Problems with dogmas regarding Adam and Eve

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As far as Im aware the faithful are required to believe Adam and Eve had imortal bodies before the fall. However i find that the biblical narrative does not support this, so here are my reasons.

My reading of genesis 3 begs me to interpret this differently. To me it seems that eating from the tree of life grants immortality to man. God put man in the garden with access to the tree of life and gave no command not to eat from it. So Adam had access and the right to obtain immortality but he was not created with immortality. Upon eating from the tree of knowledge however, he lost the chance to obtain immortality for he was banished from the garden.
Reasons why this view makes sense from the text.
  1. gen 3:22 seems to suggest 4 things, that the tree of life gives eternal life; that Adam lost the chance to obtain immortality; that Adam had not yet eaten from the tree of life; he would only need to eat from it once to obtain eternal life.
  2. Also considering that Adam only need to eat from the tree of knowledge once to obtain knowledge permanently, then only eating from the tree of life once grants life permanently.
  3. The text never mentions Adam eating from the tree of life before the fall.
The main difference im getting at is, that God did not create man with an immortal body, rather God gave man a choice between Life and Knowledge. Man chose knowledge and not life. Man had access to immortality he was not created in an imortal state

Other questions to consider regaining jesus and man’s original state.

If Jesus did not have original sin how was he able to suffer, how was he able to die?

If Jesus was never crucified would he have suffered a natural death?

This also has me wonder about weather or not Man had sanctifying grace, i would not contend that adam did not have free will but did he have sanctifying grace im not sure. That can be another post however.
 
zekidan said:
As far as Im aware the faithful are required to believe Adam and Eve had imortal bodies before the fall. However i find that the biblical narrative does not support this, so here are my reasons.

My reading of genesis 3 begs me to interpret this differently. To me it seems that eating from the tree of life grants immortality to man. God put man in the garden with access to the tree of life and gave no command not to eat from it. So Adam had access and the right to obtain immortality but he was not created with immortality. Upon eating from the tree of knowledge however, he lost the chance to obtain immortality for he was banished from the garden.
Reasons why this view makes sense from the text.
  1. gen 3:22 seems to suggest 4 things, that the tree of life gives eternal life; that Adam lost the chance to obtain immortality; that Adam had not yet eaten from the tree of life; he would only need to eat from it once to obtain eternal life.
  2. Also considering that Adam only need to eat from the tree of knowledge once to obtain knowledge permanently, then only eating from the tree of life once grants life permanently.
  3. The text never mentions Adam eating from the tree of life before the fall.
The main difference im getting at is, that God did not create man with an immortal body, rather God gave man a choice between Life and Knowledge. Man chose knowledge and not life. Man had access to immortality he was not created in an imortal state

Other questions to consider regaining jesus and man’s original state.

If Jesus did not have original sin how was he able to suffer, how was he able to die?

If Jesus was never crucified would he have suffered a natural death?

This also has me wonder about weather or not Man had sanctifying grace, i would not contend that adam did not have free will but did he have sanctifying grace im not sure. That can be another post however.
Click to expand...
As one who believes that Genesis account of the fall is simply an allegory to attempt to explain to an ancient nomadic people their origin and resolve the conflict of how a God of perfection could allow evil, sin, and death into the world, personally I think you are overthinking the whole thing. Kind of like trying to resolve how Noah got polar bears, penguins, kangaroos, and western diamondback rattlesnakes on the ark. They are allegorical stories to try to make a point.

Enjoy the discussion. From here on out on this thread … 🍿

As to your questions about Jesus, I hope to spend eons in his presence, listening to his answers to these questions.

Shalom
 
zekidan said:
As far as Im aware the faithful are required to believe Adam and Eve had imortal bodies before the fall. However i find that the biblical narrative does not support this, so here are my reasons.

