Problems w/ Atheism

[cantheist]

False. The Church looks at science, the Bible and the Church. And so far none of these have ever contradicted each other. Science has never proven any of our teachings to be false. Everything that has been found out through science is very much in line with the Church. It makes perfect sense, being that God created science.

Taxonomists – biologists who specialize in identifying and classifying life on the planet – have named approximately 1.7 million species so far. Each year, about 13,000 more species are added to the list of known organisms.

Genesis 6:15 in the Bible tells us the Ark’s dimensions were at least 135 meters long (300 cubits), 22.5 meters wide (50 cubits), and 13.5 meters high (30 cubits). That’s 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high!

ARK footprint 450 feet long, 75 feet wide = 33,050 square ft

FOOTBALL FIELD 300 feet long 150 feet wide = 45,000 square ft
Do the math how many animals can fit in a square foot.

 

[cantheist]

Problems with the bible.

Historical Facts

 58. Man was created after the other animals
      Gen 1:25,26,27
     Man was created before the other animals
      Gen 2:18,19
 59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease
      Gen 8:22
     Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years
      Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6
 60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
      Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12
     Pharaoh hardened his own heart
      Ex 8:15
 61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died
      Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9
   All the horses of Egypt did not die
      Ex 14:9
 62. Moses feared Pharaoh
      Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
     Moses did not fear Pharaoh
      Heb 11:27
 63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand
      Num 25:9
     There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand
      1 Cor 10:8
 64. John the Baptist was Elias
      Matt 11:14
     John the Baptist was not Elias
      John 1:21
 65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob
      Matt 1:16
     The father of Mary's husband was Heli
      Luke 3:23
 66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad
      Gen 11:12
     The father of Salah was Cainan
      Luke 3:35,36
 67. There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David
      Matt 1:17
     There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David
      Matt 1:2-6
 68. There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity 
     to Christ.
      Matt 1:17
     There were but thirteen generations from the Babylonian       
     captivity to Christ
      Matt 1:12-16
 69. The infant Christ was taken into Egypt
      Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23
     The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt
      Luke 2:22, 39
 70. Christ was tempted in the wilderness
      Mark 1:12,13
     Christ was not tempted in the wilderness
      John 2:1,2
 71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount
      Matt 5:1,2
     Christ preached his first sermon on the plain
      Luke 6:17,20
 72. John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
      Mark 1:14
     John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
      John 1:43/ John 3:22-24
 73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff    
     and sandals
      Mark 6:8,9
     Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither
     staffs nor sandals.
      Matt 10:9,10
 74. A woman of Canaan besought Jesus
      Matt 15:22
     It was a Greek woman who besought Him
      Mark 7:26
 75. Two blind men besought Jesus
      Matt 20:30
     Only one blind man besought Him
      Luke 18:35,38
 76. Christ was crucified at the third hour
      Mark 15:25
     Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
      John 19:14,15
 77. The two thieves reviled Christ.
      Matt 27:44/ Mark 15:32
     Only one of the thieves reviled Christ
      Luke 23:39,40
 78. Satan entered into Judas while at supper
      John 13:27
     Satan entered into him before the supper
      Luke 22:3,4,7
 79. Judas committed suicide by hanging
      Matt 27:5
     Judas did not hang himself, but died another way
      Acts 1:18

 

[cantheist]

