Problems w/ Atheism

[gearhead]

That would be a another conversation in itself. And I don’t think its necessary to determine that because i think both of us can agree that voluntary communism is very very very unlikely. and is not worth a discussion in this thread.

It’s not something I would want, certainly, but it does happen - case in point the various religious communities who have instituted voluntary communism, which we already touched on.

 

[josie_L]

Tell that to Ananais and Sapphira.

Anyhow, are you saying that voluntary communism isn’t communism? Why would that be?

Isn’t it anachronistic to be calling it communism?

 

[josie_L]

When I say “communist groups”, I mean communism, pure and simple: an egalitarian system where property is owned communally instead of individually and the workers control the means of production.

Marxism is a subset of communism. However, I’d say that the brand of communism that was practiced under dictators like Stalin wasn’t Marxism either.

In other words it wasn’t a politcal/social ideology as expressed by Karl Marx and dictators like Stalin.

 

[gearhead]

In other words it wasn’t a politcal/social ideology as expressed by Karl Marx and dictators like Stalin.

Which would be what? The political/social ideology expressed by Karl Marx certainly wasn’t what existed in the USSR under Stalin. Stalin went against the core principles of Marxist philosophy.

Edit: BTW, weren’t you the one who complained about mud-slinging and name-calling earlier in the thread? Why exactly did you start this whole Stalin/atheism thing?

 

[KyivAndrew]

I disagree with that. Many long-standing communist groups are religiously based… for example, the Hutterites. Just because the large examples were “atheist” (though definitely not big on freethought or rejection of dogma) doesn’t mean that communism is inherently atheistic.

I disagree. The Hutterites would sooner be called religious communalists. By calling them, or other religious groups Communists, one muddies the water to a certain extent between Communism as it has been understood in the Western World with Religious Communalism. I believe even the Kibbutzniks today would sooner accept the label of “collectivism”.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Which would be what? The political/social ideology expressed by Karl Marx certainly wasn’t what existed in the USSR under Stalin. Stalin went against the core principles of Marxist philosophy.

That’s old hat really and was typically used by disenchanted Trotskyists to claim Stalin somehow betrayed the “Revolution”, when, in fact, Trotsky would have accelerated Industrialization, World Revolution, and forced Collectivization over and above Stalin, and Lenin would have approved.

I am not sure if you are familiar with that line of reasoning but most scholars who got the Soviet Union and World Communism right (the late Martin Malia, Richard Pipes) always laughed at the weak attempt of many ultra-leftists to defend Marxist, Communist, Bolshevik, etc. ideas by forever proclaiming every Communist dictator went against “the core principles of Marxist philosophy” as you aver. At this point in our understanding of history, this is humorous.

We know that every attempt to implement Marxism, whether in Eastern Europe, Russia, China, Africa has resulted in the exact same movements for the most part. Destruction of any resistance, collectivization (which in Ethiopia helped produced famine in the 80s, in Ukraine in the 30s, in China in the 50s and 60s) resulting in the deaths of millions. Surely putting the Hutterites in the same ideological structure as the aforementioned is wrong.

There is a phrase for those who claim some innocence for Marxism from how it turned out in practice. Scholars of Communism like Conquest and Malia point out such people always avoid dealing with “Real-Existing Communism”, that is how it turns out in reality.

I believe Stalinism entered the equation because the thread started dealing with ethics in an atheist world and I asked you Gearhead on what grounds could you call Stalinism “horrible” as an agnostic or atheist. Where does your sense of morality come from gearhead? Or is there no such thing as morality as AntiTheist has argued on this Forum?

If you read Marx’s poetry you understand that throughout his life he was fighting God. All the big names in modern Marxism - Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev, Mao, Pol Pot - believed fundamentally that religion was a force for evil. Heck, they had museums in Moscow illustrating the “evils” of Christianity and would throw parades where the Komsomol would kick priests and rabbis along Anti-Religious Festivals. Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens would have been perfectly at home in such a museum. The only thing to Marx and all Marxists as we commonly understand them to be considered moral was what advanced the Proletarian Revolution and Classless Society. There was no room for religious morality as Marxists understood religion to be merely a bourgeois superstructure.

Marxists believe in Economic Determinism and Materialism, fundamentally. Hence their vicious destruction and liquidation of Religious Institutions. The fact that one can point to religious communalists does not militate against the central fact that Atheism was central to the core of all major Communist regimes in the Modern Era. It wasn’t some harmless by-product but was central to the Marxist goal of creating Heaven on Earth in the form of a classless society, and any dreams of religious immortality were considered dangerous to just about all Marxist Rulers. Atheism was Central to the Communist Project.

