Problems with the Book of Mormon

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BartBurk,
I served as a Bishop and never thought for a second about needing to be paid for a dozen or more hours spent per week in that assignment. Tithing goes toward building debt-free buildings such as chapels and temples (one is to be built in Rome, Italy, by the way, in the next few years), paying the utilities for those, paying for buildings such as canneries where food is produced for the poor, paying for costs of securing and preserving records of those who have died so that those records can be accessed by people all over the world.

The General Authorities of the LDS church may receive a stipend for their family expenses, but if you were to line up the cost per recipient of those stipends versus the average pay of all Catholic leaders, there would be no comparison. It is a basic living allowance.

Isn’t it wonderful that Popes and LDS Apostles don’t retire and live into their 90’s, to bless the world with their wisdom and insights and receive longevity through the love they share with all the world?
 
The biggest problem is the LDS take this doctrine from the revelations of Joseph Smith which have been proven spurious (like the Book of Mormon for example). The Catholics don’t want to commit the sin of presumption with regards to God’s mercy. Catholics hope for God’s mercy, but they don’t presume it.
I don’t take “this doctrine from the revelations of Joseph Smith.” I take this doctrine from personal revelation that I know to be true. I have no question about it. That is our point. God will reveal His doctrine to each and every person who asks in faith, nothing doubting, if they are willing to live by the doctrine. (He would not reveal doctrine to condemn us, only to lift us and bring us happiness and joy.)
 
BartBurk,
Here is part of the citation you linked:

"The document traced the development of church thinking about the fate of unbaptized children, noting that there is “no explicit answer” from Scripture or tradition.

In the fifth century, St. Augustine concluded that infants who die without baptism were consigned to hell. By the 13th century, theologians referred to the “limbo of infants” as a place where unbaptized babies were deprived of the vision of God, but did not suffer because they did not know what they were deprived of.

Through the centuries, popes and church councils were careful not to define limbo as a doctrine of the faith and to leave the question open. That was important in allowing an evolution of the teaching, the theological commission said."

This is a pretty good example of impure “doctrine” not well understood, needing “evolution.”

The LDS church has no qualms about teaching that there is no such thing as “original sin” and that infants and children under age 8 who die go to heaven, without equivocation or hesitation about the clear and pure doctrine.
By the way it’s easy to come up with doctrines that please the people if you are not constrained by scripture and tradition – that’s why the Mormon Church can take such liberal positions on abortion and contraception after opposing them for years. And Mormon leaders didn’t flinch about changing the temple ceremonies after taking a poll among its members which showed them many members were uncomfortable with certain aspects of the temple. That was enough to make some major changes in the “inspired” temple ceremonies.
 
By the way it’s easy to come up with doctrines that please the people if you are not constrained by scripture and tradition – that’s why the Mormon Church can take such liberal positions on abortion and contraception after opposing them for years.
BartBurk,
I think you’re mistaken about abortion since I think both churches’ positions are the same. Against abortion, period.

As to contraception, since my wife used contraception after our eighth child, and since she has recently mentioned that she wished she had had more children, I suppose that some mothers or women who have used contraception have regretted it, but the question is “whose agency is involved, and does God condemn us for using our agency as best we can determine at the time we make a decision?” The LDS church still teaches families to have a “quiver” full of children, and to not delay marriage nor having children once married. But it also very strong on teaching self-accountability and using one’s own personal choice in personal and family matters. That is how we grow. Sometimes, we make decisions we regret. We learn from them. God wants us to do that–learn from our mistakes.
 
BartBurk,
I think you’re mistaken about abortion since I think both churches’ positions are the same. Against abortion, period.

As to contraception, since my wife used contraception after our eighth child, and since she has recently mentioned that she wished she had had more children, I suppose that some mothers or women who have used contraception have regretted it, but the question is “whose agency is involved, and does God condemn us for using our agency as best we can determine at the time we make a decision?” The LDS church still teaches families to have a “quiver” full of children, and to not delay marriage nor having children once married. But it also very strong on teaching self-accountability and using one’s own personal choice in personal and family matters. That is how we grow. Sometimes, we make decisions we regret. We learn from them. God wants us to do that–learn from our mistakes.
Read this link with all the details about the liberal LDS position on abortion:

religioustolerance.org/lds_abor.htm
 
I don’t take “this doctrine from the revelations of Joseph Smith.” I take this doctrine from personal revelation that I know to be true. I have no question about it. That is our point. God will reveal His doctrine to each and every person who asks in faith, nothing doubting, if they are willing to live by the doctrine. (He would not reveal doctrine to condemn us, only to lift us and bring us happiness and joy.)
What authority do you have to declare doctrine?
 
