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malphono
Guest
Same as they did with the neo-Ambrosian. At least the Ambrosian (even the neo-Ambrosian) is also available in Latin. I hope the same is true for the Mozarabic.
How depressing.
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P
ProVobis
Guest
Indeed. Nothing seems to be sacred anymore.
But that’s what I thought of gold, myrrh, and frankinsense until gold made a comeback.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
You keep commenting on my post number but it seems you never read my posts. Sad that sometimes I have to post the same things over and over again because I can’t seem to get through a thick wall.
Also, take note that I’m always on a 4on1 or 5on1 here. Can’t help having a lot of posts when you’re being ganged upon on.
P
ProVobis
Guest
I believe you’re the one challenging traditions, in contempt of the language of the Church, and supporting progressiveness in the Church. You expected what?
O
Ockham
Guest
The Archbishop is a brick wall?
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
In this thread I’m not challenging tradition. I’m explaining the position of and the situation in my home country.
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ProVobis
Guest
I believe that tradition and progressiveness are mutually exclusive. If you’re promoting progressiveness, then you’re against tradition. But that’s me.
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mardukm
Guest
Nope. Vernacular liturgy is a more ancient Tradition than “Latin only.” Wait. Wasn’t the Latin Mass a vernacular Liturgy when it first started out?
Blessings
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
I’m not promoting progressiveness. The way I understand Philippine society tells me that the Church won’t go that far. Catholicism is intertwined with our society. To give an example, in another forum there is a topic about “Filipino traditions that you do not follow.” One person commented that he doesn’t go to Mass every week. To him and to many of my countrymen, its Filipino culture to go to Mass every Sunday. Over there, you’ll know when its lent. Every restaurant will have lent menus because most people are Catholics. Sometimes you can’t even tell Catholics from non-Catholics because everyone knows the practices and traditions in the culture that are intertwined with Catholicism. That is why to me inculturation isn’t necessarily a bad thing. In the end it could be, but from what I know about my culture and how conservative our Bishops are, I do not expect it to be a bad thing. Because it is different there.
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mardukm
Guest
That is a very good point. I think many in this thread judge “progressive” by Western standards, because it’s all they’ve known.
Aside from that, of course, the idea of “progressive” isn’t even in the language of the statement from the Archdiocesan website. I think someone along the way during the discussion decided to arbitrarily foist that upon the intentions of the Committee.
Blessings
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
I do find it understandable that some of the words used are keywords for traditionalists that something progressive is about to happen. However my familiarity with the culture and the situation of the Church there tells me otherwise. Still, I could be wrong at the end of this all, but as you’ve said we need to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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ProVobis
Guest
Who told you this? Sounds like another progressive party line. Frankly, I doubt it. Latin had become already vulgarized into Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, etc. Saying Latin was common would probably be more accurate. Maybe the Latin Mass was a way of saving Latin in the Western Rite back then too?
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ProVobis
Guest
Don’t understand you here. Like traditionalists are to blame for there being all this progressive thinking in megachurches and now in the Filipino Catholic Church for the past 50 years?
O
Ockham
Guest
Is your familiarity greater than the Archbishops of Manilla or Ozamis? The bottom line in this thread is two archbishops (along with the Pope) are trying to correct the liturgical practices in the Philippines and certain members of the laity are trying to entrench a customized “Filipino liturgy” It doesn’ matter how many posts you make that’s the essential point you are up against.
L
Layman
Guest
Latin is now a sacred language. It’s set aside for religious use. One rarely hears it in day-to-day life. Thus, it’s perfect for transmission of our worship. It can’t accrue vulgar meanings. It’s musical and simple to learn. It has the history.Nope. Vernacular liturgy is a more ancient Tradition than “Latin only.” Wait. Wasn’t the Latin Mass a vernacular Liturgy when it first started out?
Blessings
I can’t wait 1500 years for the local lingo to go likewise. Dropping Latin is very short-sighted.
O
Ockham
Guest
And contrary to where the leadership of The Church is trying to take us. Emphasis mine.
“An effort will be made to make common Latin chants popular during this year. With this aim in mind the Archdiocesan Coordinator for Liturgy, together with Mr Francis D’ Almeida will be organising sessions of practice in all 15 deaneries and teach all choirs some basic Latin chants which could be used in parishes and institutions. Once these practice sessions take place parishes may sing at least the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus and Agnus Dei at parish Sunday Masses on the first Sunday of the month. No. 36 of the Constitution on the Scared liturgy clearly sets forth the principles in this regard. Latin still remains the main liturgical language of the Church. In Sri Lanka we made a mistake in abandoning the language of our worship altogether. Let this Eucharistic Year be an occasion for us to resuscitate this lost tradition at least to some extent. I appeal to all priests, religious and laity to cooperate”.
