"Progressive Creationism"

  • Thread starter Thread starter JosephSharon
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JosephSharon

Guest
I’ve always been an evolutionist. I’ve always ascribed to whatever the mainstream scientific thought was. The thought of evolution, however, has always greatly disturbed me to no end. That being said, I do not think that the theory of evolution is at all opposed to the religion or the existence of a creator. I’ve always felt that God created the universe billions of years ago, which led to the formation of planets and all the other matter in the universe. He then created the first single-cellular organisms and allowed evolution to take effect. He may or may not have guided or participated in this process.

As I said, the thought of evolution and that homo sapiens have evolved from an animal that is similar in appearance to a giant rat with a long tail has always disturbed me greatly. Therefore, today I came to a determination: For the benefit of my mental health, I shall “blow macroevolution out of the water”, by listening to every critique and criticism of the Theory of Evolution, until I convince myself that it is invalid. That is what I did.

Firstly, let me state that I feel that the Book of Genesis is meant to be interpreted entirely allegorically. I do not believe that any of the events in the Genesis actually occurred: Neither the “Flood” nor “Adam and Eve” nor “the Exodus”. I could never learn to be a biblical fundamentalist or literalist.

I suppose what I have become today would be termed as a “progressive creationist.” I approach this theory not as a Christian (which I am), but as a deist - one who believes in the existence of a Creator. What I now believe is that there has never been any macroevolution. I don’t believe that evolution has led to the creation of any new species. I don’t believe that “Species A” evolved into “Species B”, which evolved into “Species C.” I believe that “Species A” was created at one point and that “Species B” was created hundreds of millions or billions of years later, and that “Species C” was created some time after that - and then some of those species went extinct. However, I believe in microevolution - changes within species, such as the changes seen in dog breeding and birds developing beaks of different shapes through the generations.

Now I must find a way to differentiate myself from Christian fundamentalists, biblical literalists, and “Young Earth” creationists. There are people who believe that the earth is 6,000 years-old and that there is scientific evidence for the “Flood.” I do not want to be included in the same lot as these people and that is my fear in labeling myself any kind of a “creationist” - albeit a “progressive” one at that.

As I said, I now believe that all the species on earth were created at different times throughout the history of our planet. That begs the question, however, how those species spontaneously came into existence. There is no way that this can be said without sounding silly and unscientific, but I cannot think of any other way for them to come into existence in my model, than for them to simply “materialize” some place on the planet.

As I said, there is no possible way for me to take literally “Adam and Eve.” Can anyone come up with an alternative to or a better way of saying the last sentence of the previous paragraph? Could any of you ascribe to the model that i’ve created?

Thank You
 
Joseph…on many points I think a lot of Christians would agree with you.

Clearly the scientific evidence supports a world more than ~6000 years old. I also agree with your points on macro vs. micro-evolution.

From my perspective, it’s not difficult to live with a species "just appearing’. The Cambrian Explosion seems to support this line of reasoning and really…if God can create the universe with a single thought, He surely can create a species where/whenever He desires.
 
Firstly, let me state that I feel that the Book of Genesis is meant to be interpreted entirely allegorically. I do not believe that any of the events in the Genesis actually occurred: Neither the “Flood” nor “Adam and Eve” nor “the Exodus”. I could never learn to be a biblical fundamentalist or literalist.
Well, Exodus actually isn’t in Genesis - it is a book unto itself.

As for Genesis being an allegorical tale, I would disagree with you on that claim. I agree that the creation stories are allegorical (two stories back-to-back, each written as poetry), as well as the tale of Noah (which seems to me to be very tied in with the creation stories), I think starting with Abram that it’s meant to be taken as a real tale - I see no reason not to believe that Abraham could not have existed (even the Muslims recognize his existence). Are you afraid of believing in the Exodus just because you don’t want to be labelled as a fundamentalist? Many-non fundamentalists believe it.

As for your progressive creationism, I am not an expert in these things. I believe in the Big Bang being caused by God. As for evolution, I feel we are sort of similar. While I accept it because it has the most proof for it, something feels wrong about it.
 
I know it’s been a while since this thread was active, but I felt like adding, in case anyone came upon this, I heard that Pope Pius XII in Humanae Generis (spelling?) declared that Catholics have to believe in an Adam and Eve - the first two humans - and must believe they caused the Fall by sinning, though not necessarily the way the Bible says so.
 
