Prodigal's Isle

[michaelsmth626]

Please define for me and Socrates what determines a “mature Christian” How do we recognize such a one?

Peace
James

It would be nice to to share more with you expectantly Socrates but we can’t give up the bottle. As soon as the cici is taken from your mouth you scream unceasingly. This whole Paul is in charge of the kingdom of earth is nothing but baby talk.

1 cor 3-1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? Baby’s on the bottle

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

1 cor 2-6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written:

  “ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
  Nor have entered into the heart of man
  The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”[c]

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

 

[JRKH]

Biblical texts? None. Do you think there was something written that God intended be included, but was not?

Did I say Biblical Texts? No I did not. Although I will admit that I could have been more specific and specified “Christian” texts, or texts claiming “Apostolic origin.”

Of the many texts that WERE written and passed around (I’ve heard estimates of 200 hundred), by the time of the canon was established, How do you know the answer to your own question? How do you know that the proper books were included?

Peace
James

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

There is no command for writing of book from Christ in the NT that I am aware of. Can you show me one? Witnesses, in the ancient times almost always involved Oral testimony, not written. …

Are you saying that writing the gospels was contrary to Christ’s will?

 

[Pax]

michaelsmth in Christ,

Let’s talk about mediation and Jesus the “one mediator.” Jesus is the one mediator between God and man in that only Jesus passion, death, and resurrection provides atonement, expiation for sin, and the redemption of mankind. No one else’s blood can do this, and Jesus is the only means of salvation. That is the meaning of “one mediator” and it in no way precludes subordinate mediation.

Scripture attests to this is many ways.

Paul says the following: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way” (1 Tim. 2:1–2).

Supplications, prayers, and intercessions are acts of mediation…

Jesus gave the apostles roles of mediation. Jesus told them to evangelize and baptize all nations (Matt. 28:18–20), and he gave them the power to forgive sins (John 20:23) Paul also tells something about his appointment as an apostle by Jesus when he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth” [1 Tim. 2:7].

The mediation of the apostles and those that followed are subordinate to and completely dependent upon the work of Jesus Christ our one mediator. We know this from Jesus own statement concerning the vine and the branches. This also comes through in scripture when we see the Church referred to as the body of Christ and how each member strengthens the body. I could go on, but this should be sufficient to make the point.

God bless.

 

[michaelsmth626]

But there is something i don’t understand. Are you saying that binding and loosing is a matter of asking or acting?

Nether its a matter of being in Christ and the HS.
**If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, **
Now you tell me is that passage in John 15 you posted this reply in addressing everything including the keys?
you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
… How long was the Gospel preached before the Canon of the Bible was officially determined. …

Not necessary to look up quotes for me.
Also this is not an answer to the question I asked you to consider.
How many years, how many generations, was the faith passed on before the Bible canon you hold in your hand was compiled?
Who protected, preached and passed on that faith?
What group did the people belong to who met at Carthage and Hippo and selected teh canon of the Bible you now hold?

I did not ask you to consider these points in order that they be seperated and answwered in isolation but that you take account of the fact that The Bible, That gift of God, cam by way of The Church established by Christ and not the other way around.

I find I am getting testy here so I will sign off for awhile.

Goodnight

Peace
James

 

[Pax]

Well, the argument that i found so convincing was that Christ was speaking to Peter alone in Matthew 16:19. Since He was speaking only to Peter, the reasoning went, Peter alone had the authority to bind and loose.

Now Pax points out that in Matthew 18 Jesus says the rest of the Apostles were also given the power to bind and loose. So how can it be that

a. Only Peter has the authority to bind and loose

and

b. All of the Apostles have the authority to bind and loose

are both true? Since (b) is the opposite of (a) both cannot be true, reason tells me.

Soc in Christ,

I believe that both are true and that they are complimentary rather than contradictory. The Prime minister has authority and so do other ministers within the kingdom. The Prime Minister, however, is given the keys by Jesus. Jesus did not extend the keys to the other apostles.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
Please define for me and Socrates what determines a “mature Christian” How do we recognize such a one?

Is there anything in your response here that should be taken as an answer to the question posed?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Did I say Biblical Texts? No I did not. Although I will admit that I could have been more specific and specified “Christian” texts, or texts claiming “Apostolic origin.”

Of the many texts that WERE written and passed around (I’ve heard estimates of 200 hundred), by the time of the canon was established, How do you know the answer to your own question? How do you know that the proper books were included?

Peace
James

Well, i’ve never found a contradiction between any two books, so something must be right in the choice! That being said, some choices are obvious (we are talking New Testament here, i assume). Matthew, Peter and John were obviously Apostles, as was Paul, so anything written by these men should be included. Mark’s and Luke’s gospels do not contradict Matthew’s in any significant way, so there is no reason to not include them. Acts is a record of the Apostles after Christ’s resurrection, so it has much value and should be included, especially since many scholars consider the author Luke to be one of the most accurate of all ancient historians.

That leaves the books of Hebrews, James and Jude. It’s questionable who the author of Hebrews is, so if you want to tear those pages out of your bible, what can i say to stop you? Jude and James are believed to be brothers (or cousins?) of Jesus. Not really Apostles, so if you want to tear those pages out, go ahead! But as i said, they do not contradict the more obvious choices.

Now, i’m no scholar, but even ignorant i can see why those authors were chosen. What about you?