1. The potter’s field was purchased by Judas
   Acts 1:18
   The potter’s field was purchased by the Chief Priests
   Matt 27:6,7
   81. There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre
   John 20:1
   There were two women who came to the sepulchre
   Matt 28:1
   82. There were three women who came to the sepulchre
   Mark 16:1
   There were more than three women who came to the sepulchre
   Luke 24:10
   83. It was at sunrise when they came to the sepulchre
   Mark 16:2
   It was some time before sunrise when they came.
   John 20:1
   84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and
   they were standing up.
   Luke 24:4
   There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
   Matt 28:2,5
   85. There were two angels seen within the sepulchre.
   John 20:11,12
   There was but one angel seen within the sepulchre
   Mark 16:5
   86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
   Matt 12:40
   Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
   Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9>
   87. Holy ghost bestowed at pentecost
   Acts 1:8,5
   Holy ghost bestowed before pentecost
   John 20:22
   88. The disciples were commanded immediately after the
   resurrection to go into Galilee
   Matt 28:10
   The disciples were commanded immediately after the
   resurrection to go tarry at Jerusalem
   Luke 24:49
   89. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at
   Jerusalem
   Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
   Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
   Matt 28:16,17
   90. Christ ascended from Mount Olivet
   Acts 1:9,12
   Christ ascended from Bethany
   Luke 24:50,51
   91. Paul’s attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood
   speechless
   Acts 9:7
   Paul’s attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate
   Acts 26:14
   92. Abraham departed to go into Canaan
   Gen 12:5
   Abraham went not knowing where
   Heb 11:8
   93. Abraham had two sons
   Gal 4:22
   Abraham had but one son
   Heb 11:17
   94. Keturah was Abraham’s wife
   Gen 25:1
   Keturah was Abraham’s concubine
   1 Chron 1:32
   95. Abraham begat a son when he was a hundred years old, by the
   interposition of Providence
   Gen 21:2/ Rom 4:19/ Heb 11:12
   Abraham begat six children more after he was a hundred years
   old without any interposition of providence
   Gen 25:1,2
   96. Jacob bought a sepulchre from Hamor
   Josh 24:32
   Abraham bought it of Hamor
   Acts 7:16
   97. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed
   forever
   Gen 13:14,15,17; 17:8
   Abraham and his seed never received the promised land
   Acts 7:5/ Heb 11:9,13
   98. Goliath was slain by Elhanan
   2 Sam 21:19 *note, was changed in translation to be
   correct. Original manuscript was incorrect>
   The brother of Goliath was slain by Elhanan
   1 Chron 20:5
   99. Ahaziah began to reign in the twelfth year of Joram
   2 Kings 8:25
   Ahaziah began to reign in the eleventh year of Joram
   2 Kings 9:29
   100. Michal had no child
   2 Sam 6:23
   Michal had five children
   2 Sam 21:8
   101. David was tempted by the Lord to number Israel
   2 Sam 24:1
   David was tempted by Satan to number the people
   1 Chron 21:1
   102. The number of fighting men of Israel was 800,000; and of
   Judah 500,000
   2 Sam 24:9
   The number of fighting men of Israel was 1,100,000; and of
   Judah 470,000
   1 Chron 21:5
   103. David sinned in numbering the people
   2 Sam 24:10
   David never sinned, except in the matter of Uriah
   1 Kings 15:5
   104. One of the penalties of David’s sin was seven years of
   famine.
   2 Sam 24:13
   It was not seven years, but three years of famine
   1 Chron 21:11,12
   105. David took seven hundred horsemen
   2 Sam 8:4
   David took seven thousand horsemen
   1 Chron 18:4
   106. David bought a threshing floor for fifty shekels of silver
   2 Sam 24:24
   David bought the threshing floor for six hundred shekels of
   gold
   1 Chron 21:25
   107. David’s throne was to endure forever.
   Ps 89:35-37
   David’s throne was cast down
   Ps 89:44

 

[AntiTheist]

Cantheist, a quick note – posting a list of problematic Bible verses is a pretty poor argument. Not only is it just a list (and not reasoned argument), believers can always rationalize inconsistencies in their particular faith.

The best argument is always to point out that there’s no evidence that any of it is true.

zz912:

Are you sure you understand the definition of “supernatural” and “atheist”?

Yes. An atheist is someone who does not have a belief in any gods. Such a person might or might not actively believe the claim “there are no gods,” but it is the lack of the belief in a god that makes the person atheist.

I fully admit that it may be possible that your god is real or that the Hindu gods are real or that leprechauns are real. However, based on the fact that there’s no evidence for any of those things, I conclude that the likelihood that they’re real is very small. I do not believe in any of them; hence I am an atheist.

As to your point of expanding and contracting numerous times, let’s assume that and start BEFORE that point. Explain the nothingness suddenly being filled with everything.

Well, I said that I think that it’s possible that the “stuff” that existed before the Big Bang was always there. You believe in a god that always was, so I don’t think you’d have a problem imagining “stuff” that always was. If my guess is correct, then there was no “nothing” that needs to be filled up with stuff.

