Prof. Making inappropriate comments

[PaulinVA]

Ack! I’ve been fisked!

James, I understand what you are saying, but, realistically, in a public institution, you can not demand that a professor respect your position.

I would be interested to know how one would go about arguing with someone that Paul was not hallucinating, and did indeed get knocked down by God and was told to stop persecuting Christians. That’s a faith matter, isn’t it?

 

[flyingfish]

Really? Should she make sure her mind mimics her prof’s mind so that she can get a recommendation? Because that’s the only thing that a prof would respect, someone agreeing with everything he said?

…

What if he stated he thought Homer lived in 1200 BC, and she thought he lived in 800 BC. Should she shut up and let him go on? No, she’d gather her thoughts and proof and debate him about it. What if he said 2+2 = 5? Bow down to that, too? Nope - she should do what she needs to do to argue her case, with respect, of course.

I bet she’d wind up with a much better recommendation, too.

It profits a man nothing to gain the whole world if He lose His soul… but for a “recommendation”?

I agree that in any discussion she needs to be prepared, informed, cordial, and appropriate, but God tell us not to shy away from such encounters and to rejoice when others revile us for our beliefs.

Of course none of us can make the decision for her, all we can do is offer advice from the safety and anonimoty of our our computers.

Peace
James

The thing is you guys are assuming that if she confronts him about it that it will change things.

Do you really think this man is so stupid that he doesn’t realize that saying that St. Paul’s visions were hallucinations would bother Christians? It’s probably the very reason he said it.

Do you think that if she tells him “no, his visions were from God, and what you said may have offended Christian students” that he will say “oh yes, how could I have been so stupid as not to see this, I will never say this again”?!

I can see from the perspective of a Catholic that it would make sense to confront him if it meant he would stop saying that St. Paul hallucinated, and someone in the audience would not hear it, and their faith would be saved from doubt.

But it’s completely crazy to think that a professional academic who’s been lecturing for a while is going to change the types of things he says because some kid who’s TA’ing for him objects. He won’t care, and depending on the kind of guy he is, and how the OP talks to him, his opinion of her might drop and when the time comes for her to ask for a reference he might not give a good one.

There is nothing she can say that will make him stop lecturing as he pleases.

It’s an enterprise that has no potential benefit and many potential risks.

 

[White_Tree]

I’m going to have to side with flyingfish on this one. You should not confront your professor on this. Flyingfish has gone over some of the consequences of confronting him, and there could be others as well, depending upon your situation.

Moreover, Jesus told us to spread the good news, but he also told us to “be wise as serpents and peaceful as doves.” Contrary to what one of the other posters have said, you are not forfeiting your soul by refusing to confront him. Even Jesus remained silent when Pontius Pilate asked Him, “What is Truth?”

Furthermore, in academia and in the world, you are going to come across many people who are hostile to your beliefs. You cannot do battle with all of them, nor should you. It would be far better to learn how to listen to what they have to say without letting it bother you. As one great teacher put it, “We must learn to receive with gladness the unpleasant manifestations of our fellow men.”

My main piece of advice to you in this situation is to look into your mind and heart and find out why your professor’s words bothered you. They are just words, sounds, coming out of a man who is no greater or lesser than yourself. Maybe there is some truth behind them, in which case you can learn something from those words. And maybe not, in which case you can ignore them. But I wouldn’t let them bother you. They are just someone’s opinions.

 

[kage_ar]

Repeating what a professional college instructor who has been in the academic world for a long time told me… professors, especially those with tenure, are accountable to no one. They revel in their own opinions and if they want to bash Catholics, that is aokay in that world.

Believe it or not, one can get an education AND a degree from a Catholic school And not have to pay thousands of dollars to hear anti-Catholic garbage

 

[JRKH]

The thing is you guys are assuming that if she confronts him about it that it will change things.

Do you really think this man is so stupid that he doesn’t realize that saying that St. Paul’s visions were hallucinations would bother Christians? It’s probably the very reason he said it.

Do you think that if she tells him “no, his visions were from God, and what you said may have offended Christian students” that he will say “oh yes, how could I have been so stupid as not to see this, I will never say this again”?!

