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Flame4
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What does it mean when we say “He (the Holy Spirit) proceeds from the Father and the Son” in the Nicene Creed?
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Elizabeth_H
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I am still taking baby steps, so please, please someone correct me if I am wrong here:
I understand this to state that the Holy Spirit proceeds (is sent from) Jesus Christ (The Son) through the Father. As a single example (forgive me for only mentioning one, as I said I am still learning and this is the only example that I know by heart) in John 14:15-26, when He promises us the Holy Spirit, through the Father.
Jesus states in John 14:26: “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
We state all together because Our God is the Triune God: Not three gods, but One God, and all three Persons are equal.
Therefore, as part of the Nicene Creed, we state that we believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spake by the Prophets.
I hope that helps, and again, if I am incorrect in anything I have said, I apologise and sincerely ask for correction.
God bless,
Elizabeth
I understand this to state that the Holy Spirit proceeds (is sent from) Jesus Christ (The Son) through the Father. As a single example (forgive me for only mentioning one, as I said I am still learning and this is the only example that I know by heart) in John 14:15-26, when He promises us the Holy Spirit, through the Father.
Jesus states in John 14:26: “But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
We state all together because Our God is the Triune God: Not three gods, but One God, and all three Persons are equal.
Therefore, as part of the Nicene Creed, we state that we believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spake by the Prophets.
I hope that helps, and again, if I am incorrect in anything I have said, I apologise and sincerely ask for correction.
God bless,
Elizabeth
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tee_eff_em
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Flame4
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Benadam
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Usually a person who is sent in the authority of another is one who is lower in rank or social status than the person who sent them. The word ‘proceed’ was the best word to describe the Holy Spirit’s being sent in the authority of the Son without implicating inequality.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
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The Holy Spirit is the infinite love between The Father and the Son.
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otjm
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The filioque (and the Son) was part of the causation of the split between the Eastern and Western (Roman) Church in 1054. The East said that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son.
When I attend a Byzantine rite Holy Mysteries, they say the Creed slightly differently; even though they are in union with Rome, it appears that the issue may not be entirely settled (as it would seem to be with the Council mentioned above).
When I attend a Byzantine rite Holy Mysteries, they say the Creed slightly differently; even though they are in union with Rome, it appears that the issue may not be entirely settled (as it would seem to be with the Council mentioned above).
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Claire_from_DE
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Since I’m Catholic, I go with what the Church says. But actually, here we are trying to explain the unexplainable and the truth is so far beyond words that it’s a shame this became an issue in the first place. Trying to write down the relationship among the eternal, infinite persons of the Trinity, who is the One God, is describing the indescribable. The fact that some of the Eastern Catholic churches say the same creed as the Orthodox churches means that the two descriptions are not incompatible. Just my opinion.
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CallistusPM
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CallistusPM
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The Eastern Orthodox would disagree. It was the “Filioque” in the Creed which caused them to split with Rome in the 11th century.
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BobinRaymoreMO
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I am Roman Catholic but consider myself an orthodox papist if that makes any sense and agree with an earlier post that says the divine is difficult to put into words. But this is another example of the arrogance of Rome to be brutally honest. The Nicene Creed was agreed upon when we united with our Orthodox brethren at a Conference and then unilaterally changed by Rome without a Conference. I am not sure theologically which side is correct but know that is not the way to do things. BTW the US Catholic Bishops recommend saying the Creed in its original form and that is what I do.
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tee_eff_em
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BobinRaymoreMO
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I did a quick search and could not find this but I remember reading somewhere that saying the Creed in the Constantinople form as a sign of unity with the Orthodox is OK. I will continue searching.
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PJM
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Welcome Home
While your sharing th truth, it fails to adres he OPQ.
This is he issue that “precipited” The Great Schism of the Eastern Church’s [so it is claimed. I suspect personal politics had a GREAT deal more to do with it.]