Again, this is all hypothetical. I have no idea what came before the Big Bang. I hold no specific beliefs about what happened before it. The belief that gods came before the Big Bang is thus not a belief I hold. The lack of that belief makes me an atheist.

Dokimas:

A person values stealing. Why is that wrong? or is it?

There are people who value stealing. There are a lot more people who value a society where thieves are punished.

It’s not about a thief being “wrong” – that’s nonsense talk. Thieves commit acts that violate the kind of society that most people value. It doesn’t matter if they value stealing or not. If they do it, they’re going to be punished by the others. That’s all there is to it.

But why prosecute a mass murderer if he’s just evolved that way? He’s no less moral.

Because our values lead us to want a society in which mass murderers are punished.

You’re right: he’s no less “moral” because morality is a nonsense, imaginary term. What he’s done is commit an act that deeply violates the values of nearly everyone else. So everyone else is going to want to punish him.

Antitheist, does science say all the stars in our universe is moving at the speed of light away from the Big Bang?

Stars are moving every which way all the time. It’s the universe itself that’s expanding. It’s remarkable that we’ve discovered that fact.

 

[A_Dancer_Whirls]

But why prosecute a mass murderer if he’s just evolved that way? He’s no less moral.

Because he is breaking the rules deemed fit by the cooperative society.

 

[A_Dancer_Whirls]

If you believe that than you either do not understand the stories or do not understand science.

If you still think that you have a 100% accurate understanding of both, point me to your proof.

Genesis claims that god made the heavens and the earth before the sun. We know this is not correct.

Genesis claims god made women form a mans rib. We know this is not correct.

So either the bible account is incorrect, or the masses of evidence for cosmology and evolution are… or maybe i just don’t understand the evidence?

Or is it when the bible said that women was made from a mans rib that it wasn’t meant to be taken that way, maybe what it really meant was homo sapien sapien is the result of 3.5 billion years of evolution? Personally i can’t see the similarity…

The bottom line, whether the account in genesis was meant to be literal or not… it is not correct.

 

[Chancellare]

So either the bible account is incorrect, or the masses of evidence for cosmology and evolution are… or maybe i just don’t understand the evidence?

It is not necessary for me to answer the question:
Do you have evidence what electricity is made of? for me to know the existence of electricity.

There are many other things in this universe that do not need man’s understanding of its evidence for it to exist.

 

[yankee_doodle]

It is not necessary for me to answer the question:
Do you have evidence what electricity is made of? for me to know the existence of electricity.

There are many other things in this universe that do not need man’s understanding of its evidence for it to exist.

That’s absurd. We know what electricity is made of, yet we have no real evidence supporting the idea of a god (much less the claims made by your religion).

 

[A_Dancer_Whirls]

It is not necessary for me to answer the question:
Do you have evidence what electricity is made of? for me to know the existence of electricity.

There are many other things in this universe that do not need man’s understanding of its evidence for it to exist.

Am not sure i would equate electricity to claim women came for a mans rib.

 

[wcknight]

The problem is not that there is no evidence of God’s existence. There is a ton of evidence that says He does. However there is no evidence that will ever satisfy your criteria as proof, and very likely there can never be any such evidence based of the limitations and barriers that you have arbitrarily set up to discount such evidence.

My guess is that unless you see, hear, feel, and touch the proof with your own senses, you will not believe and chances are even if that happened you would be in self denial chalking it up to self delusion or some other sort of distortion.

In short unless God personally came down and knocked you over the head with a 2 by 4, you would not believe.

Eyewitness accounts, personal experiences, miraculous events, lives and experiences of saints and other holy people, these are all myths and illusions or hearsay to you. Like Thomas unless you see the wounds and put your hand into Christ side, you do not believe. Even folks who come back from the dead are not enough. Because you have zero faith, there can never be enough proof for you.

Can you ever complete this sentence, I would believe IF… (God does what ???)

There is no criteria that would ever satisfy you, so until the day you die, you will go on with your self denial.

But by then it will be too late. Too late to learn that God was there all the time, that there is something after life, that God went to great efforts to show you that He loves you, but you simply choose to ignore Him or deny Him.