What you say above is a perfectly valid argument - if we had were on a level playing field, but it seems we are not. If this some professor, in a similar situation made derogatory comments about prcticing homosexuals do you think that he would not be censured on it? For intance, if a professor of mathematics or physics said that all the research justifying homosexuality was hogwash and these people were just screwed up and perverted, how long do you think it would be before that professor was taken to task by the students, by the university and by the press?
How about if the “personal opinion” comments of this professor were racist ones? Would you still think that the students and the university should allow it without confrontation?

Yet you think it is perfectly acceptable for a professor to attack Christianity and even to do it with the intention of “bothering Christians”.

I can see from the perspective of a Catholic that it would make sense to confront him if it meant he would stop saying that St. Paul hallucinated, and someone in the audience would not hear it, and their faith would be saved from doubt.

No you don’t see - it is not a matter of whether he will stop making such comments. As you say he probably will not. It has more to do with strengthening the faith and courage of the other students in the class who, like the OP, are insulted by such comments - by such attacks on their faith.

But it’s completely crazy to think that a professional academic who’s been lecturing for a while is going to change the types of things he says because some kid who’s TA’ing for him objects. He won’t care, and depending on the kind of guy he is, and how the OP talks to him, his opinion of her might drop and when the time comes for her to ask for a reference he might not give a good one.

You may be right. On the other hand the professor might consider “backbone” to be a commendable attribute and thus a person who confronts him on this goes UP in his estimation.
In either case, the OP, the TAing Student, gains valuable insight and, more importantly, retains their integrety and their dignity. Plus they have strengthened themselves in their faith by defending God.

There is nothing she can say that will make him stop lecturing as he pleases.

You cannot positively know this.

It’s an enterprise that has no potential benefit and many potential risks.

I disagree that there is “no potential benefit”. You say this because, as an unbeliever, you see this as defending something that does not exist - tilting at windmills so to speak. To a Christian, it is the defence of something more wonderful, more glorious and more important than any “recomendation”, or anything else that this professor could do or not do. It is the defence of the Kingdom of God.
“But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well.” (Mt 6:33)
So - should a Chrisitan keep silent in defence of the kingdom for “potential worldy gain”, or should a Christian defend the Kingdom and allow God to provide what we need?

Peace
James

 

[flyingfish]

If this some professor, in a similar situation made derogatory comments about prcticing homosexuals do you think that he would not be censured on it? For intance, if a professor of mathematics or physics said that all the research justifying homosexuality was hogwash and these people were just screwed up and perverted, how long do you think it would be before that professor was taken to task by the students, by the university and by the press?
How about if the “personal opinion” comments of this professor were racist ones? Would you still think that the students and the university should allow it without confrontation?

You’re probably right, racist comments in particular could not be made by a professor without consequences.

Yet you think it is perfectly acceptable for a professor to attack Christianity and even to do it with the intention of “bothering Christians”.

To an extent, I don’t think you can quite compare attacking someone’s race or sexual orientation to attacking someone’s philosophical views. It’s considered acceptable, especially in academia, to attack belief systems and provoke students.

It’s a bit different if you’re attacking people’s skin color and sexuality.

I don’t think for example that a professor would be censured if he attacked various political philosophies, or if he mocked Kant or Hegel’s belief systems (even if there were some devotees of these philosophers in the class). I would place religion in this category rather than the category of race/gender/sexual orientation/physical disability and the like.

I disagree that there is “no potential benefit”. You say this because, as an unbeliever, you see this as defending something that does not exist, tilting at windmills so to speak.

Not at all, I just think it’s acceptable for people to attack and debate philosophies/belief systems in an academic setting. It doesn’t matter if it’s religion, or philosophy, or political ideology. As long as the professor is not attacking students for subscribing to a particular belief system, but questioning the belief system itself I don’t see the problem.

I don’t think it would go over well for the OP to object to the questioning of a belief system, because in a way protecting philosophies from analysis and criticism goes against the spirit of academic life.

I might not be a believer anymore, but there are still certain philosophical views I like and certain I don’t like. I would not object to a professor questioning, and even mocking cherished philosophical views. I would be curious to hear opposing views on the subject.

 

[HouseArrest]

The thing is you guys are assuming that if she confronts him about it that it will change things.

Do you really think this man is so stupid that he doesn’t realize that saying that St. Paul’s visions were hallucinations would bother Christians? It’s probably the very reason he said it.

