Problems with jesus

  • Thread starter Thread starter MrIsla
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MrIsla said:
So i was curious about jesus today, yet again. and i was doing some research. and one of the first link that came up was

aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Why_Dont_Jews_Believe_In_Jesus$.asp

could i have these questions answered to me, because i believe the rabbi makes some very valid point to me.

thank you, and god bless.

Mr. Isla 👍
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You are going to have to give way better links to the web site to get many replies. I am sure it is the same old story told time and time again… Wake me when it’s over
 
you know what? why do you have to be a diva? im not a scholar? im just an average guy who believes in the lord? if your not going to answer it then dont reply?
 
MrIsla–
The link you provided didn’t work for me.Maybe if you copy and paste it on to here then I could see what you’re reading.

Thank you
 
MrIsla said:
you know what? why do you have to be a diva? im not a scholar? im just an average guy who believes in the lord? if your not going to answer it then dont reply?
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The link does not work.
 
MrIsla said:
you know what? why do you have to be a diva? im not a scholar? im just an average guy who believes in the lord? if your not going to answer it then dont reply?
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The link does not work. When you reference a link we need to be able to click on the link and get it to work.
 
Link has been fixed.

For future reference, all you need do on such urls is copy it and open a 2nd tab and then paste it in your browser window and tap enter on your keyboard. I checked it and it worked for me both ways.

A blessed Advent to you all. 🙂
 
I’m sure there are others far more qualified to answer some of the assertions in that link. I have just a few thoughts after skimming the material. It mentions that the Messiah is supposed to build the 3rd temple. When Jesus was alive there was no need for a 3rd temple as Herod had already built a perfectly good 2nd temple that was still standing. Although Jesus did prophesy about the destruction of the temple.

“You see all of these things, do you not? Truly I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down’” (Matthew 24:1-2)”.

When the temple was destroyed in 70 a.d. by the Romans Jesus had already risen!

That leads to my second thought. WHERE’S THE BODY??? The Pharisees could have put an instant nail in the coffin of that “Budding heretical Jewish sect… Christianity” by simply producing a body after Jesus Crucifixion. It would have stopped the emergence of Christiany dead in it’s tracks simply by bringing all believers to the tomb and showing them the body… Done… finis!!! No Christianity. The problem is they couldn’t produce a body because He rose from the dead. That’s not insignificant! That was not a trick the devil could do, nor could any human. ONLY GOD COULD RAISE FROM THE DEAD!!!

As Saint Paul said,
and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 1 Corinthians 15:14

It all hinges on that. He’s Alive!!!
 
People here get a little jaded. We’ve seen this argument before, and it was getting old back in the first century.

See, that’s our family argument right there. Peter and Martha say, “Yup, you’re the Messiah, the Son of God.” Thomas says, “My Lord and my God!” Meanwhile, other folks disagree.
  1. Many key messianic prophecies were fulfilled, from Genesis on. Better yet, many of the amplifications provided to scripture by the Septuagint translation were also fulfilled, which was very convincing to Jews who primarily knew the scriptures in Greek. Also, certain books with prophecies accepted by Jews in Jesus’ time were fulfilled. After the rise of Christianity and the destruction of Temple Judaism, the rabbis removed those 7 books from the Bible which they now found to be a boon to Christian argument.
Other key messianic prophecies still remain to be fulfilled at the end of time, but this is pretty typical of other prophetic fulfillments that happened during Old Testament times. Seldom does God tell His prophets all at once about things that will happen all at once.
  1. I think it’s fairly obvious that Jesus had all the messianic qualifications listed here. He was a prophet, and proved it making by predictions and having them come true, and by bringing people to repentance. He was descended from the line of David: biologically on His mother’s side and by adoption by St. Joseph. An adopted son is no different than a biological son, when it comes to descent, or brothers couldn’t marry their deceased brother’s wife and raise up a son who’d count as descended from the dead brother. And Jesus did teach people to observe the Torah – not a jot or tittle of it was to pass away. If some people didn’t like his interpretation of how to observe it – well, two Jews and three opinions, even today. Certainly he had plenty of scriptural and oral Torah backing for his teaching.
  2. The “mistranslation” issues are also a very old family argument. If you are really interested, you want to go do some scripture study, and find out more than you ever wanted to know about Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, and so on. “The girl will get pregnant and have a son” is not exactly a stunning and convincing sign from the Lord, so clearly something else was always going on there. The Septuagint scholars brought out what Jews of their time thought it really meant.
I’m deeply insulted by the rabbi’s disrespectful misquoting of St. Gregory Nazianzen. He was scarcely a sleight of hand artist; rather, he was a very painstaking Biblical scholar. So the question to ask is – where in St. Gregory’s vast catalog of works did he say this, and what was he talking about? Why did the rabbi not tell us this?
  1. Jews of Jesus’ time didn’t think that God was only talking to Jews. They evangelized. They fully expected the nations to convert – another messianic prophecy.
  2. Christianity doesn’t contradict Jewish theology; it builds on it. Again, post-Temple, post-Christian Judaism had a powerful incentive to run the other way from Christianity. But even so, you hear a lot from Jews about God’s Presence or Breath or Wisdom (the Shekinah) in terms that make it sound like a separate entity. And indeed, we would say that Wisdom, playing before the Lord at the Creation, is another name of the Son; and that the overshadowing Presence or Breath is indeed the Holy Spirit. And let’s not forget “let us make man”. 🙂
I’m really amused where the good rabbi says that Judaism has nothing to do with priests praying for people. Since Jews have no Temple now, yes, that is the case. Hardly something to brag about.

