturing their children if those children do something wrong? It’s almost unthinkable.

God DOES NOT torture us. It is incredible that you see it this way. To continue using the analogy of a child leaving his home… The child chose this. The child said I don’t want to follow your rules so I will leave. Whatever lays ahead of the child after he leaves the home is HIS fault, not the parents fault. If you decide to not follow God it is your choice not Gods. God is not the one doing any torturing.

As I’ve said, this god character has a perverted idea of justice. He thinks it’s “just” to punish people for the crimes of their ancestors (“original sin”); he thinks it’s “just” to punish people for thought crimes (i.e. he considers it a punishable offense not to have a belief in him); he thinks it’s “just” for blood sacrifice and vicarious atonement to remove guilt (i.e. being supposedly all powerful, he could have chosen any means of atonement he wanted [including just forgiving everybody] – apparently, he values heaping the blame on an individual who must be tortured, suffer, and die for everyone else).

You just don’t get it. It was not just any individual. It was God himself. Once you get past the idea of God punishing us you might start to understand.

I mean, I’m personally thrilled that there’s no evidence that such a horrific monster actually exists: life would be pretty bleak if such an eternal dictator – with such hideous and disgusting values – actually existed and was going to judge people.

Now perhaps you think it’s perfectly just to punish people for the crimes of their ancestors or to punish people for thoughts. If you do, that tells me all I need to know about your values…

Again… you just don’t get it.

 

[AntiTheist]

So you are a nihilist?

I’m a moral nihilist, yes. I don’t think “morality” exists, as in an objective set of “shoulds” for all people and all times. There are only values – our values lead us to act and evaluate the actions of others.

It seems you view God in this negative light yet you have very little understanding of Him.

My understanding is that this god character thinks it is just to punish people for not holding a belief in him. (Or, if you want to play the semantics game, he thinks it’s just for him to have established a system in which choosing not to believe in him results in one’s self-chosen eternal torture)

If that’s not true, please correct me.

If you don’t believe in an afterlife than what Hitler did is worse because he took away the only lives his victims’ had.

Well, obviously. I’m speaking hypothetically. If there is a god who has these kinds of values that include valuing eternal torture as a punishment for thoughts, then (and only then) would this being be worse than Hitler.

I suppose that violating a woman is just reprehensible to you or a mass murderer who likes to torture his young victims and then dispose of them is just and act of injustice to you.

Yes, I do find those things unjust and reprehensible. If I were to invent a world of “rules” that all people had to follow, it wouldn’t make them any less or more reprehensible and unjust.

 

[AntiTheist]

False. A thought crime does not result in eternal torture.

I was under the impression that people who do not believe in this god character go to hell. Am I mistaken?

I mean, that’s how it works in some other Christian denominations, but it might very well be different in Catholicism.

 

[srferdave]

I was under the impression that people who do not believe in this god character go to hell. Am I mistaken?

I mean, that’s how it works in some other Christian denominations, but it might very well be different in Catholicism.

Not necessarily. It is up to God to judge. We don’t know what the fate of ones soul is. We believe that God is just. God is the only one that knows whats in our hearts.

Remember, Catholics believe in purgatory.

We have a pretty good understanding of what God desires from us and how he might judge us, but ultimately we don’t know how he will judge us until it happens.

 

[gearhead]

God DOES NOT torture us. It is incredible that you see it this way. To continue using the analogy of a child leaving his home… The child chose this. The child said I don’t want to follow your rules so I will leave. Whatever lays ahead of the child after he leaves the home is HIS fault, not the parents fault. If you decide to not follow God it is your choice not Gods. God is not the one doing any torturing.

“I told him not to go into the backyard! It’s not my fault that he fell into the pit back there that I dug, filled with gasoline, set on fire and hired people to tend, even though I knew full well he and plenty of other people would end up in it.”

Not necessarily. It is up to God to judge. We don’t know what the fate of ones soul is. We believe that God is just. God is the only one that knows whats in our hearts.

Remember, Catholics believe in purgatory.

… for venial sins. Atheism isn’t a mortal sin? Denial of the Trinity isn’t a mortal sin?

 

[srferdave]

"I told him not to go into the backyard! It’s not my fault that he fell into the pit back there that I dug, filled with gasoline, set on fire and hired people to tend, even though I knew full well he and plenty of other people would end up in it."

… for venial sins. Atheism isn’t a mortal sin? Denial of the Trinity isn’t a mortal sin?

It would be if you have full knowledge and full consent.

 

[srferdave]

"I told him not to go into the backyard! It’s not my fault that he fell into the pit back there that I dug, filled with gasoline, set on fire and hired people to tend, even though I knew full well he and plenty of other people would end up in it."

… for venial sins. Atheism isn’t a mortal sin? Denial of the Trinity isn’t a mortal sin?

God did not create hell.