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srferdave
Guest
HAHAHA. Are you serious right now. Do you really want to start arguing about a cartoon???
I have a feeling you like to argue just to argue…
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I have a feeling you like to argue just to argue…
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gearhead
Guest
Likewise.HAHAHA. Are you serious right now. Do you really want to start arguing about a cartoon???
I have a feeling you like to argue just to argue…
Maybe we should just drop it. It’s a poor analogy anyhow.
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josie_L
Guest
So he can steal their faith in Christmas.
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josie_L
Guest
Actually Doctor Seuss had something going with “The Grinch who stole Christmas”.HAHAHA. Are you serious right now. Do you really want to start arguing about a cartoon???
I have a feeling you like to argue just to argue…
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srferdave
Guest
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gearhead
Guest
What you wrote doesn’t seem to follow from what I wrote.
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srferdave
Guest
Hopefully the “story” of our current society (trying to steal christmas) ends the same way the movie ends.
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gearhead
Guest
You mean with everyone celebrating the innate goodness of people and nobody mentioning Jesus at all?
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srferdave
Guest
You are missing the analogy we are using. We are saying that the Grinch is to the gifts as an Atheist is to our faith.You mean with everyone celebrating the innate goodness of people and nobody mentioning Jesus at all?
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josie_L
Guest
He’s pretending to be Santa (just like the Atheist pretends to be god) so he can steal their faith in CHRISTmas (but he misunderstood the meaning of CHRISTmas as it wasn’t about boxes and bags and gifts galore it was about something more). You see the Grinch lost faith because of his misconceptions but he wouldn’t realize this until he tried to take CHRISTmas away. It was only through the witness of others that he saw the true spirit of CHRISTmas come alive again. Because of their faith the Grinch believed again (and his heart swelled in his chest from the knowledge). I love that book.
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AntiTheist
Guest
It is the Law that demands the Blood.Right. And who created this law to begin with? I mean, sheesh, this god sacrifices himself to himself to fulfill a law that he himself created. He could have just forgiven everyone and been done with it; or he could have chosen a means of atonement that doesn’t involve blood, torture, crucifixion, and demanding that people believe in things for which there is no evidence.
Look at the things that this being values. I don’t value blood sacrifice, atonement by pain and torture, and credulity.
That’s irrelevant. The point is that he designed a system where it’s possible for a thought to result in this fate. He could have made it so that belief has nothing to do with your afterlife fate.
A better analogy would be if I started a war and then said that you could come into my bomb shelter only if you love me (and then, of course, I use my mind reading machine to tell if you really, really mean it). And, of course, I started the war knowing perfectly well in advance that there would be people who wouldn’t love me. Now, I don’t want to leave anyone outside the bomb shelter…but my not wanting to is irrelevant – look at the unjust system I’ve created.
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humble_maid
Guest
Speaking for myself, any claim I made about the Church or its teaching that ended up being wrong, I heard from a Catholic.
However, I don’t believe that my main objections to Christian theology in general or Catholic theology in particular are based on false claims. We just have different takes on the same thing: the atonement, for example. I see it as inherently unjust; apparently, the Church does not.
Humble Maid
Read my answer to AntiTheist in Post# 415. Your thought is the same as Anti. Maybe you should reevaluate too? Your claims are based on false info. Get the real facts; I basically put the info in a nutshell. If you have questions or remarks we can discuss this.
He didn’t ask how; he asked who. Who instituted the Law?
humble maid post #415
As I mentioned above that Jesus can be the only one to loose the seal because it is God who established the law and only God can fulfill it. He took it upon Himself to go to His people on Earth and bring them back home to Him from the principality of this world (Hell) who is ruled by Satan. Satan was not going to give up his station that easily. Remeber that he was thrown out of Heaven and hurled onto the earth where he plots the ruin of men. Why is he allowed to do this? Free will. Satan decided against worshipping God. He knew that if he could mislead humans he could make them fall under his authority and that the only way God could get them back was to execute the Law which demanded a life for a life; Jesus for Adam and his descendents. This life to be exchanged for the ransom had to be done out of pure love hence the blood of the lamb(pure and untarnished). As for the bizarre rituals, pain, torture etc… this was inflicted because of the hatred in some men; instigated by satan not endorsed by God.
Read carefully the first line which I emphasized in bold characters. I answered his question.
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gearhead
Guest
Atheists don’t pretent to be god.
A person who considers themself god is an autotheist, and they’re few and far between - I’ve only ever met one, myself.
I think you may be operating under the mistaken assumption that atheists have a “god-shaped” hole that they fill with something else. That’s not the case.
Right - and in the story, it was about celebration of humanity (or “Who-ity”, I suppose), not about commemoration of God or Jesus.
You realize that there’s no Christ in The Grinch Who Stole Christmas, right? The message of the story isn’t about faith in God, it’s about faith in people.
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srferdave
Guest
She wasn’t trying to explain what the authors intent was of the story (which very well could have been an analogy for Christianity, I don’t know). She was trying to portray the similarity between real life and a story (doesn’t mean every little detail of the story is going to be equivalent to reality). Hence, the analogy.
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humble_maid
Guest
Right. And who created this law to begin with? I mean, sheesh, this god sacrifices himself to himself to fulfill a law that he himself created. He could have just forgiven everyone and been done with it; or he could have chosen a means of atonement that doesn’t involve blood, torture, crucifixion, and demanding that people believe in things for which there is no evidence.