Read this link with all the details about the liberal LDS position on abortion:

religioustolerance.org/lds_abor.htm
BartBurk,
Thanks for the link. I have no problem with the following summary quote from it:

“The official stance of the LDS Church reflects a relatively liberal position within the pro-life movement. It allows abortion if the woman’s life or health is threatened, if the pregnancy was the result of rape or incest or if the fetus is severely malformed and would not live long after birth.”

Remember, as I said before, we believe very strongly in personal revelation. A prospective mother in one of the circumstances described above, can pray and seek counsel and identify within her own heart, what is best for herself and her continued happiness and well-being. It would be a very difficult decision in any case, but for any leadership of any church to infringe on the right of a mother to be protective of her own health, is difficult for me to swallow as being an inspired doctrine. God wants our happiness and good health, not guilt feelings for the rest of our lives.
 
PaulDupre,
If I have understood correctly, there was a fairly recent change in what is considered the status of infant children who died without baptism in the Catholic church–no longer are they condemned, correct?

What changed?

I have no problem with your having accomodated your beliefs with the statement that “nothing more is needed”, but I think it is self-deception. You can certainly choose that if you wish. You can also be offended by my pointing it out.

The ultimate questions are “is the doctrine pure?” “Is the claim of revelation or new teaching or a change in policy pure and absolutely revealed by God?” There wouldn’t be so much dissension within the Catholic church if these were not valid issues. I see it in the papers and on the internet all the time.
Nothing has changed. The whole issue about the status of unbaptised infants was always unknown since scripture was silent on it. SPECULATION gave rise to the thought that since “nothing defiled” can enter heaven and “unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit he cannot enter heaven” then infants could not enter heaven. But this speculation was NEVER doctrine (which can never change).

A church decision to abolish limbo has long been expected. Benedict and his predecessor, the late Pope John Paul II, expressed misgivings about the concept. Benedict, when he was still Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and the church’s top enforcer of dogma, said he viewed limbo as a mere “theological hypothesis.”** Never part of formal doctrine because it does not appear in Scripture**, limbo was removed from the Catholic catechism 15 years ago. Los Angeles Times

Just thought you would want to know the truth of the matter.
 
What authority do you have to declare doctrine?
I’ll answer with a quote from Numbers in the Old Testament:

24 ¶ And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the Lord, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.
25 And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!
 