You’ll also notice that this section is riddled with mischaracterization of Catholic and Christian doctrine (as indeed the whole article is). We’re not Gnostics, and we think the physical world is good, just as Jews don’t refrain from eating shrimp because they think shrimp are horribly cursed minions of evil. Just like Jews, sometimes we set people and things apart, and sometimes we abstain or fast from good things. Wow. Big huge difference there.
  1. I thought the rabbi said that Gentiles weren’t involved in this stuff. 🙂
  2. Now here’s a big huge difference. Not. 🙂
Basically, if Jews could see things the Christian way, they’d convert. And they did and do. This guy disagrees (often with stuff that’s not really what Christians believe), and so he’s Jewish. Big shocker there.

Of course, a lot of Jewish Christians were equally shocked by the post-Temple changes in Judaism. The removal of the seven books was a big sore point, but there were plenty of others. Again, this is something you can read about, if you’re really interested.

(I’ll warn you that the arguments between such early Christians and Jews are just as… energetic… as the ones I heard once between an Orthodox and a Reform Jew at an event I attended. They started arguing in a crowded room full of refreshments, and everybody ended up abandoning the candy and cookies for several hours, just to get away.)
 
cranster said:
I’m sure there are others far more qualified to answer some of the assertions in that link. I have just a few thoughts after skimming the material. It mentions that the Messiah is supposed to build the 3rd temple. When Jesus was alive there was no need for a 3rd temple as Herod had already built a perfectly good 2nd temple that was still standing. Although Jesus did prophesy about the destruction of the temple.
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That doesn’t change the fact that he didn’t fulfill the prophecy. If he didn’t fulfill it, then he’s not this supposed messiah.
That leads to my second thought. WHERE’S THE BODY??? The Pharisees could have put an instant nail in the coffin of that “Budding heretical Jewish sect… Christianity” by simply producing a body after Jesus Crucifixion. It would have stopped the emergence of Christiany dead in it’s tracks simply by bringing all believers to the tomb and showing them the body… Done… finis!!! No Christianity. The problem is they couldn’t produce a body because He rose from the dead. That’s not insignificant! That was not a trick the devil could do, nor could any human. ONLY GOD COULD RAISE FROM THE DEAD!!!
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That only makes sense if you assume everything in the gospels is truth. The existence of Jesus himself is sketchy, we certainly cannot assume that every detail of his life is spot on. He could be a composite character taken from more then one person claiming to be messiah, or he may never have even been crucified. All we know for certain is that the gospels are not completely truthful accounts, as many aspects of the gospel conflict with the archeological record.
 
Re: the rabbi’s quotation from St. Gregory Nazianzen

Apparently, this quotation shows up in a lot of anti-Catholic or anti-Christian sources, and it looks like none of them want any part of the context or provide what edition they got the translation from. (Probably not from a good edition, then.)

It actually comes not from the works of St. Gregory of Nazianzus, but from a letter by his pupil, St. Jerome, to a young friend just starting out in the clerical life named Nepotianus. Nepotianus had asked Jerome to write him an encouraging letter about life serving the Church, which Jerome did.

It’s a lovely letter, full of interesting stuff. Jerome declares that wisdom and study are his version of David’s wife Abishag, who warmed him when he grew old. He gives Nepotianus lots of practical advice, and then looks back at some things his own teacher said. Here’s the part where the “jargon” shows up, although this translation brings it out quite differently.

"When teaching in church seek to call forth not plaudits but groans. Let the tears of your hearers be your glory. A presbyter’s [priest’s] words ought to be seasoned by his reading of scripture. Be not a declaimer or a ranter, one who gabbles without rhyme or reason; but show yourself skilled in the deep things and versed in the mysteries of God.