Do you think that if she tells him “no, his visions were from God, and what you said may have offended Christian students” that he will say “oh yes, how could I have been so stupid as not to see this, I will never say this again”?!

I can see from the perspective of a Catholic that it would make sense to confront him if it meant he would stop saying that St. Paul hallucinated, and someone in the audience would not hear it, and their faith would be saved from doubt.

But it’s completely crazy to think that a professional academic who’s been lecturing for a while is going to change the types of things he says because some kid who’s TA’ing for him objects. He won’t care, and depending on the kind of guy he is, and how the OP talks to him, his opinion of her might drop and when the time comes for her to ask for a reference he might not give a good one.

There is nothing she can say that will make him stop lecturing as he pleases.

It’s an enterprise that has no potential benefit and many potential risks.

I don’t think she should complain that he’s hurting feelings, I think she should debate the truth of what he said.

 

[JRKH]

You’re probably right, racist comments in particular could not be made by a professor without consequences.

To an extent, I don’t think you can quite compare attacking someone’s race or sexual orientation to attacking someone’s philosophical views. It’s considered acceptable, especially in academia, to attack belief systems and provoke students.

It’s a bit different if you’re attacking people’s skin color and sexuality.

So what you are saying is that someone cannot have “philosophical views” on “race” and “sexuality” but they can on religion.

I don’t think for example that a professor would be censured if he attacked various political philosophies, or if he mocked Kant or Hegel’s belief systems (even if there were some devotees of these philosophers in the class). I would place religion in this category rather than the category of race/gender/sexual orientation/physical disability and the like.

OK

Not at all, I just think it’s acceptable for people to attack and debate philosophies/belief systems in an academic setting. It doesn’t matter if it’s religion, or philosophy, or political ideology. As long as the professor is not attacking students for subscribing to a particular belief system, but questioning the belief system itself I don’t see the problem.

I don’t think it would go over well for the OP to object to the questioning of a belief system, because in a way protecting philosophies from analysis and criticism goes against the spirit of academic life.

I might not be a believer anymore, but there are still certain philosophical views I like and certain I don’t like. I** would not object to a professor questioning, and even mocking cherished philosophical views. I would be curious to hear opposing views on the subject**.

So right here in this section you say on th eone hand it is perfectly acceptable to attack/DEBATE belief systems and then say it won’t go over well for the OP to question the professor’s belief system, then end by saying you’d be curious to hear opposing views.

So which is it. Are the professor’s views open to debate?
Or are they not open for debate because this little dictator may/might/perhaps be able to hurt the OP in some way.
Because this “little dicatator” of a professor might get his feelings hurt if someone challenges his views and he might take it out on the challenger in some petty way…
Because this little professor gets to decide what is and is not “open for debate”.

Peace
James

 

[flyingfish]

So what you are saying is that someone cannot have “philosophical views” on “race” and “sexuality” but they can on religion.

Well, strictly speaking I suppose they could. I mean I see what you’re saying, you could have a belief system that says black people and women aren’t really people (used to be a commonly held view).

And you’re right, expressing this would get someone in trouble.

It seems society has drawn a line at beliefs that seek to harm human beings, and considers them unacceptable.

I would imagine if a professor said that Christians should not be treated as human beings, and should become slaves, or should not be allowed to attend university or should be physically harmed that they’d get in trouble as well.

In general, it seems attacking belief systems is acceptable and welcomed, but attacking the safety/freedom/well being of people is not.

So right here in this section you say on th eone hand it is perfectly acceptable to attack/DEBATE belief systems and then say it won’t go over well for the OP to question the professor’s belief system, then end by saying you’d be curious to hear opposing views.

So which is it. Are the professor’s views open to debate?

I think his views are open to debate, and the OP certainly could debate them. But I still think that from a practical standpoint, the OP shouldn’t do this unless she really knows what she’s talking about and will be able to maintain a cool head and curious nature.

If she ends up preaching at her professor, and telling him that Christianity is God’s Truth and he’s wrong to criticize it, it won’t go over well in terms of the kind of opinion he will have of her afterwards.

If she wants to prepare an argument for why St. Paul’s visions were from God rather than hallucinations or whatever, she could. But it could come across as preaching, and the professor might end up having a low opinion of her as a result.

