Progressive Philippines Catholicism

[Layman]

The idea that TLM = Lay incomprehension is a dud one, anyway. I’ve attended the TLM for a few years now. In practice:

• The Epistle and Gospel is read out in English;
• The sermon is in English;
• The Latin text is translated in a booklet provided.

So what is a layman going to miss out on? “Bind Us Together” and being an EMHC?

The Pope is really smart. He’s done an end run around the Bishops and modernists with Summorum Pontificum etc. Even if he does nothing more, lack of vocations in liberal dioceses + contracepting liberal Catholics (i.e. demographics) would see a change in our worship in due course.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This is not a valid argument. People want to use contraceptives, not have to do Penance on Fridays, not have to learn anything at all, etc, etc. The Church must decide and teach what’s good in the long run for the Church and this may not be what people want today for themselves in their own backyard. You either follow their rules or you don’t.

Thanks for editing my entire post and then proceeding to criticize my edited statement.

IT IS A VALID ARGUMENT.

Why? Because the people are asking for a legitimate option. Contraception is NOT a legitimate option. A Mass entirely in the vernacular is a legitimate option.

Next time please read my post in its entirety and quote it in its entirety before criticizing.

edit: And I stated it very clearly in my post that what the people are asking for is a LEGITIMATE OPTION. This is not a question of people asking for something that is not allowed. I did also mention that I will be the first to oppose if people ask for something that is not allowed. But in this case people are asking for what is legitimate. Therefore there should be no complaints.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The idea that TLM = Lay incomprehension is a dud one, anyway. I’ve attended the TLM for a few years now. In practice:

• The Epistle and Gospel is read out in English;
• The sermon is in English;
• The Latin text is translated in a booklet provided.

So what is a layman going to miss out on? “Bind Us Together” and being an EMHC?

The Pope is really smart. He’s done an end run around the Bishops and modernists with Summorum Pontificum etc. Even if he does nothing more, lack of vocations in liberal dioceses + contracepting liberal Catholics (i.e. demographics) would see a change in our worship in due course.

See, in the Philippines there are no Missals printed for the people. Because we are a third world country and poor, books tend to go missing all the time. Many people resort to petty crime just to have something to eat every day. The paper from missals will be brought to paper recyclers where these people will get some money for their food. Its a sad reality but it is the reality. And like I mentioned before, many people aren’t even that good with reading, if they can read at all. So much for missals.

 

[ProVobis]

But in this case people are asking for what is legitimate.

Sorry not to repeat your entire post but if what it is is legitimate, why are they “asking” for it? To make it more legitimate?

 

[ProVobis]

So much for missals.

Again sorry for not repeating your entire note but this is wrong. As I indicated on another thread, I see many missals and/or missalettes being used at the OF. Or people looking for something to follow. Apparently the spoken word in the vernacular isn’t as understandable as Latin detractors want us to believe. Recognizing a few spoken words isn’t necessarily understanding the truth.

 

[Ockham]

The bottom line to this entire discussion is that a group of liturgists got together and took a position contrary to the Archbishops of the country. For the non-traditional people who post in this sub-forum to support the liturgists means they are disagreeing with the bishops. Strange because that is a common tactic they use when arguing for things like Communion in hand - obedience to the bishops. The pope and senior clergy are trying to bring order back to the liturgy; not just in one country or region but the entire Church. That’s what 'Catholic" means - universal. All these posts about how different it is in the Philippines are moot. There’s one church, one OF and one EF in the Latin Rite. Accept it or find another place to go Sundays.

 

[ProVobis]

That’s what 'Catholic" means - universal.

catholic.com/library/What_Catholic_Means.asp

Excerpt:

…people who recite the creeds mentally inserting another meaning for “Catholic” are reinterpreting them according to a modern preference, much as a liberal biblical scholar does with Scripture texts offensive to contemporary sensibilities.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Again sorry for not repeating your entire note but this is wrong. As I indicated on another thread, I see many missals and/or missalettes being used at the OF. Or people looking for something to follow. Apparently the spoken word in the vernacular isn’t as understandable as Latin detractors want us to believe. Recognizing a few spoken words isn’t necessarily understanding the truth.

Sorry but thats not the case in the Philippines. You will see in photos that projector screens have wide usage in almost all the parishes in the country because keeping missals is out of the question. Refer to my reply to Layman for the explanation.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Sorry not to repeat your entire post but if what it is is legitimate, why are they “asking” for it? To make it more legitimate?

No, they are asking for it to be kept that way. They’re stating that they prefer that the Mass in the vernacular. Since Mass is alredy in the vernacular, then it means they’re just stressing the point that they prefer that it stays that way. Or simply put, no Latin. I know that traditionalists want more Latin, but all-vernacular is a legitimate option so I don’t think people should be criticized for wanting something legitimate.

 

[Ockham]

I know that traditionalists want more Latin, but all-vernacular is a legitimate option so I don’t think people should be criticized for wanting something legitimate.

The Archbishop wants at least some Latin. Why do you persist in this incessant defiance?

 

[ProVobis]

The Archbishop wants at least some Latin.

I believe that’s more authoritative than what people “legitimately” want.

 

[malphono]

The bottom line to this entire discussion is that a group of liturgists got together and took a position contrary to the Archbishops of the country. For the non-traditional people who post in this sub-forum to support the liturgists means they are disagreeing with the bishops. Strange because that is a common tactic they use when arguing for things like Communion in hand - obedience to the bishops. The pope and senior clergy are trying to bring order back to the liturgy; not just in one country or region but the entire Church. That’s what 'Catholic" means - universal. All these posts about how different it is in the Philippines are moot. There’s one church, one OF and one EF in the Latin Rite. Accept it or find another place to go Sundays.