If one looks at these events with happenings even in today’s world of reality, we know that the crossing of the Red Sea (on dry land) could of been accomplished by an underwater volcano resulting in a shift of ocean and sea water one direction, then creating a tsunami effect when it returned to drown the soldiers.
And we also know that years ago, the flood during Noah’s time could of been a mix of spring rains with the added warmer then normal northern spring resulting in vast glacier melt… the combination of these two creating the massive flood. I say this as just a few hundred years ago, where I now live there was a 60 foot glacier… and that depth of ice melted down to form the many lakes and distribute the fertile rich soil we now have for crops.
If God can work through nature, as this volcano in Iceland, global warming will not happen any time soon; since when Mt St. Helen’s erupted, it took some 3 years for that ash (CO2) to fall resulting in the coldest winter we have seen for a long time 2 years later… this may happen over Europe and Russia in the next few years as well.
Bringing in Adam and Eve… we had to come from somewhere! How far back can one trace their family tree… and they all (according to DNA) have origins in Northern Africa; these DNA tracers and markers are not found in the ape or monkey, only in the humans, and spreads into all the races of humans… meaning that our locations on this earth and environment and foods over many generations have created different looks in us, add to that cross breeding and we are all ‘hybrids’… none are ‘heirlooms’ yet we all have these tracer markers in our DNA. This implies we had ‘single’ origins and then spread throughout the world… and now with trade being worldwide, we may again start looking alike since we can eat some foods out of season and some grown where we are not, this not limiting us to our own back yard of food only. If this is so by science and DNA (which is still developing) we had to start from some source and no other animal, although there are some that ‘appear’ like us, have this DNA tracer… meaning, if they don’t have it, there is no way it could be passed on to us… it came from somewhere else… where?
I also believe early humans could talk with God and God to them… and they knew WHO HE was. Today that is called psychotic, if it happens. However, our ‘conscience’ tells us that God can still talk to us in non-language ways if we don’t rationalize away these sensations. Perhaps, over the years most became like Cain and ended up closed off from God in the ways of the earlier generations (even Noah and the prophets following him), a few have remained like Abel but seem to get Crucified one way or another, or merely stuffed into institutions called insane.
Our world today is set up for reality and who determines what that is: called normal. In the process, anything else is removed to unseen places… driving God further and further into the background and harder and harder to detect or feel or sense. Even laws are made contrary to conscience trying to numb God’s touch within us even more as people believe the government makes just laws… sometimes yes; sometimes no! As the OP has went the side of science (so has the church, they are not contrary), but science alone does not have all the answers, but does have some.

There is more to Heaven and Earth then meets the eye! Keep an open mind and curious intellect… but the spirit and soul are on different ‘unseen’ levels unless you can see God in a volcano…
 
I would remind everyone to remember one thing. When God told Moses the story of Creation, he was not telling this to a nuclear physicist, an expert in relativity, a geneticist. He was a shepherd, a former prince of Egypt. He was not the most intelligent person in the world. Nor were the Israelites, who Moses was going to have to explain this story too. The fact is, that God must speak in a language in which they could understand. He didn’t lie to them, he dumbed it down for them.

Let me give you guys an example. Did you know that the same word for ‘day’ in the Hebrew language could also translate to mean ‘age’. An specified amount of time, in which there is a beginning and an end. The Hebrews’ concept of time was based on the idea of the day. Many cultures have similar concepts, whether it be the lunar cycle, the four seasons, or some other natural occurring event.
So on the first day, where it says, “Let there be light.” From the Hebrew point of view, this means, “Let the Sun rise, and the day begin.” The first day was not about the creation of light. It was the Creation of time. This is further seen by how the light, time, is divided into two parts, the day and night. Beginning and End.

I always hate hearing people argue about Evolution vs. Fundamentalism. The fact is, we don’t know. And we won’t be able to know, unless we find Moses’ original copy of Genesis, and then Moses appears and explains what the heck he was talking about.

My last point. The English language is a language of details. We have a word for 'effing everything. Most older language incorporated the concepts of what we see to be different words, all into a single word, because they saw and understood the connections between them, and kept them so in their language. So the problem is that from the perspective of God when he had Moses write the book of Genesis, he intended for those multiple meanings to be there. So anyone who does a translation and says it is the end all, be all answer to our question is acting like an arrogant fool.

Archistrage
 
**My last point. The English language is a language of details. We have a word for 'effing everything. **Most older language incorporated the concepts of what we see to be different words, all into a single word, because they saw and understood the connections between them, and kept them so in their language. So the problem is that from the perspective of God when he had Moses write the book of Genesis, he intended for those multiple meanings to be there. So anyone who does a translation and says it is the end all, be all answer to our question is acting like an arrogant fool.

Archistrage
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
So true!
 
Hello JosephSharon,

Your belief, that God could have separately created the species found in the fossil record, correlates well with the interpretations of Hugh Ross, a (Protestant) Canadian Old Earth Creationist and astrophysicist who has written several books on Old Earth Creationism. He runs an apologetics organisation called ‘Reasons to Believe’, which has a website of the same name.

Ross and his colleagues believe in Adam, Eve, and other Genesis characters as historical figures, and a literal Deluge (a local flood). They reconcile this with the findings of modern science. In general, their Biblical exegesis and scientific arguments are more sophisticated and reasonable than that found in Young Earth Creationist works.

Pax tecum
 
You may want to read Pierre Teilhard de Chardin’s work such as The Divine Milieu.
As a mystic and visionary, a Jesuit, Chardin is a scientist who believes creation was not a single act, but a process that has never stopped. His spirituality unites intellect and adoration, science and religion, evolution and creation. Chardin is a well respected scientist and a priest who tirelessly pursued the connection between science and religion. He felt only through purity of heart, not pure science, one can discover the creator behind all the forces of nature.

His work may give you some insights.
 
You may want to read Pierre Teilhard de Chardin’s work such as The Divine Milieu. As a mystic and visionary, a Jesuit, Chardin is a scientist who believes creation was not a single act, but a process that has never stopped. His spirituality unites intellect and adoration, science and religion, evolution and creation. Chardin is a well respected scientist and a priest who tirelessly pursued the connection between science and religion. He felt only through purity of heart, not pure science, one can discover the creator behind all the forces of nature. His work may give you some insights.
Teilhard’s Mass on the Universe is also a beautiful, insightful work.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top