i would like to Apologize to all Mormons on this sight. I get a little Zealous often. I am sorry if i have offended any of you. I have done some Research. here is just some of what i have learned lets discuss them:
Code:
 Mormonism began in 1820 when a teen-aged boy in western New York named Joseph Smith was spurred by a Christian revival where he lived to pray to God for guidance as to which church was true. In answer to his prayers he was visited by God the Father and God the Son, two separate beings, who told him to join no church because all the churches at that time were false, and that he, Joseph, would bring forth the true church. This event is called "The First Vision."In 1823 Joseph had another heavenly visitation, in which an angel named Moroni told him of a sacred history written by ancient Hebrews in America, engraved in an Egyptian dialect on tablets of gold and buried in a nearby hill. Joseph was told it was the history of the ancient peoples of America, and that Joseph would be the instrument for bringing this record to the knowledge of the world. Joseph obtained these gold plates from the angel in 1827, and translated them into English by the spirit of God and the use of a sacred instrument accompanying the plates called the "Urim and Thummim." The translation was published in 1830 as The Book of Mormon, now revered by Mormons as scripture, along with the Bible.The Book of Mormon is a religious and secular history of the inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere from about 2200 BC to about 421 AD. It tells the reader that three groups of immigrants settled the uninhabited Americas. They were led by God from their original homes in the Near East to America. The first group came from the Tower of     l, about 2200 BC, and two other groups came from Jerusalem just before the Babylonian Captivity, about 600 BC. They had prophets of God who had been inspired with the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is thus preserved in their history, the Book of Mormon. Many of the descendants of these immigrants were Christians, even before Christ was born in Palestine, but many were unbelievers. Believers and unbelievers fought many wars, the last of which left only degenerate unbelievers as survivors, who are the ancestors of the American Indians. The most important event during this long history was the visit of Jesus Christ to America, after his crucifixion, when he ministered to (and converted) all the inhabitants.
Just One little thing before I get into the really Break down. Urim and Thummim were not Mormon things, but Jewish. The Urim and Thummim were used when any hebrew, “Cast lots” it was bascily the curses and blessing of the Jewish people. When some one in the Jewish nation Cast Lots, they called the priest who brought the Ephod which was the Priest’s breast Plate. Which had the 12 stones and such. on the Inside of the plate was the Urim and Thummim or the cards that had the Blessing and Curses. The priest then would ask the participants what the question was, Normally you could only ask Yes or No questions. the priest would then take the cards and with full trust in God, shuffle them and deal them out. IF there were more Blessing then Curses, it was yes, if there were More curses then Blessing, it was no. To further the yes no process, there were two red gem stones on the shoulders of the Breast plate. one on the Blessing side one on the Curse side, the red gem would light up as a ray of light hit it corresponding to the cards. if they Contradicted that meant the priest was in sin, and had to make a sacrifice and do it again. More often then not, they matched. That is the Urim and Thummim, Mormonism straight out stole from the Jewish people these items, Again, ra.pe and pillage of the word of God.
 
First Breakdown and battery of the Mormons, Here is my Source packham.n4m.org/tract.htm (yes it is Copied, I dont have time to write it all out in my own words. I have read it all though and according to all i have been taught, Being protestant for 23 years of my life, and becoming catholic on April 12th, this all is just showing what liars the Mormons are.)
Code:
 The "First Vision" story in the form presented to you was unknown until 1838, eighteen years after its alleged occurrence and almost ten years after Smith had begun his missionary efforts. The oldest (but quite different) version of the vision is in Smith's own handwriting, dating from about 1832 (still at least eleven years afterwards), and says that only one personage, Jesus Christ, appeared to him. It also mentions nothing about a revival. It also contradicts the later account as to whether Smith had already decided that no church was true. Still a third version of this event is recorded as a recollection in Smith's diary, fifteen years after the alleged vision, where one unidentified "personage" appeared, then another, with a message implying that neither was the Son. They were accompanied by many "angels," which are not mentioned in the official version you have been told about. Which version is correct, if any? Why was this event, now said by the church to be so important, unknown for so long?  Careful study of the religious history of the locale where Smith lived in 1820 casts doubt on whether there actually was such an extensive revival that year as Smith and his family later described as associated with the "First Vision." The revivals in 1817 and 1824 better fit what Smith described later. In 1828, eight years after he supposedly had been told by God himself to join no church, Smith applied for membership in a local Methodist church. Other members of his family had joined the Presbyterians. Contemporaries of Smith consistently described him as something of a confidence man, whose chief source of income was hiring out to local farmers to help them find buried treasure by the use of folk magic and "seer stones." Smith was actually tried in 1826 on a charge of moneydigging.  NOTES It is interesting that none of his critics seemed to be aware of his claim to have been visited by God in 1820, even though in his 1838 account he claimed that he had suffered "great persecution" for telling people of his vision. The only persons who claimed to have actually seen the gold plates were eleven close friends of Smith (many of them related to each other). Their testimonies are printed in the front of every copy of the Book of Mormon. No disinterested third party was ever allowed to examine them. They were retrieved by the angel at some unrecorded point. Most of the witnesses later abandoned Smith and left his movement. Smith then called them "liars." Smith produced most of the "translation" not by reading the plates through the Urim and Thummim (described as a pair of sacred spectacles), but by gazing at the same "seer stone" he had used for treasure hunting. He would place the stone into his hat, and then cover his face with it. For much of the time he was dictating, the gold plates were not even present, but in a hiding place. The detailed history and civilization described in the Book of Mormon does not correspond to anything found by archaeologists anywhere in the Americas. The Book of Mormon describes a civilization lasting for a thousand years, covering both North and South America, which was familiar with horses, elephants, cattle, sheep, wheat, barley, steel, wheeled vehicles, shipbuilding, sails, coins, and other elements of Old World culture. But no trace of any of these supposedly very common things has ever been found in the Americas of that period. Nor does the Book of Mormon mention many of the features of the civilizations which really did exist at that time in the Americas. The LDS church has spent millions of dollars over many years trying to prove through archaeological research that the Book of Mormon is an accurate historical record, but they have failed to produce any convincing pre-columbian archeological evidence supporting the Book of Mormon story. In addition, whereas the Book of Mormon presents the picture of a relatively homogeneous people, with a single language and communication between distant parts of the Americas, the pre-columbian history of the Americas shows the opposite: widely disparate racial types (almost entirely east Asian - definitely not Semitic, as proven by recent DNA studies), and many unrelated native languages, none of which are even remotely related to Hebrew or Egyptian.
There will be more to come, Mormons if you dont believe any of this, Go talk to your elders and have them explain all this away.
 
