Progressive Christianity

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Lotharson

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Hi folks, I’ve discovered with great interest your forum!

I came to Christ in an evangelical Church, but now I no longer feel at ease there and go regularly to a roman Catholic Church, even if I don’t believe in the worship of saints.

I’ve created a brandnew blog dealing with my faith and all my struggles, and I’d feel greatly honored to read catholic perspectives on it.

My first post concerns the concept of progressive Christianity:

lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/on-the-definition-and-meaningfulness-of-progressive-christianity/

Lothar’s son - Lothars Sohn
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/

My thoughts are constantly evolving (and hopefully improving!), that’s why I really want to dialog with people having various backgrounds and perspectives.

Lovely greeting from France.
 
Hi folks, I’ve discovered with great interest your forum!

I came to Christ in an evangelical Church, but now I no longer feel at ease there and** go regularly to a roman Catholic Church, even if I don’t believe in the worship of saints. **

I’ve created a brandnew blog dealing with my faith and all my struggles, and I’d feel greatly honored to read catholic perspectives on it.

My first post concerns the concept of progressive Christianity:

lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/on-the-definition-and-meaningfulness-of-progressive-christianity/

Lothar’s son - Lothars Sohn
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/

My thoughts are constantly evolving (and hopefully improving!), that’s why I really want to dialog with people having various backgrounds and perspectives.

Lovely greeting from France.
We do NOT worship saints. We only worship God.
 
Hi folks, I’ve discovered with great interest your forum!
Welcome
I came to Christ in an evangelical Church, but now I no longer feel at ease there and go regularly to a roman Catholic Church, even if I don’t believe in the worship of saints.
I’m glad that you are attending the Catholic mass…I hope you realize that you should not take communion though.
I’m also glad to see that you do not believe in the worship of anyone but God…Catholics agree with this. We do not worship anyone but God
I’ve created a brandnew blog dealing with my faith and all my struggles, and I’d feel greatly honored to read catholic perspectives on it.
I skimmed through your blog post…I cannot really comment on it, however, since you say that you are no longer comfortable with your evangelical group and are currently attending mass, I would like to suggest that you do all you can to learn about the Catholic Church. This is a great site for such study - feel free to ask questions here.
My thoughts are constantly evolving (and hopefully improving!), that’s why I really want to dialog with people having various backgrounds and perspectives.
Amen - I spent many decades away from the Church and like you “evolved” many thoughts and ideas - some good - some not so good -
Your comment earlier about worshiping saints indicates that there is much we can discuss - and help you understand the Catholic Church much better.

It may surprise you to discover that the Catholic Church is perhaps the most biblical of all the Churches…This was actually an interesting surprise to me as well when I discovered it.
Lovely greeting from France.
Greetings to you from Ohio - USA

Peace
James
 
Hi Lotharson and welcome. 🙂

I think you will find this place a rich repository of Catholic knowledge. Some very scholarly people with deep understanding of the faith hang out here regularly and give their time in participating in some incredibly interesting and educational discussions.

One of the best things about CAF is that it is a good place to learn the actual truth about those many “urban myths” about Catholicism - such as the popular misconception that we worship saints. If you do a search of threads you will find discussions about that which will put you straight on it. 😉
 
Hi folks, I’ve discovered with great interest your forum!

I came to Christ in an evangelical Church, but now I no longer feel at ease there and go regularly to a roman Catholic Church, even if I don’t believe in the worship of saints.

I’ve created a brandnew blog dealing with my faith and all my struggles, and I’d feel greatly honored to read catholic perspectives on it.

My first post concerns the concept of progressive Christianity:

lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/on-the-definition-and-meaningfulness-of-progressive-christianity/

Lothar’s son - Lothars Sohn
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/

My thoughts are constantly evolving (and hopefully improving!), that’s why I really want to dialog with people having various backgrounds and perspectives.

Lovely greeting from France.
Lotharson-

Welcome to CAF.

First, I would suggest reading a book on the basics of Catholicsm. Two good ones are from the Dummy Series, of which you are not. Both are written by two Catholic Priests

Catholicism for Dummies
And
Catholic Mass for Dummies

Once you’ve read these, then you can read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You can read it online for free. Read here. I would suggest in the meantime referring to it as you have questions.

