Problems With Cradle Catholics

[oldgraymare2]

Well said.

Catholic children are generally just not taught very well today; not to mention the 1950’s when nuns ruled Catholic education, reigning hellfire down on children (no love at all).

Catholic children are generally taught the rules, rubrics, traditions, virtues etc. But they, for the most part, do not receive an understanding (full knowledge) of what they are being taught. It’s very easy to walk away from rules when the rules are thought to be arbitrary. The understanding (full knowledge) usually does not come until adulthood because it can be complex sometimes.

Catholic education has a gap between childrens education and adult understanding. This gap gets exploited by our culture. Many young adults do not make it through the gap to get to understanding.

I think that you bring up some really important points in your post, too.

 

[jcrichton]

So i have noticed the same thing as the OP. Ignorant cradle Catholics actually kept me away from the Church even when i had arrived at the point of believing it contained more truth than protestantism.

My take is that protestantism is tailored perfectly towards our low attention span society in this era. The simplicity of Romans 10:9 and just saying a prayer is attractive to many people. Now unfortunately that is a truncated view of the gospel and protestants are missing out on the gem that Jesus left us in the entire deposit of the faith.

Biblically grounded Christians become Catholic and all of a sudden we start to see the pieces of the puzzle come together. Those scriptures that didnt make sense before now make perfect sense. It’s exciting and we become motivated to make up for lost time.

OTOH, cradle Catholics i think sometimes do not get the full message. They hear a lot of rules and not enough love and feel as though this is bondage. And so a well intended and compassionate protestant comes along and prays for them and it becomes extremely meaningful to them. People don’t care what you know until they know you care. So we have to do a better job of preaching the full gospel which is not only rules and warnings, but love and compassion for our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Hi!
…I thinking you’re hitting close to the target… though not so much “rules” but “responsibility;” Protestantism is freeing… a person could shop around for the “right” theology, the “right” culture, the “right” spirituality… (well, as long as nothing points to Catholicism); one Sacrament or two?, great! …wait, no Sacrament?, excellent! …“just claimed it and I’m Saved?” “Hurray, the Holy Spirit has finally freed me! No more rules; heck, we can make them up as we go!”

Catholicism rebukes and demands–it does not offer a “feel good” theology; rather, it asserts that our Fellowship with Christ must be experience in full Obedient to God’s Commandments!

Most contemporary “Believers” seek instant gratification (freedom to think and do as one pleases), a sense of security (yeah, even if false), and to be entertained (less obligations, more music, more noise, more “feel good,” more recognition, though most would object to it: acclamation).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tuscany]

Well said.

Catholic children are generally just not taught very well today; not to mention the 1950’s when nuns ruled Catholic education, reigning hellfire down on children (no love at all).

Catholic children are generally taught the rules, rubrics, traditions, virtues etc. But they, for the most part, do not receive an understanding (full knowledge) of what they are being taught. It’s very easy to walk away from rules when the rules are thought to be arbitrary. The understanding (full knowledge) usually does not come until adulthood because it can be complex sometimes.

Catholic education has a gap between childrens education and adult understanding. This gap gets exploited by our culture. Many young adults do not make it through the gap to get to understanding.

Excellent post 1Lord1Faith !

It’s not really rocket science. The OP and other converts are coming into the Catholic Church as adults. You’ve been taught in adult language what the truth and understanding of our faith is. You can read Aquinas, Augustine, The Church Doctors or the St. Popes to get understanding of the Catholic faith.

Are you going to hit a Catholic kindergartener with Aquinas or Theology of the Body ? Seriously ? It would be like an adult playing the game show Jeopardy with a second grader. We had our faith taught to us in baby steps because we were babies. We got our religious education however we could get it, not all of us went to Catholic School. But, interestingly, most of the kids that I know that had gone to Catholic Schools are no longer Catholic. Back then it was the rules that were mostly taught, not so much the faith. Huge gaps all over the place, we just didn’t know it.

We were DISCOURAGED from reading the Bible because we might interpret passages the wrong way. So, of course, when these young Catholics went out on their own, they were ignorant of their faith and of what the Bible taught… sitting ducks waiting to be plucked.

I do get tired of being blanket bashed by new Catholics coming into the faith as adults, having learned the faith as an adult vs we Cradle Catholic “hicks”. Unfortunate for us, we thought we had been taught the faith and as adults are finding out that in reality, we were taught very little. I guess nobody ever mentioned the fact to we little kids that learning the faith is a life long process.