My reading of genesis 3 begs me to interpret this differently. To me it seems that eating from the tree of life grants immortality to man. God put man in the garden with access to the tree of life and gave no command not to eat from it. So Adam had access and the right to obtain immortality but he was not created with immortality. Upon eating from the tree of knowledge however, he lost the chance to obtain immortality for he was banished from the garden.
Reasons why this view makes sense from the text.
  1. gen 3:22 seems to suggest 4 things, that the tree of life gives eternal life; that Adam lost the chance to obtain immortality; that Adam had not yet eaten from the tree of life; he would only need to eat from it once to obtain eternal life.
  2. Also considering that Adam only need to eat from the tree of knowledge once to obtain knowledge permanently, then only eating from the tree of life once grants life permanently.
  3. The text never mentions Adam eating from the tree of life before the fall.
The main difference im getting at is, that God did not create man with an immortal body, rather God gave man a choice between Life and Knowledge. Man chose knowledge and not life. Man had access to immortality he was not created in an imortal state.
Click to expand...
As far as I know, we are not required to believe Adam and Eve had imortal bodies before the fall.

However, they had the tree of life, its fruit which they can freely eat, and thus, live forever.

Eat the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever. (Gen 2:7 and Gen 3:22)

After the fall, the tree of life is not available anymore because God had placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life, lest ”the man put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.” (Gen 3:22)

In God’s plan for salvation, we now can only eat of the fruit of the tree of life which give eternal life but which in the form of Jesus own blood (and body) as the river of life which we now eat and drink and live forever, in the afterlife.
zekidan said:
Other questions to consider regaining jesus and man’s original state.

If Jesus did not have original sin how was he able to suffer, how was he able to die?

If Jesus was never crucified would he have suffered a natural death?

This also has me wonder about weather or not Man had sanctifying grace, i would not contend that adam did not have free will but did he have sanctifying grace im not sure. That can be another post however.
Click to expand...
You seem to come with premises that are not conventional in Christianity, but never mind.

Jesus came into humanity and therefore experienced all that human experience except for sin. The word is, except for sin, otherwise he is just like you and me in human term.

Death was Jesus’ mission. It is impossible for God not to be to able to achieve what he has set to do. So that assumption is moot, I suppose.

I do not understand that part of your question about sanctifying grace and Adam.
 
joeybaggz said:
As one who believes that Genesis account of the fall is simply an allegory to attempt to explain to an ancient nomadic people their origin and resolve the conflict of how a God of perfection could allow evil, sin, and death into the world, personally I think you are overthinking the whole thing. Kind of like trying to resolve how Noah got polar bears, penguins, kangaroos, and western diamondback rattlesnakes on the ark. They are allegorical stories to try to make a point.

Enjoy the discussion. From here on out on this thread … 🍿

As to your questions about Jesus, I hope to spend eons in his presence, listening to his answers to these questions.

Shalom
Click to expand...
I second that. What is all this business about immortal bodies, Adam didn’t eat the fruit of the tree, etc.??? Are we reading the same Bible?

This seems to be one of those “questions” that are simply baiting the reader. Sorry, I’m not biting.
 
far as Im aware the faithful are required to believe Adam and Eve had **imortal bodies **before the fall. However i find that the biblical narrative does not support this…
Click to expand...
Nope, not immortal bodies.

Immortal bodies never die.

ICXC NIKA
 
I think I’ve read that Adam and Eve were created for eternal life, but that the source of it was the tree of life. It wasn’t anything in them or any part of their “construction” that gave it to them. I’m not aware of any dogmas concerning this.
 
Tim_D said:
What is your source that “requires” Catholics to believe this?
Click to expand...
As far as im aware these are the dogmas of the Catholic church regarding adam and eve and there level of certainty.

The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
**Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. **(De fide.)
The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
The donum immortalitatis, i.e., bodily immortality. (De fide.)
The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
 
joeybaggz said:
As one who believes that Genesis account of the fall is simply an allegory to attempt to explain to an ancient nomadic people their origin and resolve the conflict of how a God of perfection could allow evil, sin, and death into the world, personally I think you are overthinking the whole thing. Kind of like trying to resolve how Noah got polar bears, penguins, kangaroos, and western diamondback rattlesnakes on the ark. They are allegorical stories to try to make a point.