But the best suggestion that I have is to contact your local Catholic Church and participate in the RCIA classes which are now starting to form for the 2013-2014 year. They meet weekly are the means of which adults come into the Church at Easter. They basically take a subject or two weekly and educate you on the basics of the Catholic faith. There is no pressure to join the Church but the classes are an excellent way to get educated on the faith.

Pork
 
Hi folks, I’ve discovered with great interest your forum!

I came to Christ in an evangelical Church, but now I no longer feel at ease there and go regularly to a roman Catholic Church, even if I don’t believe in the worship of saints.

I’ve created a brandnew blog dealing with my faith and all my struggles, and I’d feel greatly honored to read catholic perspectives on it.

My first post concerns the concept of progressive Christianity:

lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/on-the-definition-and-meaningfulness-of-progressive-christianity/

Lothar’s son - Lothars Sohn
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/

My thoughts are constantly evolving (and hopefully improving!), that’s why I really want to dialog with people having various backgrounds and perspectives.

Lovely greeting from France.
Lotharson -

I reading your blog I would always start here (or close). How do you know that the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God? By what authority and process did the bible canon come together? Said in another way, how do you know that all 66 books in the Protestant bible are inspired and inerrant? How do you know that the book of Hebrews is inspired? That the Book of Revelation is inspired? Something to think and answer as you journey to Catholicism. Hopefully you can respond before other members of CAF answer for you. 😛
Basically, and at the risk of oversimplifying, (most) evangelicals believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible word of God
And what did Christ himself give us when he left as the pillar of truth? A bible or a Church?
and the very foundation of Christianity
I’ll answer this one below. The question then is what Church?

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

Pork
 
Lotharson -

I reading your blog I would always start here (or close). How do you know that the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God? By what authority and process did the bible canon come together? Said in another way, how do you know that all 66 books in the Protestant bible are inspired and inerrant? How do you know that the book of Hebrews is inspired? That the Book of Revelation is inspired? Something to think and answer as you journey to Catholicism. Hopefully you can respond before other members of CAF answer for you. 😛

And what did Christ himself give us when he left as the pillar of truth? A bible or a Church?

I’ll answer this one below. The question then is what Church?

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]

Pork
I agree with the above…
The issues that are brought up in the blog posting are largely the result of people resting their faith on a non-scriptural faith Tradition - while claiming it to be biblical.

Definitely something that Lotharson should prayerfully consider.

Peace
James
 
I came to Christ in an evangelical Church, but now I no longer feel at ease there and go regularly to a roman Catholic Church
Welcome
even if I don’t believe in the worship of saints.
Whew, good thing Catholics don’t believe in worship of saints either!
My thoughts are constantly evolving (and hopefully improving!), that’s why I really want to dialog with people having various backgrounds and perspectives.
Then please continue to engage in dialog here on CAF!
Lovely greeting from France.
One of my favorite places on Earth!
 
Hi folks, I’ve discovered with great interest your forum!

I came to Christ in an evangelical Church, but now I no longer feel at ease there and go regularly to a roman Catholic Church, even if I don’t believe in the worship of saints.

I’ve created a brandnew blog dealing with my faith and all my struggles, and I’d feel greatly honored to read catholic perspectives on it.

My first post concerns the concept of progressive Christianity:

lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/on-the-definition-and-meaningfulness-of-progressive-christianity/

Lothar’s son - Lothars Sohn
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/

My thoughts are constantly evolving (and hopefully improving!), that’s why I really want to dialog with people having various backgrounds and perspectives.

Lovely greeting from France.
Catholicism can seem liberal to a fundamentalist Christian or conservative to a liberal but she’s neither progressive nor liberal nor conservative; she simply proclaims the truth-the “deposit of faith”-as revealed to her by God. And that faith unashamedly maintains the real, physical resurrection as well as the miracles. God is not a God of talk only, or a God who remains aloof from His creation, but a God of power and might. And a personal being who loves is necessarily superior to an otherwise rather vague and distant impersonal one, one who has no real attributes, no personality.
 