Why do you think the Downfall of Communism started in Poland for which the whole world should be thankful? It was because of all the Eastern European countries the Communists found it most difficult to liquidate the Catholic Church there. Without Walensa, the Catholic Church, and the Moral Rejection of Atheist Communism in Poland, it is quite arguable that the Soviet Empire would still be with us to a certain degree (Gorbachev admitted as much). It was the Church that finally lit the fire that brought that atheist Monstrosity called the Soviet Empire down.

 

[KyivAndrew]

Oh and while we are at “Freethinkers” and Communism, we should recall there were many Marxists at the beginning of the Russian Revolution who practiced “freethinking” and ridiculed such archaic ideas as marriage, the family, and so forth. Heck, even an Atheist Icon like Christopher Hitchens, free thinker par excellence, was a Trotskyist in the 80s. Trotskyism, Atheism, same idea on God.

 

[gearhead]

I disagree. The Hutterites would sooner be called religious communalists. By calling them, or other religious groups Communists, one muddies the water to a certain extent between Communism as it has been understood in the Western World with Religious Communalism. I believe even the Kibbutzniks today would sooner accept the label of “collectivism”.

And do you think what they’d like to be called necessarily defines what they are?

That’s old hat really and was typically used by disenchanted Trotskyists to claim Stalin somehow betrayed the “Revolution”, when, in fact, Trotsky would have accelerated Industrialization, World Revolution, and forced Collectivization over and above Stalin, and Lenin would have approved.

It doesn’t take a whole lot of insight to realize that Marxism and communism under Stalin are two different things. Marx advocated the idea that power should be held collectively by the people. Stalin advocated that power should be held by, well, him.

 

[gearhead]

Oh and while we are at “Freethinkers” and Communism, we should recall there were many Marxists at the beginning of the Russian Revolution who practiced “freethinking” and ridiculed such archaic ideas as marriage, the family, and so forth. Heck, even an Atheist Icon like Christopher Hitchens, free thinker par excellence, was a Trotskyist in the 80s. Trotskyism, Atheism, same idea on God.

Do you think that communism as it ended up being implemented in the Soviet Union is compatible with the precept that people should be free from doctrine, and should use reason and logic as the basis of their beliefs?

 

[yankee_doodle]

Oh and while we are at “Freethinkers” and Communism, we should recall there were many Marxists at the beginning of the Russian Revolution who practiced “freethinking” and ridiculed such archaic ideas as marriage, the family, and so forth. Heck, even an Atheist Icon like Christopher Hitchens, free thinker par excellence, was a Trotskyist in the 80s. Trotskyism, Atheism, same idea on God.

So what about Winston Churchill, Voltaire, Ernest Hemingway, Robert Frost, Thomas Edison, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, John Stuart Mill, Sigmund Freud, Stephen Jay Gould, John Maynard Smith, Richard Branson, George Soros, Adam Smith, David Hume, Isaac Asimov, and the many other great people who self-identified as either atheist or agnostic.

Additionally, deists and famous people who were probably agnostic include Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Albert Einstein, John Adams, Abraham Lincoln, James Madison, Spinoza, Hobbes, Rousseau, Immanuel Kant, Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen, and I could probably go on all night long.

 

[yankee_doodle]

In other words it wasn’t a politcal/social ideology as expressed by Karl Marx and dictators like Stalin.

I think he was saying Stalin didn’t represent Marx’s ideals very well.

 

[KyivAndrew]

It doesn’t take a whole lot of insight to realize that Marxism and communism under Stalin are two different things. Marx advocated the idea that power should be held collectively by the people. Stalin advocated that power should be held by, well, him.

No. Marx advocated the Dictatorship of the Proletariat before the State withers away. Marxism could advocate People Owning Everything in some Harmonious Utopia but the fact that NO major society on Earth could get to this stage tells me something about Marxism - it’s an ideology with no basis in reality. Do you believe Universal Utopia is possible on Earth as Marx advocated gearhead? Do you believe Class Struggle to be the Fundamental Dialectic of all societies as Marx advocated? Do you believe in the Fundamental Precept of Marx - Class Warfare?

 

[KyivAndrew]

I think he was saying Stalin didn’t represent Marx’s ideals very well.

Yankee name me one major country on Earth that represented Marx’s ideas well? The theory has been around almost 200 years. Surely some country should have proven Marxism true by now!

