Problems w/ some "mortal sins"

[Catholig]

I just wanted to ask/discus the fact that I have quite a bit of trouble w/ some of the things that the Church teaches are “mortal sins” (note: I’m not trying to cause dissension or scandal and I will be obedient but it is really hard). I’m not talking about sexual ethics or that sort of thing (I agree 100%). What I mean is missing Mass on Sunday. I agree that EVERYONE should go to Mass at least once a week (on Sunday) - but it is hard to see it as being a MORTAL SIN (i.e. something warranting hell).

Another example is that priests have to say the divine office daily or they are in danger of serious sin (I just found this out today). I mean - I’m sure they should say it daily, and I feel that if it is a rule of the Church it should be obeyed - but I feel that if one doesn’t do it (e.g. skips a day) he shouldn’t be in danger of HELL.

Catholig

 

[blessedtoo]

I just wanted to ask/discus the fact that I have quite a bit of trouble w/ some of the things that the Church teaches are “mortal sins” (note: I’m not trying to cause dissension or scandal and I will be obedient but it is really hard). I’m not talking about sexual ethics or that sort of thing (I agree 100%). What I mean is missing Mass on Sunday. I agree that EVERYONE should go to Mass at least once a week (on Sunday) - but it is hard to see it as being a MORTAL SIN (i.e. something warranting hell).

Another example is that priests have to say the divine office daily or they are in danger of serious sin (I just found this out today). I mean - I’m sure they should say it daily, and I feel that if it is a rule of the Church it should be obeyed - but I feel that if one doesn’t do it (e.g. skips a day) he shouldn’t be in danger of HELL.

Catholig

For me, the sin of missing Mass is probably one of the easiest to accept and understand. It’s right up there with the other Nine, which I generally find pretty easy to accept. I figure if God went to the trouble to plainly spell out in the big Ten that we are to keep His day holy, then I can’t argue with that. So many of the other sins we fall prey to are nuanced and require reflection and contemplation. This one is pretty straight forward.

I can’t speak to the priestly obligation since I am not familiar with their prayer requirements.

 

[YinYangMom]

I think you’re misunderstanding what ‘mortal sin’ is.

Sin is sin.
Where God has spelled out what it is we are to do, we are called to obey.
He gave us the ten commandments and then simplified it in the Golden Rule.

Actions against those are sin.
Those actions/sins are either ‘venial’ or ‘mortal’ depending upon the person’s knowledge and intent.

Check out this Mortal and Venial Sin Debate thread for clarification.

The thing about missing mass being mortal depends upon whether or not you know you’re supposed to make every effort to attend, and yet you allow other matters to take precedence over that time slot so that honoring God slips down your list of priorities for the day. IF you know, and still allow God to take the back seat to your day, then your sin is mortal. It’s not that you didn’t go to mass. It’s that you didn’t go even though you knew you were supposed to go.

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

Plain and simple, when we miss Mass on purpose, we are putting the world above God. We are saying “I am not going to accept God’s invitation today because: I’m tired and sleep is more important than visiting God; I want to be first in line to that new movie and God can wait while seeing this movie cannot; I would rather stay at home and entertain myself and entertaining myself is more important than obeying God.”

Usually we don’t say it that way to ourselves, but that is exactly what we are doing: putting worldly things before God and that is clearly a VERY SERIOUS matter. There is nothing in this world, including our very being, that is even close to being as important as God. To allow the world to draw us away from God, even just once, is to repeat the act of Judas when he sold Jesus for a sack of gold. It’s quite sobbering to think about!

 

[dylanschrader]

The Catechism says:

1343 It was above all on “the first day of the week,” Sunday, the day of Jesus’ resurrection, that the Christians met “to break bread.” From that time on down to our own day the celebration of the Eucharist has been continued so that today we encounter it everywhere in the Church with the same fundamental structure. It remains the center of the Church’s life.

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor. Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

2177 The Sunday celebration of the Lord’s Day and his Eucharist is at the heart of the Church’s life. “Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church.”