Read through your blog again and have the following comments…
Here, I want to give my own thoughts about the definition of progressive Christianity, as I understand the term and apply it to myself.
Basically, and at the risk of oversimplifying, (most) evangelicals believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible word of God and the very foundation of Christianity.
A fair statement…
Of course, there are differences in the way infallibility is understood, and some conceptions are much more sophisticated than others.
True - and this is one of the things that make the protestant view of Sola Scriptura so problematic…
Yet, the large majority of evangelicals agree that whatever stands in the Bible must be devoutly believed in, even if this leads quite a few of them to conclude that genocide and the butchering of babies is sometimes okay, or that God predetermined many human beings to end up in hell where they’ll suffer eternally for sins he pre-ordained them to do.
Yes - and it leads others to the opposite conclusion (also based on Scripture) which again points to a fundamental problem with the Doctrine of Sola Scriptura as understood and practiced in the Evangelical community
But they generally beg the question: if we found out that the God of an inerrant Bible is not only not superior to our greatest, most beautiful ethical ideas, but infinitely inferior to them and (grating for the sake of the argument) that this being is real, why should we worship him? And why should we call him God anyway?
Since Ihave never heard this question before…it’s difficult to answer…Two possibilities exist though…
  1. That the bible is completely wrong and such a god does not even exist.
  2. That the understanding of the God of the Bible is wrong…in which case further study and prayer and contemplation is required.
To my mind, both progressive and liberal Christianities begin with the realization that it is neither epistemologically nor morally permissible to believe everything standing in our favorite holy book without any kind of reality-check. Our faith should always welcome facts from the external world and from our undeniably true moral intuitions to correct and possibly abandon our theological doctrines.
If we don’t, we cannot bring up a coherent answer to Sam Harris’s contention that religious people would systematically slit the throat of every girl with red hair if God said so in their sacred scriptures.
This is a good point - and again - I must point out that the main problem here lies in the Evangelical take on the principle of Sola Scriptura and how they practice it. Scripture in fact provides for the “reality check” you speak of so that the Body of Christ can speak as one without all the confusion…Evangelicals cannot accomplish this because they hold to an un-biblical view of ekklesial authority.
Liberals believe that miracles are impossible (or at the very least extremely unlikely) and that we should interpret the resurrection as a psychological experience of the first disciples. Many go as far as saying that God cannot be personal (even as a distant landlord) and that he has to be some kind of energy or impersonal concept.
Unlike them, progressive Christians do believe in the reality of a supernatural world, or are at the very least open to it (like in my case).
But they don’t view the Christian faith as fixed, unchangeable, but as constantly evolving as new data come in to correct and improve our beliefs.
This raises an interesting question: if we’ve given up inerrancy, how can we make a difference between true and false beliefs about God?
Scripture provides the answer in the form of the Spirit guided and authoritative Church which Christ established and told us to “listen to” (Mt 18:15-18)…In Timothy we are told that it is the Church which is the Pillar and ground of Truth…and in Eph 3:8-12 we are told that it is, “…through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known…”
I could add to these other verses where Jesus, along with the evangelists exhort us to unity in belief and expression (That is to say doctrinal agreement)
Yet the Evangelical ignores these calls to unity in favor of a non-biblical principle of private interpretation…
While I cannot pretend to speak for every self-described progressive Christian, my response would be that:
  1. Code:
     God has necessarily to be a perfect being
  1. Code:
     Despite all their flaws, humans are quite able to recognize goodness and perfection (and that’s what makes us guilty, like Paul expressed it in Roman 2).
I think that this is very well put…
Of course it should be noted that the reason we are able to recognize goodness is due to God’s grace implanted in us as a free gift from the Father in heaven.

Peace
James
 
Hi folks, I’ve discovered with great interest your forum!

I came to Christ in an evangelical Church, but now I no longer feel at ease there and go regularly to a roman Catholic Church, even if I don’t believe in the worship of saints.
This is veering of topic but no Catholic believes in the “worship of saints” We don’t worship the saints or Mary. We honor them.
 
Hi folks, many thanks for all your kind answers!

I believe that no church is perfect but roman catholicism (in 2013) seems closer to the truth than evangelical Christianity.

Generelly, I find roman Catholics and mainstream protestants much more open and honest than evangelicals.

But I cannot contemplate the possibility of praying to the saints.

I’m also interested in eastern orthodoxy.

Lovely greetings from Germany!
 