 

[yankee_doodle]

Statistically speaking, the thing that most criminals have in common is poverty, i.e., they were raised in low income families (many in single parent households).

excuses, excuses … does Stalin get the benefit of the poor abused child mantra?

p.s. The thing about communism (and those who choose to implement it) is that it is an atheistic philosophy (I am not saying atheism leads to communism however).

So what are you saying. Because one guy (Karl Marx) wrote a book, expressing a belief that the rich and powerful use religion to manipulate the working class, atheism is less valid? Red herring.

 

[yankee_doodle]

Yankee name me one major country on Earth that represented Marx’s ideas well? The theory has been around almost 200 years. Surely some country should have proven Marxism true by now!

I’m a libertarian who agrees with the father of modern market capitalism – fellow atheist – Adam Smith

I do see one pattern though. Whether good or bad atheists and agnostics are represented among the movers and the shakers of western history in grossly disproportionate numbers. You should also remember Marx wrote his manifesto in the construct of feudalism, and the beginnings of the industrial revolution (a period where working conditions would be considered horrific by today’s standards). I’m certainly not acting as an apologist for Marx, but in fairness he never advocated anything like the brutal regime of Stalin.

History has proven him wrong

BTW you do realize the entire premise of your argument is a false cause fallacy? You have no proof atheism informed the evil of Stalin, and given the immense role Christianity played in his life, it’s just as likely Christianity influenced his psychology as opposed to reading a single book :tiphat:

 

[KyivAndrew]

So what about Winston Churchill, Voltaire, Ernest Hemingway, Robert Frost, Thomas Edison, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, John Stuart Mill, Sigmund Freud, Stephen Jay Gould, John Maynard Smith, Richard Branson, George Soros, Adam Smith, David Hume, Isaac Asimov, and the many other great people who self-identified as either atheist or agnostic.

Additionally, deists and famous people who were probably agnostic include Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Albert Einstein, John Adams, Abraham Lincoln, James Madison, Spinoza, Hobbes, Rousseau, Immanuel Kant, Alexander Hamilton, Ethan Allen, and I could probably go on all night long.

Well for starters there is a difference between people animated by hatred of all religion (perhaps Paine, Voltaire) and people who do not fight God but are quite open to His Existence and Providence (Abraham Lincoln, Churchill) and who sometimes saw His Providence at work as Abraham Lincoln did. It is one thing to hate God/Religion and another to be animated by the possibility of His real existence and Action in life. I recall Churchill singing “Onward Christian Soldiers” with some emotion with Roosevelt on a Navy Ship docked in the Atlantic at a Christian Service before both leaders went off to deal with Hitler.

 

[gearhead]

No. Marx advocated the Dictatorship of the Proletariat before the State withers away. Marxism could advocate People Owning Everything in some Harmonious Utopia but the fact that NO major society on Earth could get to this stage tells me something about Marxism - it’s an ideology with no basis in reality. Do you believe Universal Utopia is possible on Earth as Marx advocated gearhead?

Probably not. Though if, as you argue, Marxism is actually impossible to put into practice, then this just reinforces the fact that Stalin’s rule wasn’t Marxist.

If a class of thing (e.g. Marxist government) is physically impossible, then it’s a no-brainer that any particular thing that actually existed (e.g. Stalin’s government) isn’t in that class of thing.

Do you believe Class Struggle to be the Fundamental Dialectic of all societies as Marx advocated? Do you believe in the Fundamental Precept of Marx - Class Warfare?

No, I don’t. But I don’t see how that’s relevant. You don’t have to be a Marxist to recognize non-Marxist philosophies and say “that’s not Marxist”.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I’m a libertarian who agrees with the father of modern market capitalism – fellow atheist – Adam Smith

Hmm I thought we both discussed this once before and we agreed Smith, genuinely interested in Moral Principles, could better be described agnostic.

I take it you’re a freemarketer. Are you familiar with the atheist objectivist Ayn Rand and her acute individualism?

 

[gearhead]

I recall Churchill singing “Onward Christian Soldiers” with some emotion with Roosevelt on a Navy Ship docked in the Atlantic at a Christian Service before both leaders went off to deal with Hitler.

And you have some concrete reason to assume that his emotion came from the “Christian” part and not the “Onward Soldiers” part, I take it.

 

[KyivAndrew]

And you have some concrete reason to assume that his emotion came from the “Christian” part and not the “Onward Soldiers” part, I take it.

Churchill was the one who specifically requested that Hymn for the Service. Take it as you like it.