I’ll answer with a quote from Numbers in the Old Testament:

24 ¶ And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the Lord, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.
25 And the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!
So does that mean that you have the authority to bind all people to accept the doctrine you receive and declare by personal revelation?
 
Dchsknight,
I only bother a brief response to let you know that the Packham’s whom you cited are apostates from the LDS church. You might as well cite any of the Protestant denominations writings about the Catholic church, or Luther’s writings, or Calvin’s. The views of someone who has left the fold are going to be biased by that fact. I would not trust any such person as to telling unbiased information about the church they left.
 
So does that mean that you have the authority to bind all people to accept the doctrine you receive and declare by personal revelation?
Of course not. I said I did not need to rely on Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon for that doctrine, because I know the doctrine for myself. I don’t know it for you or for anyone else, but for myself (and if my children asked about it, I could testify of it to them).

That is what personal revelation is all about. You folks have said you have personal revelation that guides your life. Well, then why are you asking me about this?
 
Dchsknight,
I only bother a brief response to let you know that the Packham’s whom you cited are apostates from the LDS church. You might as well cite any of the Protestant denominations writings about the Catholic church, or Luther’s writings, or Calvin’s. The views of someone who has left the fold are going to be biased by that fact. I would not trust any such person as to telling unbiased information about the church they left.
NO, parkD you have been challenged, In some other older ways of life, a person who leaves a Challenge unanswered is a Coward. Answer with really conversation to these claims, answer them with your BOM. Or run the risk of Cowardice.
 
If they weren’t “daughters of Ishmael” why did they find them in the land of Ishmael’s mother Haggar: Egypt?

The dates, especially the dates before Christ, are extremely important.

I still have yet to see any explanation as to the use of Common Greek words like “Christ”, “Apostles”, and so forth when these “Jews” supposedly left Israel prior to the conquest of Alexander and the spread of Hellenism and the Greek language.

I still have yet to see an explanation of how Jesus’ name could be known to these “Jews” before it was announced to Mary by the angel or before His ministry in Israel.

I still have yet to see evidence that native americans spoke Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic or any derivative of these languages since they would have to be the descendents of, or would at least have definitely come in contact with, these “Jews”.

I have yet to see an explanation as to why any Jew would voluntarily leave the land in which the Lord promised them through Abraham to be their land forever. Israel was their promised land. The center of all Jewish life was the Temple in Jerusalem.

It’s easy to claim that the bible backs up the BOM when the author goes and rips phrases out of a bible that he already posessed and inserts them into a story derived from his own imagination. Market this book to those who lack a firm knowledge of ancient history and the BOM would be a great tool to convert the ignorant. There are a lot of historical facts that must be ignored in order to accept the BOM as true.

How do you explain these?

(One of my favorite little tidbits from the BOM is how one of the fall-away tribes of “Jews”-I forgot who they were and I don’t have the book in front of me-received the “penalty of blackness in their skin…” I guess Mr. Smith had to explain the existence of african-americans living here somehow.😉 )
 
ParkD i would also welcome any quote or Citation from Luther, Calvin and the lot, because we as catholics can explain why they were wrong, from the bible, Answer from your BOM my challenges.
 