The Catholic Dictionary has this explaination: TRINITY, THE HOLY
“A term used since A.D. 200 to denote the central doctrine of the Christian religion. God, who is one and unique in his infinite substance or nature, is three really distinct persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The one and only God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Yet God the Father is not God the Son, by generates the Son eternally, as the Son is eternally begotten. The Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but a distinct person having the divine nature from the Father and the Son by eternal procession. The three divine persons are co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial and deserve co-equal glory and adoration.”
The dogma of the Trinity Catholic Encypodeia
"The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.
Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: “the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.” In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God’s nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system."
The Catholic Understanding of “proceeds from” concludes that Because God is Love; that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Love of the Father for the Son, From the Love of the Son for the Father; and the Love of BOTH the Father and the Son for the Holy Spirit, makes the Holy Spirit Present; specifying that they ar ALL Co-EQUAL and Co-Eternal.
It is but a manner to make clear, wht can never be made clear.
Love and prayers,
Pat
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Ferde_Rombola
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That’s exactly right. It is impossible for us to explain the Trinity and the relationship between the three Persons. I mentioned that to an Orthodox priest in an on-line conversation. In addition, I asked him, since the Father and the Lord are one, how it’s possible for the Spirit to proced from one and not the other. That was three years ago. I’m still waiting for his answer.
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JMJ_coder
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Here is the latest official Church document on the Filioque: The Father as the Source of the Whole Trinity
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Ferde_Rombola
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I don’t think a document from a committee working on ecumenical relations can be considered an “official” Church document.
As I read it, it was written in 1981. The differences remain.
In its discussion, it purports to explain the relationship(s) between the three Persons of the Trinity, which was ruled out about 1500 years ago. Nice try, though. I hope they can come to an understanding that the Catholic Church is the true ancient Church and we can be friends again.
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JimG
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My understanding is this: The Son (the Word) is seen as a perfect expression of the divine intellect. God knows himself perfectly and in expressing that “idea” generates the Word, which is lacking in nothing that the Father possesses.
The Spirit is seen as a perfect expression of love exercised by the divine will. The love between Father and Son is so perfectly expressed and lacking in nothing, that it is the third Person of the Trinity.
Father knows himself, generating the Son.
Father and Son love each other, generating the Spirit.
That does not mean that the Father is not the ontological Source. Nor does it mean that the Son and Spirit are not co-equal with the Father, since the generation is not a matter of cause and effect, but of the “natural” expression of the divine nature itself. It occurs–and that is not the proper word–from all eternity and does not occupy any time.
The Spirit is seen as a perfect expression of love exercised by the divine will. The love between Father and Son is so perfectly expressed and lacking in nothing, that it is the third Person of the Trinity.
Father knows himself, generating the Son.
Father and Son love each other, generating the Spirit.
That does not mean that the Father is not the ontological Source. Nor does it mean that the Son and Spirit are not co-equal with the Father, since the generation is not a matter of cause and effect, but of the “natural” expression of the divine nature itself. It occurs–and that is not the proper word–from all eternity and does not occupy any time.
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Ferde_Rombola
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That’s pretty close to my recollection of what the ECFs concluded (after a few centuries of study and deliberation). The Father is the creator, the Son is the Word of God and the Spirit is the wisdom of God. But even that is in the abstract. I don’t argue a position here but I do know what the Scripture contains. If the Lord breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’ it seems then the Spirit ‘proceeds’ from Him. In another place He says the Father will send the Spirit so Scripture is, if not inconsistent, at least inconclusive.
As I said to the Orthodox priest, the Orthodox can say they disagree with the Catholic Church about this, but they can’t say we’re wrong. What they should say is, it’s not enough to separate us.
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crazzeto
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This can be seen in the bible too,
Douay (english literal translation of the vulgate)
Douay (english literal translation of the vulgate)
RSV:
1611 KJV:
NAB
I know, seems like over kill quoteing so many bibles but you never know when someone is going to try pulling out a “that’s not what my bible says”.
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