Humble maid
God created the law. I told you that Satan caused a rebellion and made man fall into sin. The only way to buy back man’s freedom was to basically fight evil with the ultimate good(self-sacrifice) a price was demanded. Jesus did not want all men to perish at the hands of sin caused by Satan so He made a committment to offer His life for all the souls of humanity. Why? I did mention that God makes laws which even He has to adhere to. Can’t you understand this? If He made a law stating that a perfect life has to be exchanged for a lost one that was perfect, what don’t you understand?
Look at the things that this being values. I don’t value blood sacrifice, atonement by pain and torture, and credulity.
Did you even read my post at all? Free will. Free will. Keep repeating it and maybe you will understand. We do not as christians value blood sacrifice, pain, torture and I specifically said so that God does not endorse it; it is a result of man’s nature incited by Satan himself. God is the remedy not the disease.
That’s irrelevant. The point is that he designed a system where it’s possible for a thought to result in this fate. He could have made it so that belief has nothing to do with your afterlife fate.
Again refer to my post. God created the heavens and the earth. When Satan rebelled he had to go somewhere because Heaven didn’t want him. Where did you want God to put him? As a matter of fact God didn’t even place him in the fiery abyss yet but hurled him onto the earth. Hell is here my friend and the grave(death). The fire burning hell is reserved for those who hate God. Not for those who merely have illicit or impure thoughts(then everyone would go to damnation) but it is to those whose hearts only desire these things and hate God. I also did mention that He made us eternal and so what He makes eternal stays that way even after death.
A better analogy would be if I started a war and then said that you could come into my bomb shelter only if you love me (and then, of course, I use my mind reading machine to tell if you really, really mean it). And, of course, I started the war knowing perfectly well in advance that there would be people who wouldn’t love me. Now, I don’t want to leave anyone outside the bomb shelter…but my not wanting to is irrelevant – look at the unjust system I’ve created.
How many times must I repeat the same thing. God did not start the war. Satan rebelled and God defended His territory. Now Satan is after the human race to make them prisoners of his hell. God wanted not to be a dictator and using His powers to kill and destroy, He made the option of allowing man to freely choose His side or that of Satan. This is the gift of FREE WILL. It’s like Black and White. If you choose God you follow Him if you refuse his offer as I stated in the analogies I gave you, then you forfeit His loving protection which will leave you at the mercy of satan. It is satan who tortures not God. Got it.
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josie_L
Guest
Maybe they don’t realize that they are indeed (indirectly) playing god when deny the existence of the one true God.
I’m following the storyline of the book which portrays the Grinch has having his heart swell in size (have you read the book or seen the cartoon) upon seeing the true spirit of Christmas exemplified by the Whos.
It’s centered on the celebration and true meaning of Christmas (something the Whos believed in).
It’s about faith in something far greater than themselves.
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gearhead
Guest
Not really. I can’t speak for other atheists, but I reject that mindset altogether. I don’t hold myself up as God; I simply don’t believe in any gods.
i.e. on seeing the Whos exhibit kindness and joy in one another.
The story’s about kindness and compassion, not about faith or worship.
If you’re going to make inferences about the beliefs of the Whos that aren’t actually in the story, you should probably be aware that Dr. Seuss was a Lutheran.
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josie_L
Guest
It has nothing to do with how the Whos exhibited kindness and joy towards one another as that was not the central theme.
Hmmmm, let’s see, the Grinch stopped believing in Christmas, decided to steal Christmas, realized he was wrong about Christmas, restored Christmas, and believed once again in (the true spirit of) Christmas, but the story’s about kindness and compassion?
So what if Dr. Seuss was a Lutheran (last time I checked they were Christians who celebrated Christmas)?If you’re going to make inferences about the beliefs of the Whos that aren’t actually in the story, you should probably be aware that Dr. Seuss was a Lutheran.
p.s. I’d like to know what’s your take on a Christmas Carol (which by the way is coming out in animated format with Jim Carey as Ebenezer Scrooge)?
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yankee_doodle
Guest
I had to go back & confirm it … but I was responding to someone else.
I wouldn’t call it a “theory” of indoctrination, more like a hypothesis (the only evidence I have is anecdotal, which probably isn’t enough to support a “theory”).
But I also believe having been an evolutionist doesn’t matter. I went from a near atheist in college, through a fairly deep religious phase, to where I am now (unadulterated atheism). I do believe I was indoctrinated during my religious phase. Something less than brainwashed, but much more than mere belief in a series of facts. It closed my mind to serious consideration of contrary facts. In fact rather than consider contrary facts, I would play the apologist (so I’ve been right where you are now … but on the protestant side).
On a side note … I assume by saying you “used to be” an evolutionist you’re not anymore (I thought most Christians dropped a literal reading of Genesis a long time ago?). I have to admit – I think arguing against evolution is a pretty absurd position (do you think all the evolutionary scientists in the world are colluding in an anti-god conspiracy).
if you want to we can have a “who knows more stuff” competition (but yeah, my grammar does suck, but this is a chat board so I usually type really fast & most of the time I don’t proof read my posts – oh well
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humble_maid
Guest
Yankee what was it that made you convinced that religion was futile. How do you go from believing deeply to denying it completely? And why, if you were protestant, make it a point to visit a catholic site?
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