"Also to be observed are the day of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension of Christ, the feast of the Body and Blood of Christi, the feast of Mary the Mother of God, her Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, the feast of Saint Joseph, the feast of the Apostles Saints Peter and Paul, and the feast of All Saints."

Missing Mass on Sunday sounds pretty serious to me.

Think about what you’re really doing when you choose not to participate at Mass on Sunday. We have a grave obligation to worship God, and God has established the Mass as the most essential way of worshiping him and given the Church authority to regulate to a certain degree how we are to participate in the Mass.

 

[Jimbo2]

I’ve edited the OP for space without changing its content:

*I feel - but I feel *

Yes, I understand. I think everyone at many points has to examine where, in their lives, their personal feelings at odds with Church teaching. I would wager that every single Catholics has been through this. However, faith, the theological virtue given to us to allow us to accept what the Church says is true, can help us to accept those things which we do not like and begin to examine them to find the principle of God love which lives inside each and every authentic teaching of the Church.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Ahh… missing Mass. Let’s use an earthly corollary, because we as images and likenesses of God imitate in small ways His own character.

The first three commandments are more serious than the last seven. Because the first three are about the Person of God. The offense is magnified because of whom you have offended. (You can see how this works in your own life. If you have kids, if they hit each other, it’s bad. If one of them hits you, it’s worse. Right?)

Well, part of the seriousness of violating the commandment to keep holy the Lord’s Day is that it offends God Himself.

Secondly, we can understand on an earthly level the importance of this. The commandments are about keeping a relationship going. The relationship between ourselves and our Creator. We all have our important days. Birthday, anniversary… we expect our spouse, family or friends to acknowlege that day.

What would you think of a spouse who let your anniversary go by and didn’t say a thing? Didn’t give you a card. No gifts. No celebratory dinner to acknowlege the relationship. We would think the relationship wasn’t important to them somehow. And it becomes worse if they know we expect a gift and a dinner out, and they wilfully ignore the day. That would severely hurt our marriage to that person. Same with our birthday. No gift, no card. No happy birthday. We would question whether that person really wanted a relationship with us if they ignored our day.

Once a week, God tells us we must acknowlege His day. If we “stiff Him” we are being like a spouse who ignores special occasions (birthdays, anniversaries, Valentine’s Day…) We wouldn’t accept that from people in our lives. So why do we think we can get away with that with God?

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

yeah but how far is too far or not far enough? I mean I am disabled. I use a wheel chair occasionally and have seizures. It is very difficult for me to get dressed and get out to go anywhere most of the time. My husband works shifts. I am uneasy going out with people who do not know what to expect IF I do need assistance. So he has to work one Sunday and he was working the Saturday before so we could not make Vigil either…do I call someone to give me a ride? Knowing I have to skip some medications on Sunday mornings until I am at home and can run to the bathroom or take a shot for nausea etc…do I take the chance of presuming upon a stranger to get me there and then have faith that nothing will happen while I am there? Not to mention the fact that I am in pain and it is difficult to even get myself dressed to start with? Even when I actually have a seizure that Sunday morning and miss Mass because of it–I feel guilty. There is always some story being told in a homily about how some poor soul with no arms or legs crawled ten miles both ways to make Mass in some third world country…
I get up extra early on Sundays to watch the Mass at Notre Dame on tv in case I can’t make it to my own Mass. There is also a Mass on tv every weekday at St. Ann’s in Scranton PA and online ( themass.com/default1024.htm ) and I think it was mentioned that there was some indulgence or something connected to it for those who are home-bound. But of course you do not get Communion unless you have it brought to you.

 

[Jimbo2]

Ravyn -

Can you imagine anyone who does not suffer from your condition, if they could somehow feel as you do for one Sunday - do you think they would try to go to Mass?

Probably not.

I’m not an expert on this topic, but I have to think that we need to apply the exception for sickness with some common sense. Some people are very sick all of the time. God knows this and so does the Church.

I think the discussion above about missing Mass presumes an able-bodied person who is not sick.

