Progressivism and Church Teaching

[JMMJ]

Some, but not all things.

 

[Mr_Freeze]

OP, You are correct.
“Progressive” is ordered to the subjective constraints of our particular time & place.
Faith is ordered to the objective truth which can not change.

 

[OnAJourney]

But those things which we stand opposed to are very big issues. And they’re never going to see it from our perspective

 

[OnAJourney]

I’ve seen too many instances where progressives call people of faith “bigots” for simply holding to basic Christian morals on those issues.

 

[redbetta]

Progressives? Don’t you mean regressives? Because you can hardly call the things they demand progress.

 

[GKMotley]

May I express appreciation for a echo of Voegelin. Whether it comes via Buckley or not.

 

[GKMotley]

Thomas Molnar/UTOPIA: THE PERENNIAL HERESY.

 

[niceatheist]

Oh I’m aware of Rousseau and his ideas. I just think that his ideas have become far more prevalent on the left. He essentially takes the position that we can’t leave people to choose to be free, we have to force them

If your freedom impinges on my freedom, then what’s the solution? The US had to go through a Civil War and ultimately the Civil rights movement before African-Americans could even begin to enjoy the same freedoms as other people, all because some peoples’ notion of their own personal liberty had a heavy element of limiting another group’s freedom.

It strikes me the chief complaint here isn’t about freedom at all, but how some social conservatives’ views are no longer in vogue, and they are steadily losing the power to impose their views on the wider population. It’s about the loss of power, not about the loss of freedom.

 

[HopkinsReb]

Via Goldberg via Buckley

 

[GKMotley]

I miss Buckley.

Goldberg in LIBERAL FASCISM?

Do try Molnar if you haven’t and can find it. Had a large impact on me.

 

[HopkinsReb]

If your freedom impinges on my freedom, then what’s the solution? The US had to go through a Civil War and ultimately the Civil rights movement before African-Americans could even begin to enjoy the same freedoms as other people, all because some peoples’ notion of their own personal liberty had a heavy element of limiting another group’s freedom.

I don’t think anybody here is arguing for slavery, or anything resembling it.

It strikes me the chief complaint here isn’t about freedom at all, but how some social conservatives’ views are no longer in vogue, and they are steadily losing the power to impose their views on the wider population. It’s about the loss of power, not about the loss of freedom.

I’m compelled by the state to finance abortions. As we all know, the state of Colorado tried to force a baker to participate in a “wedding” against his conscience. California got slapped down for trying to compel crisis pregnancy centers to advertise abortion services (of course, there was no requirement for abortionists to advertise for crisis pregnancy centers).

Yes, there are those Christians who are lamenting a loss of Christian power in government. But there is a legitimate gripe against the way that the progressive left is trying to force everybody to fall in line.

I miss Buckley.

I wasn’t old enough to appreciate him during his life, but I agree.

Goldberg in LIBERAL FASCISM?

Primarily correct. Though he has somewhat moved on from his approach in that book, what he refers to as “intellectual connect-the-dots,” a lot of what he says in it is still useful.

Do try Molnar if you haven’t and can find it. Had a large impact on me.

I’ll look into it.

 

[niceatheist]

I’m compelled by the state to finance abortions. As we all know, the state of Colorado tried to force a baker to participate in a “wedding” against his conscience. California got slapped down for trying to compel crisis pregnancy centers to advertise abortion services (of course, there was no requirement for abortionists to advertise for crisis pregnancy centers).

You are compelled to pay taxes, but those taxes are raised by your elected representatives. Don’t like what they choose to spend your money on, then vote for someone who commits to spending the money on what you want. That’s always been the case. Welcome to representative democracy.

 

[niceatheist]

Wow, thanks for explaining to me how democracy works. I had no idea! Man, I wish they had taught me that DURING MY DEGREE IN PUBLIC POLICY. Thanks, Captain Obvious!

So now that we’ve established that you don’t always get what you want in a democratic system, how does that jive with your complaint that you’re “forced to pay for abortions”. After all, your neighbors are forced to pay for the road to your house. Maybe they don’t like you very much, and would rather not pay for the road. Would you like to live under a system of government where people can just wantonly withhold taxes because they don’t like some of things the money goes to pay for?

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

Wow, thanks for explaining to me how democracy works. I had no idea! Man, I wish they had taught me that DURING MY DEGREE IN PUBLIC POLICY. Thanks, Captain Obvious!