 

[michaelsmth626]

michaelsmth in Christ,

Let’s talk about mediation and Jesus the “one mediator.” Jesus is the one mediator between God and man in that only Jesus passion, death, and resurrection provides atonement, expiation for sin, and the redemption of mankind. No one else’s blood can do this, and Jesus is the only means of salvation. That is the meaning of “one mediator” and it in no way precludes subordinate mediation.

Scripture attests to this is many ways.

Paul says the following: “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way” (1 Tim. 2:1–2).

Supplications, prayers, and intercessions are acts of mediation…

Jesus gave the apostles roles of mediation. Jesus told them to evangelize and baptize all nations (Matt. 28:18–20), and he gave them the power to forgive sins (John 20:23) Paul also tells something about his appointment as an apostle by Jesus when he says, “For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth” [1 Tim. 2:7].

The mediation of the apostles and those that followed are subordinate to and completely dependent upon the work of Jesus Christ our one mediator. We know this from Jesus own statement concerning the vine and the branches. This also comes through in scripture when we see the Church referred to as the body of Christ and how each member strengthens the body. I could go on, but this should be sufficient to make the point.

God bless.

Then why do you belong to a church that professes to be the sole mediator to all men on earth.

In this Church of Christ the Roman Pontiff, as the successor of Peter, to whom Christ entrusted the care of his sheep and his lambs, **has been granted by God supreme, full, immediate and universal power in the care of souls. He is endowed with the primacy of power over all the churches **(Vatican Council II, Volume 1, The Conciliar and the Post Conciliar Documents, Austin Flannery, O.P.).

The older statements say straight out their is no salvation outside the pontiff. That sounds like a single door that only Jesus holds the keys to.

Soc in Christ,

I believe that both are true and that they are complimentary rather than contradictory. The Prime minister has authority and so do other ministers within the kingdom. The Prime Minister, however, is given the keys by Jesus. Jesus did not extend the keys to the other apostles.

I sure looks like you have blocked access to Christ just as the old priest did and Jesus threw the book at them for it Mathew 23 the first woh

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Soc in Christ,

I believe that both are true and that they are complimentary rather than contradictory. The Prime minister has authority and so do other ministers within the kingdom. The Prime Minister, however, is given the keys by Jesus. Jesus did not extend the keys to the other apostles.

Then i think you believe that Peter’s authority is not the same as the other Apostles. As i said, it’s like comparing apples and oranges. There is no contradiction there. True?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Pax:

But i’m wondering, what are the keys if not the authority to bind and loose?



“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

(Matthew 16:19)

 

[michaelsmth626]

Well, i’ve never found a contradiction between any two books, so something must be right in the choice! That being said, some choices are obvious (we are talking New Testament here, i assume). Matthew, Peter and John were obviously Apostles, as was Paul, so anything written by these men should be included. Mark’s and Luke’s gospels do not contradict Matthew’s in any significant way, so there is no reason to not include them. Acts is a record of the Apostles after Christ’s resurrection, so it has much value and should be included, especially since many scholars consider the author Luke to be one of the most accurate of all ancient historians.

That leaves the books of Hebrews, James and Jude. It’s questionable who the author of Hebrews is, so if you want to tear those pages out of your bible, what can i say to stop you? Jude and James are believed to be brothers (or cousins?) of Jesus. Not really Apostles, so if you want to tear those pages out, go ahead! But as i said, they do not contradict the more obvious choices.

Now, i’m no scholar, but even ignorant i can see why those authors were chosen. What about you?

That’s a wonderful sign of a truly spirit filled member of Christ, lest play discredit the word of God to prove my point

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

That’s a wonderful sign of a truly spirit filled member of Christ, lest play discredit the word of God to prove my point

Thanks, but i wasn’t intentionally trying to prove your point. I’m really just trying to prove to myself what is true. I have an odd way of competing. Rather than try to win some kind of argument, i’m trying to lose my ignorance. I guess i’m just a loser!

 

[michaelsmth626]

Thanks, but i wasn’t intentionally trying to prove your point. I’m really just trying to prove to myself what is true. I have an odd way of competing. Rather than try to win some kind of argument, i’m trying to lose my ignorance. I guess i’m just a loser!

My reply was not so much directed twords you as it was JRKH presentation of the notion.
Accepting tradition that could be from any source as doctrine is what created the catholic doctrine as it is seen today. If you haven’t noticed that my constant reference to scripture continues to firmly place Christ in the drivers seat. And Paul’s reference the maturity and babes in Christ is rooted in the notion that one Apostle is greater than another. To which JRKH aked for a definition and never bothered to reply to. forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5695915&postcount=1001

By the way Jesus loves lossers.

 

[pneuma07]

Don’t the sheep know the Shepherds voice? they will not follow another. You speak as a blind and death man. The Spirit of God is at work all around for those that have eyes and ears. Why do think Jesus said it the gates of hell will never overturn it. Its because We are the temple of God the Spirit resides in the temple. You can’t find or know the truth unless the source has the stamp of Rome on it? If you quit looking for the ECF stamp of approval and start listening to the Spirit within you, you may be quite surprised. I did not say I could see them but as we speak the Spirit within us confirms that we are Born of the same.

Michael,

So you acknowledge whether a brother of yours is Spirit filled and member of the undetectable church as he speaks. Do the members happen to have similar views as yours ?

You have already detected I speak as a blind and death man, so I get this proves your ability.

I see you do not need the ECFs or others to correctly interpret Scripture.
I guess you do not need to study the cultural jewish context, in order to know what binding and loosing and the keys could be understood about.

Bless you.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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