 

[Orionthehunter]

I can’t speak to the priestly obligation since I am not familiar with their prayer requirements.

Everybody is touching on the Mass attendence obligation. I’ll touch on the obligation of Priests to pray the Liturgy of the Hours daily.

For a Diocesan Priest, one of his vows is to make this prayer daily (I believe at minimum in the morning and evening but it might be just once at minimum). Just as it is grave matter to break his vow of celibacy, it is grave to break his vow of prayer.

If you want to see a Priest panic, be with him when he realizes his day is near an end and he has yet to make his daily prayer. At World Youth Day in Germany, because of the pace of the days, when we returned to our hotel at night, the train was filled with these young Priest smaking their prayer. When I asked one why he didn’t wait, he said “I’m so exhausted, I will fall asleep as soon as I get to my room. To finish, I’d have to make them standing up in my room.”

But it was quite inspirational to see these young Priests devoutly concentrating on their prayer in the midst of total youthful chaos.

On a side note, I was with a Priest friend of mine not too long ago. I told him that he has really grown into his Priesthood (been a Priest for about 8 years so relatively young). He attributed it to his prayer life. He said that when he discovered that HIS own prayers were the most important thing for being a good Priest vs. all the pastoral duties and ministries and meetings, he discovered how to be a better Priest. His day is totally scheduled around HIS prayer time and everything else is second. AFter listening to Father discuss this, I came to understand why this is part of his vow.

 

[dylanschrader]

I think you’re misunderstanding what ‘mortal sin’ is.

Sin is sin.

Some sins are more grave than others by their nature not only by the subjective factors of knowledge and intent.

Therefore, some sins even if committed with full knowledge and full consent would be merely venial sins because they are not objectively grave matter.

The Catechism:

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

Where God has spelled out what it is we are to do, we are called to obey.
He gave us the ten commandments and then simplified it in the Golden Rule.

It is true that grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments.

The Catechism says:

1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” The gravity of sins is more or less great: murder is graver than theft. One must also take into account who is wronged: violence against parents is in itself graver than violence against a stranger.

Actions against those are sin.
Those actions/sins are either ‘venial’ or ‘mortal’ depending upon the person’s knowledge and intent.

The Catechism says:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

Therefore, full knowledge and full consent are two of the criteria which must be present for a sin to be mortal; the sin must objectively be grave matter in addition to these two for the sin to be mortal.

 

[dylanschrader]

Everybody is touching on the Mass attendence obligation. I’ll touch on the obligation of Priests to pray the Liturgy of the Hours daily.

For a Diocesan Priest, one of his vows is to make this prayer daily (I believe at minimum in the morning and evening but it might be just once at minimum). Just as it is grave matter to break his vow of celibacy, it is grave to break his vow of prayer.

Priests are required to pray Office of Readings, Morning Prayer, one of the Daytime hours, Evening Prayer, and Night Prayer unless their local ordinary has commuted this in some way.

Sacrosanctum Concilium establishes:

1. Therefore, when the office is revised, these norms are to be observed:

a) By the venerable tradition of the universal Church, Lauds as morning prayer and Vespers as evening prayer are the two hinges on which the daily office turns; hence they are to be considered as the chief hours and are to be celebrated as such.

b) Compline is to be drawn up so that it will be a suitable prayer for the end of the day.

c) The hour known as Matins, although it should retain the character of nocturnal praise when celebrated in choir, shall be adapted so that it may be recited at any hour of the day; it shall be made up of fewer psalms and longer readings.

d) The hour of Prime is to be suppressed.

e) In choir the hours of Terce, Sext, and None are to be observed. But outside choir it will be lawful to select any one of these three, according to the respective time of the day.

1. Clerics not bound to office in choir, if they are in major orders, are bound to pray the entire office every day, either in common or individually, as laid down in Art. 89.