"To mouthe your words and by your quickness of utterance astonish the unlettered crowd is a mark of ignorance. Assurance often explains that of which it knows nothing; and when it has convinced others imposes on itself. My teacher, Gregory of Nazianzus, when I once asked him to explain Luke’s phrase σάββατον δευτερόπρωτον , that is “the second-first Sabbath,” playfully evaded my request saying: ‘I will tell you about it in church, and there, when all the people applaud me, you will be forced against your will to know what you do not know at all. For, if you alone remain silent, every one will put you down for a fool.’

"There is nothing so easy as by sheer volubility to deceive a common crowd or an uneducated congregation: such most admire what they fail to understand. Hear Marcus Tullius, the subject of that noble eulogy: “You would have been the first of orators but for Demosthenes: he would have been the only one but for you.” Hear what in his speech for Quintus Gallius he has to say about unskilled speakers and popular applause and then you will not be the sport of such illusions.

““What I am telling you,” said he, “is a recent experience of my own. One who has the name of a poet and a man of culture has written a book entitled Conversations of Poets and Philosophers. In this he represents Euripides as conversing with Menander and Socrates with Epicurus—men whose lives we know to be separated not by years but by centuries. Nevertheless he calls forth limitless applause and endless acclamations. For the theatre contains many who belong to the same school as he: like him they have never learned letters.””

[In this context, “letters” means “literature”. They were literate but not well-educated.]
 
I’m fairly sure there’s more documentation for Jesus’ existence, and more accounts by eyewitnesses for his life, than there are for Virgilius Maro. Even without the fragments of Papias.

So… let’s start a movement claiming that Virgil was a composite! Never mind the overpoweringly distinctive Virgilian style. He’s a composite now!

Seriously, it’s ludicrous to claim that Jesus didn’t exist. You don’t have to believe he’s God, but it’s pretty clear that he’s a real historical character.
 
The fallacy is that Christ to qualify as Messiah would have to have done all these things by 33 A.D.

As a Catholic, I read this list and say, “Yup, Christ is doing all these things through his Bride.”

It’s nothing new to Christians—the scales will not fall from Jewish eyes until the end, whereupon Christ will have manifestly accomplished everything Isaiah prophesied he would.
 
Mersenne said:
That doesn’t change the fact that he didn’t fulfill the prophecy.
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There were two comings of the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament. Many of the prophesies were fulfilled by Jesus Christ in the First Coming, the rest will be fulfilled in His Second Coming. Here they are:

Zechariah 9:9
Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.

Daniel 7:13
In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.

Here is a Jewish interpretation:

“R. [Rabbi] Alexandri said: R. Joshua opposed two verses: it is written, And behold, one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven, whilst [elsewhere] it is written, lowly, and riding upon an [donkey]! — if they are meritorious, with the clouds of heaven; if not, lowly and riding upon an [donkey].” – Sanhedrin 98a (Scriptures referenced are Daniel 7:13 and Zechariah 9:9.)

Of course, there is no “if” in either prophecy. They will both be fulfilled - one was in 33AD, the other will be soon!

Hosea 6:2
He will revive us after two days; He will raise us up on the third day, That we may live before Him.

2 Peter 3:3-8
First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised?”… But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years…

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
 
Mersenne said:
He has zero accounts by eyewitnesses for his life.
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The Gospels of Matthew and John, the letters of John, Peter, and Jude, are all eye-witness accounts.

The Gospels of Mark and Luke are testimonies from eye-witnesses, recorded by another (Mark wrote down Peter’s account, and Luke compiled the testimony of a number of people and recorded it as a single story, in typical Greek biographical style).

By any standards, that’s a LOT of eye-witness recording for the first century A.D. It’s actually a lot even for today (how many eye-witness biographies do you or I have written about us)?

Peace and God bless!
 
Ghosty said:
The Gospels of Matthew and John, the letters of John, Peter, and Jude, are all eye-witness accounts.
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So says the catholic church, but that’s not the opinion of most historians, nor is it where the evidence points. Was Matthew present at the birth of Christ? He accounts it. If it’s an eye witness account he must have been there.
 
Hmm…I note the date on the site is 2008, but the ‘points’ are a list of the USUAL arguments…

ALL have been ANSWERED over and over in the past decade! Better check with the Rabbi that he actually still ‘asks’ these same requirements or whether the site have just regurgitated old views.

Wish I had the time, but suffice it to say, after a quick squiz, there is NOT ONE point that has not been answered…

:cool:
 
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