 

[patrick457]

Sorry but thats not the case in the Philippines. You will see in photos that projector screens have wide usage in almost all the parishes in the country because keeping missals is out of the question. Refer to my reply to Layman for the explanation.

Ah yes…imagine my surprise when I went to my first Mass here in Japan. The pews were all packed with those Missallettes.

That being said, I don’t see why they couldn’t distribute missalette pamphlets - kind of like the Sambuhay that the Daughters of St. Paul publish.

 

[Layman]

See, in the Philippines there are no Missals printed for the people. Because we are a third world country and poor, books tend to go missing all the time. Many people resort to petty crime just to have something to eat every day. The paper from missals will be brought to paper recyclers where these people will get some money for their food. Its a sad reality but it is the reality. And like I mentioned before, many people aren’t even that good with reading, if they can read at all. So much for missals.

Three thoughts:

1. So because people might steal missalettes, at Mass, the Mass must be in Filipino?
2. However did people manage to be pious, even saintly, in the days when people couldn’t read and there was no vernacular at Mass? Yet nowadays, with mass media, Catholics are becoming ever more ignorant of their faith. The vernacular certainly doesn’t seem to be helping.
3. Lay comprehension of every word said at Mass is not essential to the Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

Three thoughts:

1. So because people might steal missalettes, at Mass, the Mass must be in Filipino?
2. However did people manage to be pious, even saintly, in the days when people couldn’t read and there was no vernacular at Mass? Yet nowadays, with mass media, Catholics are becoming ever more ignorant of their faith. The vernacular certainly doesn’t seem to be helping.
3. Lay comprehension of every word said at Mass is not essential to the Mass.

One could argue in fact that the vernacular had led to a false sense of security.

Yes, I’m having problems getting into this forum this morning. I’m surprised I got in here just now.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Ah yes…imagine my surprise when I went to my first Mass here in Japan. The pews were all packed with those Missallettes.

That being said, I don’t see why they couldn’t distribute missalette pamphlets - kind of like the Sambuhay that the Daughters of St. Paul publish.

Last time I was there I know they kind of still do. But none of them makes it past the morning Masses. I know I’ve been terrible in terms of attending early morning Mass in the Philippines but suffice to say no matter if there were any of those leafelet missals in the morning, none of them makes it to the afternoon. For various reasons of course. Some people intentionally or unintentionally take them home, others are damaged, while others are just gone with the wind, literally.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Three thoughts:

1. So because people might steal missalettes, at Mass, the Mass must be in Filipino?

Well, its one good reason. How else will people understand a Latin Mass without a Missal?

The best reason of course is the people prefer it and the Church allows it. Its as simple as that.

1. However did people manage to be pious, even saintly, in the days when people couldn’t read and there was no vernacular at Mass? Yet nowadays, with mass media, Catholics are becoming ever more ignorant of their faith. The vernacular certainly doesn’t seem to be helping.

Maybe you’re just putting the blame on the wrong thing. The world is different 50 years ago than it is today and you can’t just blame the form or the language of the Mass for that.

1. Lay comprehension of every word said at Mass is not essential to the Mass.

True, but if they want to comprehend it and its allowed to be comrehensible, then why withhold it? Mind you that I’ve been to a Chaldean Holy Qurbana (Mass) and had no English Missal. While I appreciated the beauty of their traditions in their liturgy, its not something I’d be wanting to go to week after week.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I believe that’s more authoritative than what people “legitimately” want.

True, but you still can’t criticize people for asking something that is legitimate. I’m not arguing about who makes the decision. The argument here is that the requests are being criticized but the requests are legitimate. So why criticize a request that is legitimate? Just because you don’t agree with it?

 

[Layman]

Well, its one good reason. How else will people understand a Latin Mass without a Missal?

Let’s see: The gospel, epistle and sermon will be said in Filipino.
Even poor people can afford a basic paperback missal, if they’re keen to read the priest’s text. Which they don’t need to be.
The lay responses are simple and, as Spanish is a derivative of Latin, even easier for Filipinos to learn.

Ah, what the heck, let’s have the whole thing in Filipino. Perish forbid the locals should have to stretch themselves, even a bit, for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. They won’t do it. They can’t manage it. Poor, wee babies (weeps). [sarcasm]

The best reason of course is the people prefer it and the Church allows it. Its as simple as that.

‘The people’ know no other option. When Latin Masses are introduced in parishes in the West, you get a few outspoken critics, who, when challenged, fade away.

‘The Church allows it’ is no argument. It is like saying “It should be done, because it’s allowed” i.e. “It’s allowed … because it’s allowed”.

Maybe you’re just putting the blame on the wrong thing. The world is different 50 years ago than it is today and you can’t just blame the form or the language of the Mass for that.

I can say it hasn’t helped. The reforms were touted as heralding a new springtime. They haven’t worked. The case can be made that they have harmed the Church. Time to try something else.

True, but if they want to comprehend it and its allowed to be comrehensible, then why withhold it? Mind you that I’ve been to a Chaldean Holy Qurbana (Mass) and had no English Missal. While I appreciated the beauty of their traditions in their liturgy, its not something I’d be wanting to go to week after week.

Because it would be nice to think our worship could be preserved from change by mediocre minds. That the Mass could be the same across nations. That people might once again grasp that the Mass is not directed at them but towards God.

Having lay people able to hear the priests text in their own language comes a very poor second to this.

 

[ProVobis]

Well, its one good reason. How else will people understand a Latin Mass without a Missal?

They managed to, for the better part of 1600+ years.

And today, they not only have the Missal, but the internet, language software, mailing list groups, Catholic groups, you name it. Only things that are really necessary is exposure and an open mind.