+Malcolm Ranjith
Archbishop of Colombo
archdioceseofcolombo.com/news.php?id=1014
So much for that theory of Latin being a Western imperialist weapon. Unless things in Sri Lanka are much different than the Philippines.
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ProVobis
Guest
I understand the progressive mindset now wants to kill Greek and Hebrew too.
No better way to do it than suffocate the exposure and reinforce the vernacular.
O
Ockham
Guest
*Looking back, some of the culprits for me for the gradual loss of the true reform of the liturgy were the so-called “liturgists” who were more like technicians and choreographers rather than pure students of liturgy.
They had a peculiar affinity for refined liturgical celebrations coupled with disdain for the old rites and devotions. Unfortunately, some bishops, not pure students of liturgy either, gave in to their terrorist proclivities.
…]
These self-appointed arbiters of the reform were, and I hate to say this, **liturgical hijackers *who deprived ordinary parishioners – and bewildered pastors – of their right to the normative worship of their own Church. Hence, there was the need for a reform of the reform.
ucanews.com/2010/09/23/the-liturgical-renewal-i-would-like-to-see/
Wasn’t the Novus Ordo orginally designed to be said Ad Orientum in Latin?
They had a peculiar affinity for refined liturgical celebrations coupled with disdain for the old rites and devotions. Unfortunately, some bishops, not pure students of liturgy either, gave in to their terrorist proclivities.
…]
These self-appointed arbiters of the reform were, and I hate to say this, **liturgical hijackers *who deprived ordinary parishioners – and bewildered pastors – of their right to the normative worship of their own Church. Hence, there was the need for a reform of the reform.
ucanews.com/2010/09/23/the-liturgical-renewal-i-would-like-to-see/
Wasn’t the Novus Ordo orginally designed to be said Ad Orientum in Latin?
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mardukm
Guest
WHOAAAAAH there, cowboy. Let’s reign it in a bit. Can you please explain to us how a vernacular liturgy translates to ANYTHING being said above (“self-made”, “spontaniety”, “extreme inculturation”, “hastily”, “secular”).
Blessings
M
mardukm
Guest
From the same article by the Archbishop of Ozamis:
**In his letter to the bishops of July 2007, he expressed the hope that the two forms of the one Roman liturgy might cross-fertilize each other, the old Missal being enriched by the use of the many beautiful collects and prefaces of Paul VI’s reformed Missal, and the celebration of the Novus Ordo recovering by example some of the “sacrality” that characterized the older form.
It is just like Anglicanorum Coetibus, the Apostolic Constitution providing for personal ordinariates for Anglicans entering into full communion with the Catholic Church, about which the Pope talked to the Bishops of England and Wales in their ad limina visit.
“It helps us to set our sights on the ultimate goal of all ecumenical activity: the restoration of full ecclesial communion in the context of which the mutual exchange of gifts from our respective spiritual patrimonies serves as an enrichment to us all,” Anglicanorum Coetibus reads.
Despite Summorum Pontificum, Pope Benedict himself has only celebrated the ordinary form of the Mass in public, “facing the people” in the manner of the Novus Ordo, using modern languages, all as stipulated in the Liturgical Books of the different countries where he celebrated.**
The context indicates that the use of vernacular was not on the mind of the Archbishop of Ozamis when he described the excesses of the “so-called liturgists.”
End of debate.
Blessings
**In his letter to the bishops of July 2007, he expressed the hope that the two forms of the one Roman liturgy might cross-fertilize each other, the old Missal being enriched by the use of the many beautiful collects and prefaces of Paul VI’s reformed Missal, and the celebration of the Novus Ordo recovering by example some of the “sacrality” that characterized the older form.
It is just like Anglicanorum Coetibus, the Apostolic Constitution providing for personal ordinariates for Anglicans entering into full communion with the Catholic Church, about which the Pope talked to the Bishops of England and Wales in their ad limina visit.
“It helps us to set our sights on the ultimate goal of all ecumenical activity: the restoration of full ecclesial communion in the context of which the mutual exchange of gifts from our respective spiritual patrimonies serves as an enrichment to us all,” Anglicanorum Coetibus reads.
Despite Summorum Pontificum, Pope Benedict himself has only celebrated the ordinary form of the Mass in public, “facing the people” in the manner of the Novus Ordo, using modern languages, all as stipulated in the Liturgical Books of the different countries where he celebrated.**
The context indicates that the use of vernacular was not on the mind of the Archbishop of Ozamis when he described the excesses of the “so-called liturgists.”
End of debate.
Blessings
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