 

[jcrichton]

Protestantism is, in a sense, simpler (how much more simple depends on the denomination). If a person isn’t well grounded in history and with good Catholic catechesis, they may find themselves unable to respond to Protestants they come in contact with and so be filled with doubts and led astray. Whatever else, I think an inability to speak to their faith when opposed can seriously undermine it. Scandal is also very hurtful. And no doubt it’s not just any one factor.

Hi!
I fully concur!

…there’s nothing like shooting fish (or is it monkeys) in a barrel. Sadly, Catholics are mostly herd animals–as long as there’s a lead they follow… too many times catechesis stops at preliminary teachings and the herd follows the water (path of least resistance); they do nothing and wait till next Sunday (or whenever).

Non-Catholics have learned what easy prey nominals are and they box them in with quick jabs and fancy footwork–knocking them out with their freeing theology (in the JWs case “science”–as in “knowledge”).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Cradle Catholic here. Learning is a never ending process. Sometimes it’s a problem too when we thought that we know everything. Not being defensive though.

In all that, in living the faith I realize that I would always fall back to this, "“Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” (Lk 11:28). It is in the hearing and the doing.

Hi, Reuben!
…couple the ignorance and presumption with laziness… and well, we got fish in a barrel!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

You have received several good answers. I hope to add a little to the conversation.

-As mentioned, Protestantism can seem easy to understand. Converts to Catholicism often indicate they realized they previously had a truncated view of bible and tradition.

-One can also align one’s personal or political beliefs with one of the thousands of denominations. If you believe in remarriage without annulment, abortion, etc., you can find a denomination that accepts your view. This attracts the increasing influence of liberal politics and secularism on society. Catholicism, in its fullness of truth, does less to attract secularism.

• Protestantism seems to focus more on bible study, which is great. Catholics need more of that. At the same time, salvation is not completely an intellectual exercise. There is not a bible exam at the gates of heaven.

-Protestantism often places a higher premium on winning converts. While the Catholic Church has highlighted the New Evangelization, we tend to focus more on spreading the good news rather than winning converts. To me, this better reflects inherent credibility.

• I was catechized during the 1980s and 1990s. I have heard others say that, at some point, catechesis was watered down. It focused more on God’s love, the basic prayers, morality, etc. and less so on doctrine, dogma, etc. This is more or less how I remember it. Some suspect this may have been a reaction to the secularization of society, particularly in the 1960s and 1970s. In other words, they tried to react to a reduction of interest. One can argue whether or not it was the right course of action.
• In a 1994 presentation aired on EWTN, Mother Angelica said that liberals had been trying to change the church. She said it had been happening for many years and that Catholics had been quiet for far too long. That was over 20 years ago. Additionally, we now know through Wiki leaks that progressives have been trying to infiltrate the Catholic Church to further their causes. I have little doubt this had some degree of impact.

To summarize, there are a variety of forces that have watered down Catholic catechesis and which ultimately lured people away from the Church. We have lost people to atheism, Protestantism, etc. However, this does not make the Catholic Church any less true. We are imperfect people making imperfect decisions, but Christ will be with our Church until the end. As you noted, there are people still converting to Catholicism and for good reason.

I hope to see a more balanced approach to catechesis for all Catholics, including RCIA, Sunday school, the media, and Sunday sermons. I hope they do not lose the message of love and morality, but increase knowledge of history and doctrine. I have read the seminaries are reverting to a more traditional approach, and I think that is a good thing.

Hi, Mat!
You’ve covered many issues which have been instrumental to the loss of Faith–cultural change did not only affect the secular world but it has eroded the Faith of too many Catholics.

Let’s pray that the Holy Spirit’s Guidance is not refuted/rejected by Catholic theologians/scholars any further… sadly, even the Bishops (those who are supposed to be the pillars of the Faith) have allowed their egos to fall (sometimes head-over-heels) for secular values…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[JimG]

You have received several good answers. I hope to add a little to the conversation.

-As mentioned, Protestantism can seem easy to understand. Converts to Catholicism often indicate they realized they previously had a truncated view of bible and tradition.

-One can also align one’s personal or political beliefs with one of the thousands of denominations. If you believe in remarriage without annulment, abortion, etc., you can find a denomination that accepts your view. This attracts the increasing influence of liberal politics and secularism on society. Catholicism, in its fullness of truth, does less to attract secularism.

• Protestantism seems to focus more on bible study, which is great. Catholics need more of that. At the same time, salvation is not completely an intellectual exercise. There is not a bible exam at the gates of heaven.

-Protestantism often places a higher premium on winning converts. While the Catholic Church has highlighted the New Evangelization, we tend to focus more on spreading the good news rather than winning converts. To me, this better reflects inherent credibility.

