Hi Adrian,
I once was given the Baltimore Catechism by a Catholic. I know there is an official seal approved by the Vatican on certain Catholic Catechism. I did not know that Council of Trent doc is considered a Catechism.Actually there are not many official Catechisms. Prior to the current one, you’d have to go back about 500 years – to the Council of Trent Catechism. Before that, I don’t know.
There are secondary, so to speak, which are always to be in conformity to the official catechism. (Eg. Catechisms for school children, catechumens, etc.) But they are secondary, and if something is questionable in them (which after Vatican II unfortunately happened a LOT in our Church) one had to refer to the official Catechism to check its veracity. The problem was, a lot of people didn’t realize what was being put forth was questionable. The problem was finally recognized by the bishops, and efforts are being taken to start correcting the problem. But, that’s another whole thread.
Thanks for your insight. Would you agree this concept of “Christless Christianiy” can be found in Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, etc professing Christians across the board? It seems some can preach a moral gospel with a moral agenda instead of proclaiming Jesus Christ and Him crucified for the sinner.
The Baltimore Catechism was one of those (what I called) secondary catechisms.
I’m guessing heretics like Joel Osteen who preach a better life with examples from Scripture. “Have your best life now”? Yes, because we can totally have a better life now than in Heaven
We had been SLOWLY, methodically lured away from the TRUTH, away from the ONE Church. To stand up to that Bishop now would have been to admit hypocracy. Nobody did. Almost everyone, with the small exception of a few conservative priest from a nearby parish, caved in total SILENCE.
That’s very educational. I am very familiar with the Council of Trent document with all those anathemas. If you want to understand historic Protestantism, just studyTrent, since the anathemas were against what historic Protestants believed and still believe. I still believe the 5 solas of the Reformation best summarizes true Protestantism. It’s very difficult as you know to understand all of the different contemporary churches because most have left the core essential doctrines from the Reformation. I guess faith alone is just a short cut which divides us as Christians… the imputed verse infused position, or the forensic justification. I want to thank you for your Christian kindness, and will continue to discuss things if you’d like.
Thanks for the link. I watched it on the other thread that you created. Your comment is very insightful. The author of the book “Christless Christianity” starts by talking about the false gospel of Joel Osteen. Then the author discusses more convservative churches that we both probably attend, and how it can turn into a Christless Christianity. A personal relationship with Jesus Christ has made American into gnostic believers. It’s a must read for all American Christians who love the gospel of God. I’m almost done with the book, and plan on reading it again. Here’s a link to it again:I’m guessing heretics like Joel Osteen who preach a better life with examples from Scripture. “Have your best life now”? Yes, because we can totally have a better life now than in Heaven
Also, TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network) is another Carnal “Christian” group who preach that you are a god, that Jesus isn’t the only Begotten from the Father, that Jesus did not come to earth to be the Messiah, that Jesus refused to claim to be the Messiah, that the Jews can’t be blamed for Christ’s death because Christ never offered Himself as Messiah, that women can be pastors, that we are sons of God, that PRAYING IS GIVING MAN GOD PERMISSION to interfere, that God can’t do anything unless a man gives Him access, that God is looking for humans to give Him power and permission, that God can not do anything you didn’t permit Him to do, etc. Proof? Here: youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eSh02P43g
I like ETWN better.
Thanks for sharing your spiritual journey. I’m glad you found a home with the Catholic Church. I think Catholics and Protestants have sinned against homosexuals as a group of sinners. We are all sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God. I believe a person’s view on homosexuality and same sex marriage has nothing to do with the gospel of God. Jesus never addressed homosexuality or same sex mairrage. And there are only about 8 verses in Scripture dealing with the subject, and when those verses are taken in context, Catholics and Protestants make the issue much much greater than the Scriptures. This is what I call a Christless Christainity when a moral gospel, or moral agenda becomes primary… over and above the gospel of God. Evangelicals and right wing conservatism is more passionate about the topic of abortion and homosexuality than the good news of God about His Son for sinners. It is a moral gospel as compare to the true gospel. I think the tradition family value agenda is off the mark too. When you think about it, the great heroes of the faith in the Old Testament do not fit into the mold of the traditional family as defined by Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons.2nd Adam:
Interesting thread. I have my own idea of how “Christless Christianity” got started.
First let me say that I have journeyed through almost the entire gauntlet of protestant churches over the course of my life, and even sincerely investigated some non-christian religions along the way. I’m so VERY happy to tell you that I received confirmation in the Roman Catholic Church at this Easter Vigil this year. It was a LONG, rough journey… but I’m finally HOME, praise God.
I’m quite familiar with all of the traditional protestant catechisms that have been briefly mentioned above. In some ways they are all very beautiful, and are motivated by a purity of heart and conscience… but each and every one of them is ultimately flawed. When I started RCIA last autumn I was handed a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church for the very first time, and I was AMAZED at the clear answers I found to the apparent doctrinal quandaries extant in the other catechisms! I could go into details, but that’s another thread. The point I wish to make is that half a brain is a dangerous thing and, while men like Luther and Calvin may have been greatly learned, all the 16th century reformers ultimately let their own personal pride and arrogance destroy the UNITY of the Church. And, as Nita has clearly pointed out, our Lord flatly stated that His Church must remain One in order for it to bear effectual witness to the world (John 17:21).