No one knows whether your life will result in reward or punishment, but I like my chances a whole lot better with God than without Him.

 

[srferdave]

Taxonomists – biologists who specialize in identifying and classifying life on the planet – have named approximately 1.7 million species so far. Each year, about 13,000 more species are added to the list of known organisms.

Genesis 6:15 in the Bible tells us the Ark’s dimensions were at least 135 meters long (300 cubits), 22.5 meters wide (50 cubits), and 13.5 meters high (30 cubits). That’s 450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high!

ARK footprint 450 feet long, 75 feet wide = 33,050 square ft

FOOTBALL FIELD 300 feet long 150 feet wide = 45,000 square ft
Do the math how many animals can fit in a square foot.

There are so many things wrong here. First of all, the world, as Noah knew it, was not as large as we know it today. So when the author of the this scripture wrote this, the “world”, was probably a very small region of the world. So there were not as many animals in this region as there were in the entire world as we know it today. This makes it very possible to fit every animal in the ark. Second, you are putting restrictions on what God can do. If you believed in God you would believe in miracles, making it very possible for God to do anything. Third, Catholics do not read the Bible in a literalist interpretation. We take it literally, in the sense of what the author was trying to portray. I don’t think the authors main goal was to describe how so many animals could fit into specified dimensions.

 

[srferdave]

Genesis claims that god made the heavens and the earth before the sun. We know this is not correct.

Genesis claims god made women form a mans rib. We know this is not correct.

So either the bible account is incorrect, or the masses of evidence for cosmology and evolution are… or maybe i just don’t understand the evidence?

Or is it when the bible said that women was made from a mans rib that it wasn’t meant to be taken that way, maybe what it really meant was homo sapien sapien is the result of 3.5 billion years of evolution? Personally i can’t see the similarity…

The bottom line, whether the account in genesis was meant to be literal or not… it is not correct.

The point the author was trying to make in this Bible passage is not so much the chronological order of which things were created, it is to point out that God was the creator of everything. You can believe that God took a mans rib to create women. But it is more important to understand that God created woman from man than it is to understand how it was done.

It is possible for a Catholic to believe in evolution. I do not. But the science of evolution does not contradict any Catholic teaching.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The thread Can Atheists go to Heaven? Are they sinners? was off topic so I wanted to continue the conversation on this thread.

You claim that God does not exist. You claim one thing, I claim another.

Which leaves everyone as they were ​

One of us is right and one of us is wrong.

Or:​

• both are wrong - or
• neither is wrong
• or both are partly right & partly wrong

If, that is, “being right” is an appropriate approach; it might not be

I showed you proof. Now show me yours. In other words convince that you are right. Don’t tell me you are right because I have no evidence. I showed you evidence and you choose not to believe it.

Three points:​

• From a RC POV, “God”'s existence can be be demonstrated - but not proved.
• Which G/god are we talking about ? To speak of “God’s existence” is as uninformative as talk of cheese’s existence: there are many of both, really or conceptually. Baal is a god - so is Yahweh: are we talking of both, one, or neither ? And the God Jews believe in is not the Deity of Arians & Catholics, or the Dyophysite Christ of Catholics & Constantinopolitans; or Shiva the Great Ascetic, or the god of Stoicism, or the god of Process Theology, or a million other deities.
• And a God is who is so small as to be able to be proved to exist, is not worth bothering with anyway. People are far better off throwing it in the rubbish, where it belongs, and finding something that is worth living for, such as being honest, good, truthful, kind, wise, & so on.

Go through those sites a little more carefully. You can not but those arguments into one statement as you’ve stated above. There are many arguments.

“but” = rebut ?​

 

[Dokimas]

Antitheist: Stars are moving every which way all the time. It’s the universe itself that’s expanding. It’s remarkable that we’ve discovered that fact.

Are the stars moving at the speed of light?​

Is the universe expanding at the speed of light?​

If the universe is expanding, is it the stars that are moving that causes the expansion?

 

[srferdave]

• both are wrong - or
• neither is wrong
• or both are partly right & partly wrong

None of these scenarios are possible.