So now that we’ve established that you don’t always get what you want in a democratic system, how does that jive with your complaint that you’re “forced to pay for abortions”. After all, your neighbors are forced to pay for the road to your house. Maybe they don’t like you very much, and would rather not pay for the road. Would you like to live under a system of government where people can just wantonly withhold taxes because they don’t like some of things the money goes to pay for?

I’d like to live in a system in which I was not compelled to help finance chopping babies apart.

Just because it was democratically determined doesn’t mean it’s right. Pointing out that we live in a representative democracy is an absolutely stupid and pointless response to criticism of a law or a movement. Of course we do. But you’ve made no point whatsoever about my complaint.

 

[niceatheist]

I’d like to live in a system in which I was not compelled to help finance chopping babies apart.

Just because it was democratically determined doesn’t mean it’s right. Pointing out that we live in a representative democracy is an absolutely stupid and pointless response to criticism of a law or a movement. Of course we do. But you’ve made no point whatsoever about my complaint.

Of course it doesn’t mean it’s right. I’ve seen anti-war activists for decades declare that it’s wrong that they have to pay for military expenditures. But in a representative democracy, the will of the people is expressed through their elected representatives. No one has a direct say in what they have to pay and where that money is to be directed. The solution to your problem is to vote for people who would commit to not funding abortions.

Of course, you’re bigger problem, at least in the United States, is the majority of voters don’t want outright bans on abortion. So you have another and probably even more important task. Rather than griping about where your taxes go, convince a majority of your fellow countrymen to go to your stronger anti-abortion view. That’s democracy. And the flip side is that if you can’t convince enough of your fellow voters, then you may just have to accept it, just as lots of other groups who have significant gripes about where their tax dollars go ultimately have to.

 

[OnAJourney]

How exactly is the government funding planned parenthood not an impingement on my freedom? I don’t want to subsidize a private charity that performs abortion services, yet I get absolutely no say in the matter.

 

[HopkinsReb]

HopkinsReb:

I’d like to live in a system in which I was not compelled to help finance chopping babies apart.

Just because it was democratically determined doesn’t mean it’s right. Pointing out that we live in a representative democracy is an absolutely stupid and pointless response to criticism of a law or a movement. Of course we do. But you’ve made no point whatsoever about my complaint.

Of course it doesn’t mean it’s right. I’ve seen anti-war activists for decades declare that it’s wrong that they have to pay for military expenditures. But in a representative democracy, the will of the people is expressed through their elected representatives. No one has a direct say in what they have to pay and where that money is to be directed. The solution to your problem is to vote for people who would commit to not funding abortions.

Of course, you’re bigger problem, at least in the United States, is the majority of voters don’t want outright bans on abortion. So you have another and probably even more important task. Rather than griping about where your taxes go, convince a majority of your fellow countrymen to go to your stronger anti-abortion view. That’s democracy. And the flip side is that if you can’t convince enough of your fellow voters, then you may just have to accept it, just as lots of other groups who have significant gripes about where their tax dollars go ultimately have to.

I don’t have to “just accept” anything. I can argue and debate about them. That’s actually why we have things like online forums. Of course these things have to be worked out through republican and democratic channels; I don’t recall arguing against that (though the progressives argue against that, since, again, you can’t have institutions pulling against the will of The State).

So yes, I vote based on what I want to see. I never have sought and never will seek to have those who disagreed with me compelled to do what I think good, such as dragged kicking and screaming into church. I’d like the same courtesy; I’m not going to try to force you at gunpoint to be a Christian, and I’d like not to be forced at gunpoint to finance abortions.

But voting only happens a few times a year, including local ballots. In between those days, I’m not just going to sit silently and say, “well, we live in a democracy, so I’ll just sit here on my hands until voting day.” I’m going to argue for what I believe in. I’m not sorry if you’re bothered by my doing so.

 

[niceatheist]

How exactly is the government funding planned parenthood not an impingement on my freedom? I don’t want to subsidize a private charity that performs abortion services, yet I get absolutely no say in the matter.

It’s the compromise that makes representative democracy works. You don’t have absolute freedom, and your tax dollars will inevitably go towards paying for things you don’t like.

 

[niceatheist]

I’m not telling you to sit silently. Quite the opposite. Keep fighting for what you believe. The acceptance comes from having to accept that a majority of your fellow voters simply won’t agree with you.

 

[HopkinsReb]

I’m not telling you to sit silently. Quite the opposite. Keep fighting for what you believe. The acceptance comes from having to accept that a majority of your fellow voters simply won’t agree with you.

Yet.

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