Once the Church had become bifurcated, it was just a matter of time before the process continued and anyone and everyone could claim himself an “expert”. Now, 500 years later, they all walk around claiming that all they need are the “scriptures”. And this without even knowing that it was the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church which defined what was (and what was not) “scripture” in the first place. Not only that, they can’t even find ANY passage in the “scriptures” which suports the idea that “all we need are the scriptures”!
This loss of respect for the ONENESS of the Church as a sacred institution, CREATED by Christ Himself, has eventually lead to a DENIAL of its author. How so? SLOWLY. Bit by bit, doctrine by doctrine, issue by issue, decade by decade. “Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.” (Gen 3:1)
I left the Anglican Church of Canada some 10 years ago when a retired Bishop came to our parish and lectured us on all the reasons why we had to be accepting of homosexual practice and gay marriage. He came to OUR parish because we had already appointed a female priest, so we must be “progressive” in our outlook (his words). He rationalized homosexual sex by telling us that “Don’t we husbands and our wives sometime engage in sexual acts with no intention of producing offspring? Then why is homosexual sex any different?” (his words).
It was at THAT point that I suddenly recognized the SERPENT.
My wife and I left that day and never returned. We’ve spent the past 10 years wandering like Moses in the wilderness, but now (at last!) we are HOME.
I think it has the potential to arise within any individual, regardless of their outward religious profession. I think it also can manifest itself within the dogmas of even well=intentioned christian denominations that lack the infallible characteristic of the Catholic Church. As an institution, I believe that the Catholic Church is protected from teaching error as truth and can do no other than preach “Christ crucified…”
What is “Christless Christianity”???
Maybe when teachers, Priests, bishops, and those in the Catholic Church who teach contrary to official Catholic positions, the Catholic Church will just excommunicate them… keeping the doctrines pure according to the Magesterium? I think there is much greater diversity in the Catholic Church than most Catholics want to admit. I think Evangelicals have had the reputation for sharing Christ and Him crucified (evangelizing) with greater frequency than those from the Catholic Church. Of course, we both see dimly and know in part.
Nobody is denying sin my friend. Without sin, Christ died in vain. Legalism and self-righteousness manifest itself in all Christian communities (Protestant, Catholics, Orthodox, and Anglicans). Within the issue of homosexuality, I find many who are willing to throw the first stone instead of focusing on the gospel for all humanity. The cross is the great leveler of humanity, and does not discriminate. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. The Word of God reveals that the law is good, driving us to Christ. Don’t mix up a moral agenda with Christ and Him crucified for sinners, bringing the ungodly to God for reconciliation, adoption, transformation… to the praise and glory of God! If you think that the key to Heaven is your personal moral transformation, then good luck. Here is the centrality of Christianity… to the praise of His glorious grace:2nd Adam:
You say: “Thanks for sharing your spiritual journey. I’m glad you found a home with the Catholic Church. I think Catholics and Protestants have sinned against homosexuals as a group of sinners. We are all sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God. I believe a person’s view on homosexuality and same sex marriage has nothing to do with the gospel of God. Jesus never addressed homosexuality or same sex mairrage. And there are only about 8 verses in Scripture dealing with the subject, and when those verses are taken in context, Catholics and Protestants make the issue much much greater than the Scriptures. This is what I call a Christless Christainity when a moral gospel, or moral agenda becomes primary… over and above the gospel of God. Evangelicals and right wing conservatism is more passionate about the topic of abortion and homosexuality than the good news of God about His Son for sinners. It is a moral gospel as compare to the true gospel. I think the tradition family value agenda is off the mark too. When you think about it, the great heroes of the faith in the Old Testament do not fit into the mold of the traditional family as defined by Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons.”
You’ve missed the boat. A church that DENIES SIN also DENIES the need for CHRIST. That’s CHRISTLESS. That’s was my point, brother.
An external Christianity without Christ. Or at least an external Christianity that has loss focus as Christ and Him crucified being central in their churches. I think it’s not just a Protestant tendency found in America, but a 21st century tendency for all professing branches of Christianity. I have read a book called “Christless Christainty” if you are interested.
You say that Jesus didn’t address homosexuality or same sex marriage and I guess that’s correct on one level. However, Jesus did seem to define marriage as follows:
Oh… I think the whole issue of homosexuality and same sex marriage deserves it’s own thread. As a conservative Evangelical, I can just tell you my circle of Christianity has gone beyond what is written in Scripture on the subject of homosexuality. There are 8 verses in Scriptures on the issue. At least you have to admit, the topic is quite relevant in our generation. By the reaction of the two posts, maybe Catholics and Orthodox Christians are just like conservate Evangelicals in regards to moralism and traditional family values as compared to Christ and Him crucified for sinners. Here’s a challenge, let’s see what the Lord Jesus Christ wrote about homosexuality and same sex marriage.
Let’s not make this thread about same sex marriage and homosexuality, okay? To discuss this issue, as a Protestant… I would have to examine the issue in light of the entire Scriptures, reading it with the lenses of the gospel of God’s grace for sinners. You know as well as I, the Catholic Church has Priests, Nuns, Bishops, and members who are homosexuals… which is no different than any other Chrisitan community. Oops, I see that you appear to be Protestant and not Catholic. However, I believe the topic of infused and imputed righteousness is very relevant in our discussion.