 

[blessedtoo]

yeah but how far is too far or not far enough? I mean I am disabled. I use a wheel chair occasionally and have seizures. It is very difficult for me to get dressed and get out to go anywhere most of the time. My husband works shifts. I am uneasy going out with people who do not know what to expect IF I do need assistance. So he has to work one Sunday and he was working the Saturday before so we could not make Vigil either…do I call someone to give me a ride? Knowing I have to skip some medications on Sunday mornings until I am at home and can run to the bathroom or take a shot for nausea etc…do I take the chance of presuming upon a stranger to get me there and then have faith that nothing will happen while I am there? Not to mention the fact that I am in pain and it is difficult to even get myself dressed to start with? Even when I actually have a seizure that Sunday morning and miss Mass because of it–I feel guilty. There is always some story being told in a homily about how some poor soul with no arms or legs crawled ten miles both ways to make Mass in some third world country…
I get up extra early on Sundays to watch the Mass at Notre Dame on tv in case I can’t make it to my own Mass. There is also a Mass on tv every weekday at St. Ann’s in Scranton PA and online ( themass.com/default1024.htm ) and I think it was mentioned that there was some indulgence or something connected to it for those who are home-bound. But of course you do not get Communion unless you have it brought to you.

I could have written this post! I don’t know if I’ve ever heard stories like this during the homily, but I’ve read enough about the saints to understand that many have achieved heroic virtue in overcoming their physical difficulties to attend Mass. I am not always successful. Like you, I have a physical disorder which is quite unpredictable and seems to have a mind of it’s own. Sunday morning is always a challenge, emotionally and physically. But I no longer “flagellate” myself over this. I’ve confessed enough times and been told by enough priests that missing Mass because one is ill is NOT a sin. It may be that God is calling me to heroic virtue, to have faith that He will help me in my desire and obligation to make Mass. Sometimes I can answer that call, sometimes I can’t. But not answering the call to heroic virtue is not a sin.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

There are some sins described as grave that may be difficult to see that way. I know I’ve heard the same thing in regard to past years when eating meat on a Friday was a mortal sin – “you mean to say that someone would go to hell because they ate a hamburger on Friday?”

And when you put it that way, it sounds silly. Why should God be so concerned about whether you had a hamburger and fries or fish and chips?

But there’s a larger issue involved in the sense of obedience and humility.

If you believe that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit and teaches the truth, then it makes sense to pay attention to the “rules” even if they don’t totally make sense. And that’s where the humility issue comes in. I think humility is a virtue that doesn’t come easily – at least not to me. I know what’s up and I don’t want someone telling me what to do. Why should I listen when “they” tell me to go to Mass? Why should I go along with standing when I want to sit or sitting when I want to kneel or whatever it is that the parish does – I know best! But humility teaches that it’s not all about me and my wants or my knowledge of the situation. It’s about paying attention to those in authority.

And perhaps one of the reasons that it’s a grave sin not to go to Mass on Sunday is because it’s not only an offense against God, but evidence of pride, one of the deadly sins. It’s saying that I’m the only one who matters, and that’s a problem.

 

[CuriousInIL]

The first three commandments are more serious than the last seven. Because the first three are about the Person of God. The offense is magnified because of whom you have offended. (You can see how this works in your own life. If you have kids, if they hit each other, it’s bad. If one of them hits you, it’s worse. Right?)

Any support for this as a church teaching beyond the reasoning set forth here?

 

[Catholig]

There are some sins described as grave that may be difficult to see that way. I know I’ve heard the same thing in regard to past years when eating meat on a Friday was a mortal sin – “you mean to say that someone would go to hell because they ate a hamburger on Friday?”

This is another one. Personally I try to abstain from meat every Friday and I try to attend Mass daily - but the thought that if the Church mandated either, and it became a grave matter not to do it seems sad to me. I mean - I think that it would be a great practice if everyone abstained from meat on Friday, but I don’t think I’d want those who didn’t to be in danger of hell.

I dunno

Catholig

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Any support for this as a church teaching beyond the reasoning set forth here?

Well, actually, the Church has always maintained that an offense against the sacred is worse than an offense against the non-sacred. So stealing is a sin. Stealing from the Church is a sacrilege. Premarital sex is a mortal sin. Sex with a priest is a sacrilege.