OK, DarkNight (easier to remember–I don’t know what your moniker means),

I’ll have to answer in stages, one concept at a time.

Put yourself in Joseph Smith’s shoes. At fourteen, you pray vocally in a grove of trees near your home, and God the Father and His Son appear to you to declare an answer to your prayer, which you asked because you had recently read in James in the Bible that you should ask in faith, nothing wavering, if you lack the wisdom you desire.

One might think you would begin to tell people about this, and you do, only to find that not only will people not listen but they think you hallucinated the experience or have ulterior motives. They talk behind your back. They condemn your family.

You write about your experience from time to time, not in the same words but describing the same experience. (When we tell of an experience, do we say exactly the same thing each time–no.) You may have different purposes for different audiences, and will describe the experience in a way that gives your audience a glimpse of the experience as far as what you think they want to know or need to know, but not the same way every time.
 
OK, DarkNight (easier to remember–I don’t know what your moniker means),

I’ll have to answer in stages, one concept at a time.

Put yourself in Joseph Smith’s shoes. At fourteen, you pray vocally in a grove of trees near your home, and God the Father and His Son appear to you to declare an answer to your prayer, which you asked because you had recently read in James in the Bible that you should ask in faith, nothing wavering, if you lack the wisdom you desire.

One might think you would begin to tell people about this, and you do, only to find that not only will people not listen but they think you hallucinated the experience or have ulterior motives. They talk behind your back. They condemn your family.

You write about your experience from time to time, not in the same words but describing the same experience. (When we tell of an experience, do we say exactly the same thing each time–no.) You may have different purposes for different audiences, and will describe the experience in a way that gives your audience a glimpse of the experience as far as what you think they want to know or need to know, but not the same way every time.
Ok, First off, my Name means Desert Christian High School,( my High School) Knight( The Mascot) I kind of Like Dark Knight, but if you want to compare, Compare me to the Black Knight. Or Robin Hood, Or Willam Wallace, or Aurther Himself.

Second, Why would you hide something if, it was from God. Like the Pharisee Gamaliel said, If it is From God, it will Stand forever, if it is of men it will fall. Next, Why does JS have different Accounts, about the Vision. In a court of Law if the Witness gives conflicting Views he is throw out and charged on Perjury. God’s word Never changed. His words, The bible, which was complied by the Church and Inspired in the Compilation and Inspired by God and written by the men who Personally knew God and Jesus, Has never once Changed. It has Survived for over 2000 years, starting on material that is perishable till now with the printing press and internet. You have no scripture, it was taken by angels to heaven. Jesus Said I would never leave you nor forsake you, why would he take his word from you if he said he would never leave you nor forsake, Because John 1:1 …And the Word was God… IF that is the case, then Jesus is the word, and that means that the word would never leave, If that is the case then Jesus is a liar and none of us should follow, mormonism, catholicism, Christianity or anything like it.
 
OK, DarkNight (easier to remember–I don’t know what your moniker means),

I’ll have to answer in stages, one concept at a time.

Put yourself in Joseph Smith’s shoes. At fourteen, you pray vocally in a grove of trees near your home, and God the Father and His Son appear to you to declare an answer to your prayer, which you asked because you had recently read in James in the Bible that you should ask in faith, nothing wavering, if you lack the wisdom you desire.

One might think you would begin to tell people about this, and you do, only to find that not only will people not listen but they think you hallucinated the experience or have ulterior motives. They talk behind your back. They condemn your family.

You write about your experience from time to time, not in the same words but describing the same experience. (When we tell of an experience, do we say exactly the same thing each time–no.) You may have different purposes for different audiences, and will describe the experience in a way that gives your audience a glimpse of the experience as far as what you think they want to know or need to know, but not the same way every time.
Also JS can not be right or Accurate, because of his description of God. Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the one who sent me, That means that God and Jesus, Same person.

when the Pharisees asked Jesus, who he was if he was the messiah the son of the Blessed one, He answered “I AM…” Not i am he, or Yeah that is me, “I AM…” which is exactly how God Identified himself to the Jews in the OT, that is why The HP tore his clothes when he heard this, To him this was Blaphsmey. God and Jesus are the same person.
 
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