Hi folks, many thanks for all your kind answers!
You are welcome…Feel free hang about, contribute and to ask further questions.
I believe that no church is perfect but roman catholicism (in 2013) seems closer to the truth than evangelical Christianity.
hhmmmm…
This is an opinion that I once held as well…However it bases itself on something rather odd…
I’m assuming that you do not see yourself as perfect - or the possessor or all truth - so it is odd indeed to make the assertion that there is no “perfect” church…I mean - since you and are not perfect nor do we possess all knowledge, how can we make such an assertion with any certainty?

That said…Scripture tells us that, for all practical purposes, the Church established by Christ IS perfect and that we should listen to her. She is guided by the Holy Spirit and dos not teach error in matters of faith an morals.
This, of course, is not to be construed with saying that all members of the Church are free from error…That is something quite different.

So Christ, in Scripture, presents us with a perfect Church, led in truth by the Holy Spirit and we are to Listen to that Church…So the question is - where is that Church
The Evangelical points to Scripture and vaguely describes a “body” of the saved as being the Church…but this is not what Scripture describes…

I am not surprised that you should find that the Catholic Church is “closer to the Truth” than the evangelicals…After all, it’s been teahing Christ’s truth continuously since Pentecost. 👍
Generelly, I find roman Catholics and mainstream protestants much more open and honest than evangelicals.
Thanks - we try…
But I cannot contemplate the possibility of praying to the saints.
Understood.
I’m also interested in eastern orthodoxy.
A worthy area of study.
Lovely greetings from Germany!
And howdy from the states.
 
But I cannot contemplate the possibility of praying to the saints.
Lotharson,

This is really simple and not hard to contemplate.

Have you ever prayed for someone or asked someone to pray for you? St Paul says to pray constantly, he asks the Thessalonians to pray for him and that the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

Likewise, God allows the saints in heaven - those that are most righteous - to hear our prayers and are praying for us…Revelation 5 below.

8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints
 
Originally Posted by Lotharson >>
But I cannot contemplate the possibility of praying to the saints.
This is an excellent explanation…

I would like to add - on this subject - that asking for the intercession of saints is not a requirement in the Catholic Church. So if someone is not comfortable in “praying to the saints” (asking for intercession)…they need not do it.

Peace
James
 
Of course we all become saints when we are with God in the Kingdom of Heaven. Praying for the dead is mentioned in the book of Maccabees. The one that was officially omitted from the protestant bible. Yes, the book of Maccabees gave Martin Luther and those protestants fits. The book of Revelation was another book that really gave Luther problems and is one of the most misinterpreted books by the protestant reformers
2*Maccabees 12:43-4643 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view;*44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.*45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.*46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
 
Hi folks, many thanks for all your kind answers!

I believe that no church is perfect but roman catholicism (in 2013) seems closer to the truth than evangelical Christianity.

Generelly, I find roman Catholics and mainstream protestants much more open and honest than evangelicals.

But I cannot contemplate the possibility of praying to the saints.

I’m also interested in eastern orthodoxy.

Lovely greetings from Germany!
Praying to Saints and the Communion of Saints Proved from Scripture

**1. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ **

“Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.” (Romans 12:4-5)

“The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

And we are joined with Christ through baptism

“having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)

“We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” (Romans 6:4)

“for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” (Galatians 3:27)

**2. All Christians are connected through the Body of Christ **

“If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.”(1 Corinthians 12:26)

“If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you” (2 Corinthians 2:5)

**3. Physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ **

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39)

**4. There is only one Body of Christ in Heaven and on Earth **

“by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:15-16)

“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-5)

**5. The Church is the Body of Christ **

“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” (Ephesians 1:22-23)

“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy” (Colossians 1:18)

**6. Just as we can pray for one another, we can suffer for one another because we are all connected in Christ **

“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)

7. If you can ask a member of the Body of Christ on earth to pray for you, then you can also ask someone who is a member of that same Body of Christ in heaven to do the same for they are not “dead” at all.

“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." (Luke 20:38)
 
I looked at the title and thought … Isn’t ALL Christianity supposed to be "progressive?
Aren’t we suppose to progress in Love and in Holiness?

Just thought I’d toss that in…

Peace
James
 
Hey James, of course every Christian has to progress in love!

I do believe that contemplating the face of God, revealed to us through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is a good way to come forward in this domain :=)

But I believe that progressing in love also means letting go of harmful dogma, whether or not they’re present in the Biblical canon doesn’t matter.

Lothars Sohn - Lothar’s son

lotharlorraine.wordpress.com
 
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