In her situation he is in a position of power over her, and she may need his good opinion one day to advance in her career. I think it would be imprudent to try to preach to him.

My advice to the OP is borne out of practical consideration and her best interest.

 

[JRKH]

Well, strictly speaking I suppose they could. I mean I see what you’re saying, you could have a belief system that says black people and women aren’t really people (used to be a commonly held view).

And you’re right, expressing this would get someone in trouble.

It seems society has drawn a line at beliefs that seek to harm human beings, and considers them unacceptable.

I would imagine if a professor said that Christians should not be treated as human beings, and should become slaves, or should not be allowed to attend university or should be physically harmed that they’d get in trouble as well.

In general, it seems attacking belief systems is acceptable and welcomed, but attacking the safety/freedom/well being of people is not.

Yes you are right there are certain lines that must be drawn as regards safety, freedom and well being, but don’t think the the Christian viewpoint is not being forcably removed from the public arena. It is happening gradually but it is happening.

I think his views are open to debate, and the OP certainly could debate them. But I still think that from a practical standpoint, the OP shouldn’t do this unless she really knows what she’s talking about and will be able to maintain a cool head and curious nature.

If she ends up preaching at her professor, and telling him that Christianity is God’s Truth and he’s wrong to criticize it, it won’t go over well in terms of the kind of opinion he will have of her afterwards.

If she wants to prepare an argument for why St. Paul’s visions were from God rather than hallucinations or whatever, she could. But it could come across as preaching, and the professor might end up having a low opinion of her as a result.

I know of no one here who has suggested that the OP go off, “half cocked” so to speak.

In her situation he is in a position of power over her, and she may need his good opinion one day to advance in her career. I think it would be imprudent to try to preach to him.

My advice to the OP is borne out of practical consideration and her best interest.

And how is he not “preaching” to her and to the class - and on a matter not germaine to the subject matter of the class? Where does debate end and preaching begin, especially in matters of philosophy?
These are all matters that the OP must consider carefully.
As to the professor’s “authority” - he has none unless she wishes to give it to him and by so doing compromise her own conscience.

Peace
James

 

[flyingfish]

Yes you are right there are certain lines that must be drawn as regards safety, freedom and well being, but don’t think the the Christian viewpoint is not being forcably removed from the public arena. It is happening gradually but it is happening.

I think some people have an issue with some aspects of the Christian viewpoint (such as opposition to homosexuality), because they believe that it’s calling for the harm of people (such as forbidding homosexuals to have relationships).

Maybe with homosexuality in particular there is a history of homosexuals being mistreated in society, both by the violence of fellow citizens, but also by the society itself with homosexual relationships having been crimes in the past.

I know of no one here who has suggested that the OP go off, “half cocked” so to speak.

And how is he not “preaching” to her and to the class - and on a matter not germaine to the subject matter of the class? Where does debate end and preaching begin, especially in matters of philosophy?
These are all matters that the OP must consider carefully.
As to the professor’s “authority” - he has none unless she wishes to give it to him and by so doing compromise her own conscience.

Ideally the professor should not just be saying “St. Paul was hallucinating”, he should be saying “here are the reasons why I think St. Paul was hallucinating… , here is the work done by these people and why they think this, or think otherwise” and so on.

It seems like the OP is TA’ing for a psychology class, so maybe it’s not so outside the subject matter to talk about hallucinations. It would certainly be weird if a math professor started talking about hallucinations in the middle of a lecture.

It is the professor’s job to lecture, to present the views of the establishment, his own views, and whatever he feels is useful to the students in their education. Presumably he was deemed good at these things and given the job.

If the OP decides to challenge him about how he lectures, and if she wants to change his mind about a belief he holds, she could try to do that. But again I would say she shouldn’t, because it would be very easy for her to come across as someone who doesn’t know what she’s talking about, as someone who thinks she knows better and is correcting the professor and telling him how to do his job, as someone who is on a religious mission to convert him and so on. All bad things that won’t make a good impression.

 

[JRKH]

I think some people have an issue with some aspects of the Christian viewpoint (such as opposition to homosexuality), because **they believe **that it’s calling for the harm of people (such as forbidding homosexuals to have relationships).

Maybe with homosexuality in particular there is a history of homosexuals being mistreated in society, both by the violence of fellow citizens, but also by the society itself with homosexual relationships having been crimes in the past.

