Problems with belief

[cf1217]

Hello everyone

I spent many years away from the church and recently have made efforts to renew my faith. I did this because I felt something positive from going to church but I have trouble believing in some of the central tenets of Catholicism.

1. The Virgin Birth. As much as I would like to believe, I just cannot justify doing so. If asked why, as a Catholic, do I believe in the virgin birth I could not articulate a good reason for doing so. I do not have convincing evidence for how it could happen.
2. Original sin.

I have always had problems with this. By saying we are all born with original sin, it feels as though we are all tainted by the actions of others who came long before us and I do not see how this is just, especially in the case of children who have done absolutely nothing wrong.

I understand that I won’t agree with everything the Church says but these are core tenets that I have issues with.

Is it normal to have these thoughts, or is it possible that Catholicism just is not right for me?

I appreciate all advice, sorry if this was long.

 

[Kei]

First off: religion is about truth.
Not about if something is right for you.

That out the way, yes, it’s common to have questions or not understand.

Let’s take the virgin birth.
Why do you have issues with this? Do you not believe that God can do miracles? Or can you not believe that Jesus would have been conceived in her womb?
What is the issue?

About original sin, there is a distinction between original and actual sin. Actual sin is sin we commit.
Original sin is the sin of all humanity inherited from Adam. Think about it: they are sort of the representatives of all humanity, Adam and Eve.
It is not a sin counted against us, but a state we are born into. Hence our concupiscience. The world is fallen because of this sin. You see, this sin of Adam separated humanity, and indeed the whole world, from God in this manner. Hence it is a state of spiritual death.
It is not a sin counted against you.
Hope this helps, God bless.

 

[ErraticFaith]

Doubts are entirely normal and should be encouraged imo.

Whilst some see blind faith as admirable in the context of certain Bible passages; we aren’t afforded that luxury amongst our peers.

Which then becomes a problem when trying to justify (and thus get others involved with) the faith.

That said I never found those problems to be an issue.

To Believe in Christianity at all dictates that God is one half of Jesus’ parent pair. Without that, his lineage is little different from any other human being. Basically putting you in the camp of calling Jesus a liar.

Original sin; is completely valid as a real world concept and it frustrates me that people can’t see it clearly.

By our very nature we inherit the fortunes and circumstance of our parents. Little more than a fact of life. I find the original sin concept to completely satisfy the ‘why’ of that progression through history. I don’t know of another concept that justifies moral development in such a believable manner.

What convinces one, is rarely what convinces another however. Which makes asking these sorts of questions a shot in the dark 99% of the time.

 

[Edward_H]

Virgin Birth?

I would think given various “artificial” fertility approaches, the idea of Virginal Birth would become easier for the intellect to assent to.

If God can design a human…and the genes in a human…if I Jesus can raise the dead. etc…it’s no big deal for a woman to become pregnant.

Remember…our intellect is meant to get us closer to God…and when we want to go “even further” we use our faith!

Often our intellect can begin to “serve” our pride…“I am a scientist, I can’t believe the multiplication of loaves”, etc.

Pride is at the root of all sins. In these cases our pride (in our intellect) DISTANCES us from closer unity with God.

With respect to original sin…it’s hard to deny that we all suffer from the “effects” of original sin.

The main effects is a lack of perfect dominion over our body, our passions, our appetites.

That this lack of dominion is a problem in our society cannot be denied.

And we know interiorly that there are times when we have more dominion (our will and intellect have more dominion) over our body and its passions and appetites.

Common experience tells us that there are “effects” that disrupt our Yes to God. Most of us know that this balance can be moved around a bit, but we never seem to gain total and permanent control over our passions and appetites.

 

[Scowler]

Is it normal to have these thoughts, or is it possible that Catholicism just is not right for me?

Whether the church is right for you or not, only you can decide.

The virgin birth - parthenogenesis - is no big deal. It happens in certain animals. Not impossible in humans either. Of course the result will always be a genetic equivalent of the mother. No offspring could be male. Elementary biology - which was way beyond the understanding of those simple humans who wrote the story of the creation.

The original sin is a true stumbling block, but ONLY if you wish to think for yourself. There are many questions which you are not allowed to ask. The original sin is one of them. You are absolutely correct that it cannot be justified to place a “stigma” on someone who did nothing wrong. The usual “defense” is that the alleged “sin” of Adam separated us from God, and that separation manifests itself the “fall”. But that is nonsense. Disobedience in and of itself - is no big deal. The problem could only happen if the one who issued the command cannot “handle” the disobedience. No loving parent would disown a child, if that child would touch a forbidden object. (Of course a loving parent would not even place the dangerous object within easy reach… if you know what I mean.) If you believe the Bible, it was God, who threw a hissy fit for the “disobedience” - and cursed his whole creation. A simple act of disobedience cannot have any effect on the universe.

The whole problem would not have happened if God would not have used the “dirty trick” of issuing the command, he knew will be disobeyed. The phrase “entrapment” comes to mind when a corrupt policeman attempts to fake some evidence to get a dishonest verdict. But if you are fine with checking your intellect into the cloakroom, there will be no problem. Just learn to practice “doublethink” and you will be fine.