• I was catechized during the 1980s and 1990s. I have heard others say that, at some point, catechesis was watered down. It focused more on God’s love, the basic prayers, morality, etc. and less so on doctrine, dogma, etc. This is more or less how I remember it. Some suspect this may have been a reaction to the secularization of society, particularly in the 1960s and 1970s. In other words, they tried to react to a reduction of interest. One can argue whether or not it was the right course of action.

-** In a 1994 presentation aired on EWTN, Mother Angelica said that liberals had been trying to change the church. ** She said it had been happening for many years and that Catholics had been quiet for far too long. That was over 20 years ago. Additionally, we now know through Wiki leaks that progressives have been trying to infiltrate the Catholic Church to further their causes. I have little doubt this had some degree of impact.

To summarize, there are a variety of forces that have watered down Catholic catechesis and which ultimately lured people away from the Church. We have lost people to atheism, Protestantism, etc. However, this does not make the Catholic Church any less true. We are imperfect people making imperfect decisions, but Christ will be with our Church until the end. As you noted, there are people still converting to Catholicism and for good reason.

I hope to see a more balanced approach to catechesis for all Catholics, including RCIA, Sunday school, the media, and Sunday sermons. I hope they do not lose the message of love and morality, but increase knowledge of history and doctrine. I have read the seminaries are reverting to a more traditional approach, and I think that is a good thing.

Your comment about Mother Angelica stirred a memory. I do remember Mother Angelica speaking a tirade against modernists in the Church. This may be the one you are thinking of here. I found it on youtube. I recall that EWTN was on during a family gathering at my in-law’s house, and when Mother Angelica got going, all conversation just stopped.

youtube.com/watch?v=x-19VyUgbNQ

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Hi!
…I thinking you’re hitting close to the target… though not so much “rules” but “responsibility;” Protestantism is freeing… a person could shop around for the “right” theology, the “right” culture, the “right” spirituality… (well, as long as nothing points to Catholicism); one Sacrament or two?, great! …wait, no Sacrament?, excellent! …“just claimed it and I’m Saved?” “Hurray, the Holy Spirit has finally freed me! No more rules; heck, we can make them up as we go!”

Catholicism rebukes and demands–it does not offer a “feel good” theology; rather, it asserts that our Fellowship with Christ must be experience in full Obedient to God’s Commandments!

Most contemporary “Believers” seek instant gratification (freedom to think and do as one pleases), a sense of security (yeah, even if false), and to be entertained (less obligations, more music, more noise, more “feel good,” more recognition, though most would object to it: acclamation).

Maran atha!

Angel

Yeah, ultimately you become your own authority on the protestant side. They are going to claim the bible is their final, objective standard of authority, but it cant be if they are all reading it and interpreting it differently. So it’s Jesus and me instead of the way HE established it which is Jesus and WE(Church). I eventually saw the error in this way of thinking, but I was a agnostic until age 27, and I think had a been a cradle protestant with all those years of conditioning, i may have never came to such realization.

I think we can be a more loving and compassionate Church w/o watering down our theology. In fact, with the charismatic renewal it is already happening.

 

[jcrichton]

Clearly, catechesis is vitally important, but it is only one side of the coin. The other side is conversion, and the fact that this is missing from the catechetical process may be one reason why Protestant groups that do stress a conversion experience have such an influence on lapsed cradle Catholics.

At some point each child-catechumen must realize, “Wow, this stuff is important! I need to learn it and apply it in my life!” This is conversion. Without it, the process of catechesis can be nothing more than pouring water into a sieve. I firmly believe that this is why we see religious education classrooms populated by vacant-eyed kids that can’t wait for dismissal, so they can get on with something really important, like hunting pokemons. Come time for Confirmation, they walk into the ceremony as practicing sinners and walk out as confirmed practicing sinners.

Hi, Dave!
Wow!

…you’ve said a mouth-full!

But it is a learned behavior. Parents who are not strong in the Faith (practice and knowledge) are poor role models–for that matter, where are the God-parents?

Hollowood has indoctrinated the mind of the young and old–people’s mind have been trained to seek pleasure and reject pain; the old “thinking hurts” has become the apex goal of modern society–personified by credos like “don’t worry, be happy,” “just do it,” “play it loud” or “don’t judge.”

The Catholic Church has forever been the greatest target of the insurrection since she alone maintains that “parental” semblance that demands that man must think and act Guided by God’s Will and not surrender to his thirst for lust, wealth, and power.