The bolded and underlined words are the most critical. They believe it’s calling for harm. And for that reason it is shouted down, even though a quick look at the Catachism reveals that no such harm is called for.

Ideally the professor should not just be saying “St. Paul was hallucinating”, he should be saying “here are the reasons why I think St. Paul was hallucinating… , here is the work done by these people and why they think this, or think otherwise” and so on.

It seems like the OP is TA’ing for a psychology class, so maybe it’s not so outside the subject matter to talk about hallucinations. It would certainly be weird if a math professor started talking about hallucinations in the middle of a lecture.

It is the professor’s job to lecture, to present the views of the establishment, his own views, and whatever he feels is useful to the students in their education. Presumably he was deemed good at these things and given the job.

If the OP decides to challenge him about how he lectures, and if she wants to change his mind about a belief he holds, she could try to do that. But again I would say she shouldn’t, because it would be very easy for her to come across as someone who doesn’t know what she’s talking about, as someone who thinks she knows better and is correcting the professor and telling him how to do his job, as someone who is on a religious mission to convert him and so on. All bad things that won’t make a good impression.

Did you note that the subject of the Class is Empathy??
Now given what the professor said, and given the possible negative consequences you believe the professor could attach to being challenged, does his comments, especially if, as you said earlier, he knew it would “bother Christians”, sound very empathic?
Would the professor show empathy with his students if he denounces or holds against them any challenge to his views?

peace
James

 

[flyingfish]

The bolded and underlined words are the most critical. They believe it’s calling for harm. And for that reason it is shouted down, even though a quick look at the Catachism reveals that no such harm is called for.

Some gay people and others might believe that forbidding relationships with other gay people is harmful.

I think on its own it would not be a problem, but our societies do have a history of seriously mistreating gay people (and black people, and women). So any time any kind of belief that sets these groups apart/wants to restrict them in some way is presented, people are reminded of the past and react with that in mind.

Did you note that the subject of the Class is Empathy??
Now given what the professor said, and given the possible negative consequences you believe the professor could attach to being challenged, does his comments, especially if, as you said earlier, he knew it would “bother Christians”, sound very empathic?
Would the professor show empathy with his students if he denounces or holds against them any challenge to his views?

I don’t know what the class was about. It’s possible that the professor made an inappropriate comment unrelated to the subject he was teaching, it’s possible he made it out of malice.

It’s also possible that it was related to the lecture, and was made because the professor thought it was relevant to the students’ education.

I have no way of knowing this not having been in the lecture.

For your second point, I think even if the professor is a nice and approachable guy who would not hold things against a student or denounce a student, he might still end up holding a negative opinion of her if she confronts him. How he perceives her, and whether he wants to work with her in the future would be in part a subconscious reaction. He might never consciously put her down or say bad things about her, but he also might not write a glowing reference or want to work with her again (not out of payback, but simply because he doesn’t feel she’s a great potential academic).

 

[Langdell]

Hello everyone,
I have a prof. who I am TA’ing for this quarter. During lecture, he has made several comments that really bothered me. He told a story about a friend was asking about what areas of the brain are activated during a spiritual experience. But as he was telling the story, he mentioned how he thinks Saint Paul was insane and the whole vision he had of Jesus was a hallucination. Now keep in mind, this is a class on the science of Empathy. His comment really had nothing to do with the subject material. He was just telling an irrelevant story and tried to be funny by making fun of Saint Paul.

Anyway, it really bothered me. Should I bring this up to him? If so, how should I bring it up? I am sure it must have bothered other Christian students.
I bet he would have never made such comments about Mohamed. Any advice would be appreciated.

I’d be inclined to let it go.

Of course, if you want to try to engage your prof. in an academic discussion about Paul, I’m all for that. But I think the best you’d get is agreeing to disagree.

You might also start wearing a necklace with a nice gold cross, outside your blouse, so the prof. can see that you’re a person of faith.

.

 

[JRKH]

Some gay people and others might believe that forbidding relationships with other gay people is harmful.

I think on its own it would not be a problem, but our societies do have a history of seriously mistreating gay people (and black people, and women). So any time any kind of belief that sets these groups apart/wants to restrict them in some way is presented, people are reminded of the past and react with that in mind.