 

[Dokimas]

Because he is breaking the rules deemed fit by the cooperative society.

If materialistic evolution is true and there is no God, then there is no moral grounds for such rules unless you want to call it, ‘might makes right.’

 

[SonofMonica]

If materialistic evolution is true and there is no God, then there is no moral grounds for such rules unless you want to call it, ‘might makes right.’

Well, if I were going to play devil’s advocate with you, I would say that one way to look at it is that the existence of God and the idea that morality comes from him is the ultimate example of might makes right. Whether one person (God) decides or a group (majority) decides, the concept would be the same. One could objectively say it is possible to be subject to the tyranny of God in the same way he could be subject to the will of a majority.

Assuming that there is no God from whence morality comes and all we have is materialistic evolution, I suppose that if the “might” figures out that it is beneficial to survival to throw the minority a few bones every once in a while in order to stay mighty (in order to not be picked off by coalitions of smaller groups), then we could easily see why a moral concept like being compassionate or empathetic might develop or might be a recurring theme in social interaction. Seemingly acting “against” one’s self interest every once in a while contributes to survival of the individual and/or his group (and indirectly, the individual). We see a form of this in politics all the time, with names with “compassionate conservative” and “blue dog democrat.” Similarly, the practice of lying can lead to retribution, therefore most only lie when they feel there will be no “harm” returned to them or anyone in their group (hence, the term “white lie”).

 

[gearhead]

BTW, it doesn’t take a genious to look at the amazing earth and the awsome thing called life (in all its forms) and conclude that it is too amazing to start with the premise that God doesn’t exist. I dare say to start with ‘there is no god’ is to deny reason and logic looking at the complexity all around. Maam or sir, I’d spend my whole life looking for God if I were you. Of course, He’s not far from you and wants to be found by you.

You realize the fallacy in your argument, right?

You point out that life is too awesome and too amazing to not have had help to become what it is, and suggest as an explanation something that’s even more awesome and amazing, but didn’t have any help to become what it is.

You point out the high degree of complexity in the universe, and invoke an infinitely complex God to explain it.

Your argument is not consistent. If the universe is too awesome, amazing or complex to have arose without help, then the same is true of God. Moreso, even.

 

[cantheist]

The problem is not that there is no evidence of God’s existence. There is a ton of evidence that says He does. However there is no evidence that will ever satisfy your criteria as proof, and very likely there can never be any such evidence based of the limitations and barriers that you have arbitrarily set up to discount such evidence.

My guess is that unless you see, hear, feel, and touch the proof with your own senses, you will not believe and chances are even if that happened you would be in self denial chalking it up to self delusion or some other sort of distortion.

In short unless God personally came down and knocked you over the head with a 2 by 4, you would not believe.

Eyewitness accounts, personal experiences, miraculous events, lives and experiences of saints and other holy people, these are all myths and illusions or hearsay to you. Like Thomas unless you see the wounds and put your hand into Christ side, you do not believe. Even folks who come back from the dead are not enough. Because you have zero faith, there can never be enough proof for you.

Can you ever complete this sentence, I would believe IF… (God does what ???)

There is no criteria that would ever satisfy you, so until the day you die, you will go on with your self denial.

But by then it will be too late. Too late to learn that God was there all the time, that there is something after life, that God went to great efforts to show you that He loves you, but you simply choose to ignore Him or deny Him.

No one knows whether your life will result in reward or punishment, but I like my chances a whole lot better with God than without Him.

You got the argument all wrong. Ask a christian this question. What amount of evidence will it take to make you lose your faith in god? The standard reply is “I will never lose my faith in god.” the christian will openly admit that he will never think logically and never have a open mind.

Ask a atheist what amount of evidence will it take to make you have faith in god? The standard reply is " what kind of proof do you have?" the atheist will look at the facts and think logically and come up with his own conclusion not his priest or parents opinion.

 

[gearhead]

If materialistic evolution is true and there is no God, then there is no moral grounds for such rules unless you want to call it, ‘might makes right.’

That or societal consensus, or our own innate moral senses, wherever they come from.

As for the rest of your point, appeal to the consequences of a belief is a fallacy. Just because an idea has ramifications that you don’t like doesn’t automatically make it false.