 

[Kei]

Without the sin of Adam we do not get the gift of Christ.
And yes, sin is a big deal. God is ultimately holy. Man was the keeper, he who was responsible over creation.
An offense is a big deal.

And the virgin birth isn’t meant to be a natural thing, but something breaking the natural order, a miracle.

 

[steve-b]

Hello everyone

I spent many years away from the church and recently have made efforts to renew my faith. I did this because I felt something positive from going to church but I have trouble believing in some of the central tenets of Catholicism.

1. The Virgin Birth. As much as I would like to believe, I just cannot justify doing so. If asked why, as a Catholic, do I believe in the virgin birth I could not articulate a good reason for doing so. I do not have convincing evidence for how it could happen.

This was not a strange belief nor a new belief. It is an old belief / teaching that hasn’t changed

What the Early Church Believed: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary | Catholic Answers Tract

cf1217:

1. Original sin.

I have always had problems with this. By saying we are all born with original sin, it feels as though we are all tainted by the actions of others who came long before us and I do not see how this is just, especially in the case of children who have done absolutely nothing wrong.

It’s important to identify what is meant by original sin and what is NOT meant by original sin
From the CCC

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle."

Think of it as, Adam & Eve couldn’t pass onto us something they lost… as in original holiness and justice. It’s not a fault of ours that we don’t inherit that. But it is a consequence none the same.

cf1217:

I understand that I won’t agree with everything the Church says but these are core tenets that I have issues with.

Is it normal to have these thoughts, or is it possible that Catholicism just is not right for me?

I appreciate all advice, sorry if this was long.

It’s not good to start out saying, I won’t agree with everything the Church teaches.

 

[Scowler]

Without the sin of Adam we do not get the gift of Christ.

Are you familiar with the concept of Pyrrhic victory? When the price you pay is too large for the prize you receive? Without sin everyone would deserve the beatific vision. God played “dirty pool” with the tree… literal or allegorical.

 

[Kei]

But it’s not though.

If you don’t know Christ then I may understand why you might feel that way.

Also there is no set opinion on whether or not Adam and Eve received the Beatific vision, the idea they did seems to be in the minority.

 

[Elf01]

The Virgin Birth. As much as I would like to believe, I just cannot justify doing so. If asked why, as a Catholic, do I believe in the virgin birth I could not articulate a good reason for doing so. I do not have convincing evidence for how it could happen.

If you can accept creation ex nihilo, the resurrection and the divinity of Christ I don’t think the virgin birth should be a problem. It points to the divinity of Christ.

Original sin.

Think of it more like the lack of an inheritance. Adam and Eve were given a gift and squandered it. If they had not their children (us) would have received it as an inheritance.

 

[fhansen]

Hello everyone

I spent many years away from the church and recently have made efforts to renew my faith. I did this because I felt something positive from going to church but I have trouble believing in some of the central tenets of Catholicism.

1. The Virgin Birth. As much as I would like to believe, I just cannot justify doing so. If asked why, as a Catholic, do I believe in the virgin birth I could not articulate a good reason for doing so. I do not have convincing evidence for how it could happen.

But why not? The Resurrection certainly isn’t explicable either, by human knowledge.

1. Original sin.

I have always had problems with this. By saying we are all born with original sin, it feels as though we are all tainted by the actions of others who came long before us and I do not see how this is just, especially in the case of children who have done absolutely nothing wrong.

The chief aspect of OS is spiritual separation from God, sometimes known as the “death of the soul”, which is why the New Covenant is all about rebirth and reconciliation with God and then communion with Him, ‘Apart from Whom we can do nothing’, John 15:5

Evidence for this state of being is all around us, in our relationships, in our newspapers, daily. Sin/evil is an anomaly, something not meant to be, and yet it thrives in our world for some reason, for the reason, simply, that man’s will reigns freely here, with God’s will held back, and man in his fallen state (apart from God, out of communion with Him), tends towards excess, tends towards selfishness and away from love. Mman was made for communion with God, and yet we lack the “knowledge of God” that Jesus came to restore. To the extent possible, and that we allow in our cooperating with God, that knowledge can be more or less perfect, more or less full, more or less direct and personal. Jesus came to reveal the Father:
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

So we need to ask ourselves, whether or not the concept of one man’s sin affecting all of his descendants seems fair or not, is it true? Do we, from birth, possess this intimate knowledge of God? Do we sin, are we prideful, carrying on the family tradition ourselves that Adam initiated? Should sin even exist, to begin with, as a part of God’s good creation? If not, why is it so prevalent in our world?

 

[Edwyn]

Without the possibility of sin NOBODY can receive the beatific vision. Only creatures who can know God by participating in His life can, and since God is love, said creatures must also be able to love, and there can be no love without free will.

Only one other kind of creature shares the beatific vision with man and God, and they are angels, and we all know about the fallen angels.