I don’t know what the class was about. It’s possible that the professor made an inappropriate comment unrelated to the subject he was teaching, it’s possible he made it out of malice.

It’s also possible that it was related to the lecture, and was made because the professor thought it was relevant to the students’ education.

I have no way of knowing this not having been in the lecture.

For your second point, I think even if the professor is a nice and approachable guy who would not hold things against a student or denounce a student, he might still end up holding a negative opinion of her if she confronts him. How he perceives her, and whether he wants to work with her in the future would be in part a subconscious reaction. He might never consciously put her down or say bad things about her, but he also might not write a glowing reference or want to work with her again (not out of payback, but simply because he doesn’t feel she’s a great potential academic).

Points taken -
I’d say that, since the OP has not chimed back in, she probably has received an answer to her question and has made a decision on how to proceed.
That being the case, I guess the rest is “acedemic”. INteresting dicusccion though.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Something that just occurred to me -

I am assuming that TA stands for Teaching assistant. Does such assisting include giving lectures? If so, perhaps the TA can offer “her opinion” on Paul as part of her lecture.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I took the liberty of starting a thread on whether there is evidence in the biblical accounts that might point a psychiatrist to the conclusion that Paul Hallucinated this life changing event.
The thread is here

It is a little slow getting started, but there are a couple of good answers so far.

Peace
James

 

[CSUNGerrie]

I disagree with this advice as it is impractical. If this particular professor is anti-Christian, the OP will do herself no good by challenging him.

This is a guy she may someday have to ask a recommendation from to continue her academic career, this may be a guy who at some point may influence the direction of her future (such as if he is on some committee or friends with professors on the committee that accepts to PhD program if OP is not in one already, or influences who gets academic positions).

No, it’s not a good idea to try to convert an academic who appears hostile to religion. It won’t make a good impression, and good luck getting references from him after that.

I would leave this issue alone altogether.

(By the way, his view about St. Paul may not be so out there, I’ve seen quite a few documentaries/read articles suggesting he may have suffered from temporal lobe epilepsy and that was the cause of his visions.

If she is going to confront the prof about it, she should at least research the issue so she doesn’t come across as uninformed.)

I think your right on that I should approach the situation carefully as it is possible that I may require a letter of rec from him in the future. However, I think you miss the point as to why I was offended. Is it possible that people who claim to have visions are having seizures? Absolutely. Of course, as a Christian I do not believe that Saint Paul had a seizure. But if he did, his seizure must have come with amazing healing abilities as well and with amazing courage and Love. But anyway, that is not the point.

It upsets me because anyone with half a brain should know that if you insult a great spiritual figure in a persons faith, you are greatly offended the believer. It is like me telling a story about how your mother is probably mentally insane because she forgot her coffee cup in the top of her car. Is it possible that she did in fact forget it? Sure it is… but it would be incredibly insensitive for me to bring this up in a classroom of 80 students and make this personal attack against you.
By the way, I am a guy. =)

 

[CSUNGerrie]

Are you at CSU Northridge?

Your professor’s comments are not acceptable and you should let him know that. If you are worried about retaliation, I would contact the Office of Equity and Diversity. Religion is a protected category and it is not acceptable for the professor to create a hostile environment in his or her classroom. Everyone who works in a supervisory role within the CSU must receive training regarding the handling of such complaints. Your complaint will be taken seriously.

www-admn.csun.edu/eqtydiv/

hehe, actually I got my undergraduate degree from CSUN. I am now at an institution in Chicago. Wow, thank you for going out of your way to bring this information to my attention.

 

[flyingfish]

It upsets me because anyone with half a brain should know that if you insult a great spiritual figure in a persons faith, you are greatly offended the believer. It is like me telling a story about how your mother is probably mentally insane because she forgot her coffee cup in the top of her car. Is it possible that she did in fact forget it? Sure it is… but it would be incredibly insensitive for me to bring this up in a classroom of 80 students and make this personal attack against you.
By the way, I am a guy. =)

Well, I think there are ways to speak about Christianity that would be inappropriate (such as saying all Christians are bad people, or should be forbidden from attending university or teaching, or saying that Christians are inferior to others).

But consider that maybe you are being too sensitive? If the professor suggests that St. Paul hallucinated, he’s not attacking you, he’s questioning St. Paul.