Enjoy the discussion. From here on out on this thread … 🍿

As to your questions about Jesus, I hope to spend eons in his presence, listening to his answers to these questions.

Shalom
Click to expand...
I completely respect the veiw that it is just allegory, however the allegory is ment to represent real events in someway. Regardless of how you personally synchronize the narrative to historical events and how literally, it is by the narrative we recieve our understanding of the faith. My point is that the Catholic church teaches that adam was created with an imortal body.
Dogma:
The donum immortalitatis, i.e., bodily immortality. (De fide.)
It bases this off the narrative in Genesis.

Now simply looking at the text, and reading the narrative, not considering scientific theories, or theories of how the allegory corresponds to a historical event, but simply reading the text and extracting a religious doctrine from it. I don’t see how you can conclude that adam and eve were created with an imortal body with any certainty. Which im pointing out is taught by the church.

Im giving an alternative veiw that adam and eve merly had access to immortality.

However my source could be wrong on the chruches teaching, it came from the internet.
 
zekidan said:
As far as Im aware the faithful are required to believe Adam and Eve had imortal bodies before the fall. However i find that the biblical narrative does not support this, so here are my reasons.
Click to expand...
For the correct information, please google Preternatural Gifts.
My reading of genesis 3 begs me to interpret this differently. To me it seems that eating from the tree of life grants immortality to man. God put man in the garden with access to the tree of life and gave no command not to eat from it. So Adam had access and the right to obtain immortality but he was not created with immortality. Upon eating from the tree of knowledge however, he lost the chance to obtain immortality for he was banished from the garden.
Click to expand...
For the correct information, please review teachings on Original Sin.
Reasons why this view makes sense from the text.
  1. gen 3:22 seems to suggest 4 things, that the tree of life gives eternal life; that Adam lost the chance to obtain immortality; that Adam had not yet eaten from the tree of life; he would only need to eat from it once to obtain eternal life.
  2. Also considering that Adam only need to eat from the tree of knowledge once to obtain knowledge permanently, then only eating from the tree of life once grants life permanently.
Click to expand...
If Original Sin is difficult, please start with the Original Relationship between Divinity and humanity.
  1. The text never mentions Adam eating from the tree of life before the fall.
Click to expand...
Correct.
The main difference im getting at is, that God did not create man with an immortal body, rather God gave man a choice between Life and Knowledge. Man chose knowledge and not life. Man had access to immortality he was not created in an imortal state
Click to expand...
For the correct information, please google Preternatural Gifts.
Other questions to consider regaining jesus and man’s original state.

If Jesus did not have original sin how was he able to suffer, how was he able to die?

If Jesus was never crucified would he have suffered a natural death?
Click to expand...
Please review the teachings on the Most Holy Trinity. Also, please consider the difference between the Creator God and the created creature Adam.
This also has me wonder about weather or not Man had sanctifying grace, i would not contend that adam did not have free will but did he have sanctifying grace im not sure. That can be another post however.
Click to expand...
Please study Catholicism in reference to Genesis 1: 27 and Genesis 2: 7.
 
joeybaggz said:
. Kind of like trying to resolve how Noah got polar bears, penguins, kangaroos, and western diamondback rattlesnakes on the ark. They are allegorical stories to try to make a point.
Click to expand...
Very simple to get fauna into an ark, and Noah did have God’s help 🌈 And a few good kelpies! 🐕

And then God set His bow in the sky so we would remember His Covenant with us. 🌈
 
Erikaspirit16 said:
I second that. What is all this business about immortal bodies, Adam didn’t eat the fruit of the tree, etc.??? Are we reading the same Bible?