Hitting a parent is a mortal sin. Hitting a priest is a sacrilege.

Same thing with other sins.

Personally, I don’t think it’s a coincidence the order of the Ten Commandments, and the first three being about God. The other seven follow from the first three. Often those whose relationship with God is messed up have messed up relationships with their fellowmen.

 

[Daniel_Kane]

One may add that the obligation to attend Mass may be mitigated by circumstance. Of course, as an earlier poster that recalled her own experience with chronic homebound illness does not sin as she is practically impeded from attendance physically. Similarly, soldiers and sailors at remote outposts may not have access to a priest on Sunday (submarines for instance do not have chaplains and are at sea for months at a time).

So, while the attendance at Mass is generally absolute it is tempered by situations beyond the individual control of the particular person. The chronically ill and home bound, soldiers and sailors at remote outposts, travelers to lands without a priest (like researcher in the Artic Circle) have their obligation mitigated by circumstance. Canon Law also provides for pastors to make limited dispensation occasionally.

In general, the obligation to attend Mass for the other 99% of the Catholic is grave and binding. While our hardened consciences do not equate it with adultery, theft and murder, certainly the Church considers the deliberate failure to attend Mass a very grave sin indeed.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Priests are required to pray Office of Readings, Morning Prayer, one of the Daytime hours, Evening Prayer, and Night Prayer unless their local ordinary has commuted this in some way.

Sacrosanctum Concilium establishes:

Thanks dylan. I knew there was an obligation but didn’t know the details. But the point is it is part of their vows just as we have marriage vows. If we disobey our vows, it is grave matter. Same for the Priests.

I hope the combination of our posts helps the OP understand the gravity (component of their ordination vow) and rationale (needed for a Priest to be the Shepherd Christ has called him to be) of the obligation for Priests to make this prayer daily.

This is another one. Personally I try to abstain from meat every Friday and I try to attend Mass daily - but the thought that if the Church mandated either, and it became a grave matter not to do it seems sad to me. I mean - I think that it would be a great practice if everyone abstained from meat on Friday, but I don’t think I’d want those who didn’t to be in danger of hell.

I dunno

Catholig

A little known fact is that we are still required to abstain from meat on Fridays. However, we may substitute abstaining with a corporal work of mercy, charity, or prayer (I believe this is to be prayer related to for the souls of others (in purgatory or in this world).

This is a discipline of the Church designed to inspire holiness. Failure to conform is a missed opportunity to submit and obey and recieve specific graces and blessings. I don’t think it is sinful to not practice the discipline. Anybody know?

Any support for this as a church teaching beyond the reasoning set forth here?

From the Catechism:

2067 The Ten Commandments state what is required in the love of God and love of neighbor. The first three concern love of God, and the other seven love of neighbor.

1853 Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man.” But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds. (Editorial comment: A sin against the I AM is greater than a sin against one of God’s creations.)

For me this begs a question: I know a sin directly against God (blasphemy, etc) is most serious. But what about a sin against oneself vs. another. It goes to the second commandment: Love each other as you love yourself. It is a chicken and egg things I know. But are we to first get our personal love sorted out or vice versa. Is my question clear?

 

[YinYangMom]

I think that it would be a great practice if everyone abstained from meat on Friday, but I don’t think I’d want those who didn’t to be in danger of hell.

Catholig

Those who are in danger of hell are those who fully know about the Catholic teaching to abstain from meat on Friday or perform a work of mercy or prayer, understand the gravity of the rule, but deliberately refuse to honor the rule.

Those of us who don’t know that we’re supposed to be doing something ‘spiritual’ on Fridays (a lot of Catholics, unfortunately), are not in danger of hell for not doing either.

The rest of us who know about the rule, but haven’t quite succeeded in developing it into a practice, are also not in danger of hell, but we do know to confess the sin either during mass (confetior) or through the sacrament of reconciliation. It is our obligation to acknowledge our weakness and offense of our Lord before seeking to receive Him through the Eucharist.