Practicing sinners are not only practicing sin but are practiced (educated in subterfuge) sinners–this, I’m afraid, begins at home!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

As a 65 year old cradle Catholic who was educated in Catholic schools through college I agree with those that suggest we were poorly cathechized. However, I would like to add that people in my age group also lived through a great transition in our church following Vatican II. I was almost out of gradeschool when the changes began and I would have to say that even though I went to Mass 6 days per week, I could say both the priest’s and the participants parts of the Mass in Latin, I still did not really know what was going on. Now as I read your post and reflect on what you have experienced I would have to say that there are probably so many reasons for what you have seen that we could never p(name removed by moderator)oint it well enough to make any real difference. What I have been trying to do for years now is learn what I should know as someone who want to be a good Catholic in this secular world. And that is the place where I think we can do the most, in response to your question about what we can do to help them, we must know our faith as well as possible. When we are approached with questions we need to be solid in our knowledge of the CCC and show in our behavior how living by these truths bring peace into our lives. We can not ever control the choices or behaviors of other people but we can control ours.

Hi, Mountee!
…I think it mostly lays on your ending thought; Catholics, even ignorant ones like my Mom, were taught by the Church to be Faithful to God, that their choice to submit to God’s Will was the true sing of Faithfulness–though Mom never made it past elementary school (removed from school so that she would work on the farm) her knowledge of God came from exercising her Faith. On her death bed she prayed a simple prayer: “Act of Love;” her greatest concern just before she died was that I understood that: “…we are in God’s Hand–in God’s Will…”

Sadly, most Catholics do not live out their Faith; what is worst, Catholics, as others, teach their children only what they know (through both transmission and practice)… compound this experience with the cultural changes which the Church is only beginning to ascertain… well, the gaps get bigger and the Faith keeps losing ground–Jesus warned us about this when He asked that when the Son of man would Come back would He find Faith on earth?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[mattp0625]

Your comment about Mother Angelica stirred a memory. I do remember Mother Angelica speaking a tirade against modernists in the Church. This may be the one you are thinking of here. I found it on youtube. I recall that EWTN was on during a family gathering at my in-law’s house, and when Mother Angelica got going, all conversation just stopped.

youtube.com/watch?v=x-19VyUgbNQ

Yes, that’s the one.

I only saw it when they replayed it during her memorial ceremonies.

I am wondering if she knew how deeply the politicians were involved before Wikileaks and everyone else knew.

 

[MaryT777]

Excellent post 1Lord1Faith !

It’s not really rocket science. The OP and other converts are coming into the Catholic Church as adults. You’ve been taught in adult language what the truth and understanding of our faith is. You can read Aquinas, Augustine, The Church Doctors or the St. Popes to get understanding of the Catholic faith.

Are you going to hit a Catholic kindergartener with Aquinas or Theology of the Body ? Seriously ? It would be like an adult playing the game show Jeopardy with a second grader. We had our faith taught to us in baby steps because we were babies. We got our religious education however we could get it, not all of us went to Catholic School. But, interestingly, most of the kids that I know that had gone to Catholic Schools are no longer Catholic. Back then it was the rules that were mostly taught, not so much the faith. Huge gaps all over the place, we just didn’t know it.

We were DISCOURAGED from reading the Bible because we might interpret passages the wrong way. So, of course, when these young Catholics went out on their own, they were ignorant of their faith and of what the Bible taught… sitting ducks waiting to be plucked.

I do get tired of being blanket bashed by new Catholics coming into the faith as adults, having learned the faith as an adult vs we Cradle Catholic “hicks”. Unfortunate for us, we thought we had been taught the faith and as adults are finding out that in reality, we were taught very little. I guess nobody ever mentioned the fact to we little kids that learning the faith is a life long process.

You make an excellent point about learning the Faith as a child versus learning it as an adult. I always appreciate the new found zealousness many converts have for the Faith but they do have the adult advantage.

I appreciate anyone willing to evangelize others such as some new converts like to do and may many bring some fallen away cradle Catholics back to the Faith.

Mary.

 

[LatinRight]

Yeah, ultimately you become your own authority on the protestant side. They are going to claim the bible is their final, objective standard of authority, but it cant be if they are all reading it and interpreting it differently. So it’s Jesus and me instead of the way HE established it which is Jesus and WE(Church). I eventually saw the error in this way of thinking, but I was a agnostic until age 27, and I think had a been a cradle protestant with all those years of conditioning, i may have never came to such realization.

I think we can be a more loving and compassionate Church w/o watering down our theology. In fact, with the charismatic renewal it is already happening.

Blessings Lenten ashes,

I always try to read your posts and I like them.

I don’t really know the charismatic renewal.

Do you think the Charismatic Catholics watering down some of our theology?

If yes, could you please give some examples of it.

Thanks you in advance.

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[Michael_Francis]

***Departed from topic and closed.

MORATORIUM: Charismatic Movement***