This seems to be one of those “questions” that are simply baiting the reader. Sorry, I’m not biting.
Click to expand...
Im not sure what you mean by baiting the reader, I ask an honest question about the text.
Can u site a verse that says adam ate from the tree of life. Do you have a reason to deny that the Catholic Church does not teach that adam had an immortal body. I gave my source in a post above so if you have information to show it false that is greatly appreciated.
 
zekidan said:
As far as im aware these are the dogmas of the Catholic church regarding adam and eve and there level of certainty.

The first man was created by God. (De fide.)
The whole human race stems from one single human pair. (Sent. certa.)
**Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace. **(De fide.)
The donum rectitudinis or integritatis in the narrower sense, i.e., the freedom from irregular desire. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
The donum immortalitatis, i.e., bodily immortality. (De fide.)
The donum impassibilitatis, i.e., the freedom from suffering. (Sent. communis.)
The donum scientiae, i.e., a knowledge of natural and supernatural truths infused by God. (Sent. communis.)
Adam received sanctifying grace not merely for himself, but for all his posterity. (Sent. certa.)
Our first parents in paradise sinned grievously through transgression of the Divine probationary commandment. (De fide.)
Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God. (De fide.)
Our first parents became subject to death and to the dominion of the Devil. (De fide.) D788.
Click to expand...
Here is the website I got the dogmas from.

catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchdocuments/dogmas.html
 
zekidan said:
Here is the website I got the dogmas from.

catholicfirst.com/thefaith/churchdocuments/dogmas.html
Click to expand...
Ok you need to understand what sanctifying Grace is. Let me see what document the Holy See has on it.

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

And

2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

2024 Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God.” Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.

From

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

Now I cant explain it because I am still understanding it. But we all get Sanctifying Grace.

There might be a member of the clergy or theologian that can explain Sanctifying Grace
 
grannymh said:
For the correct information, please google Preternatural Gifts.

For the correct information, please review teachings on Original Sin.

If Original Sin is difficult, please start with the Original Relationship between Divinity and humanity.

Correct.

For the correct information, please google Preternatural Gifts.

Please review the teachings on the Most Holy Trinity. Also, please consider the difference between the Creator God and the created creature Adam.

Please study Catholicism in reference to Genesis 1: 27 and Genesis 2: 7.
Click to expand...
Do you always ask everyone to look up the answer for themselves? If i had asked the fourm do you think i probably tried researching this for myself. So if you didnt know the answers to my questions, why make a response, and if you did why not tell me. :confused:
 
zekidan said:
Do you always ask everyone to look up the answer for themselves? If i had asked the fourm do you think i probably tried researching this for myself. So if you didnt know why make a response and if you did why not tell me. :confused:
Click to expand...
Don’t google unless its to the Vatican website, on these matters
 
Roseeurekacross said:
Ok you need to understand what sanctifying Grace is. Let me see what document the Holy See has on it.

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

And

2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

2024 Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God.” Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.

From

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

Now I cant explain it because I am still understanding it. But we all get Sanctifying Grace.

There might be a member of the clergy or theologian that can explain Sanctifying Grace
Click to expand...
No im not asking about sanctifying grace in the post. My post focuses on adam and his state before the fall. Was his body immortal? My conclusion that he did not have an immortal body lead me to think he also was without sanctifying grace. But i said i would focus on that in another post. Now im only asking about if adams body was immortal.
 
9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil…
Click to expand...
…16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
Click to expand...
There is no mention of eating from the tree of life, it’s only noted that it is among all the other trees as is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

It seems to suggest that Adam would have lived forever in the state God had created him if he had not eaten from the tree of knowledge…So at that point he could have been immortal 🤷
 
zekidan said:
No im not asking about sanctifying grace in the post. My post focuses on adam and his state before the fall. Was his body immortal? My conclusion that he did not have an immortal body lead me to think he also was without sanctifying grace. But i said i would focus on that in another post. Now im only asking about if adams body was immortal.
Click to expand...
Dead, buried, entombed etc, waiting judgement day. As is Eve, and will be all of us.
Now their souls are a different story.

Pre sin, who knows. God does!

Of course, as with all of us, Adam and Eve had Sanctifying Grace.
 
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