Project for Catholics- Explain these sacramentals

[myfavoritmartin]

prodigal-sun:

I would define vain repetition as any prayer sent to the pagan gods.

A prayer that is not vain would be any prayer sent to The Lord our God. I would also say there is no limit to the number of those prayers said in sequence!

I’m sure we can agree upon that!

Peace!

agreed

 

[myfavoritmartin]

JSmitty2005:

That’s easy enough. Liturgical anything is something that comes along with Judaism. Jesus is the Logos (icons). Fire represents the light of Christ. Church buildings evoke the supernatural and are supposed to draw our minds towards God. Bowing your head is a sign of respect. All the rest are mere practices that are not forbidden in the Bible.

scriptural grounds?

 

[JSmitty2005]

myfavoritmartin:

Sorry didn’t see too many postings going on, I do read and understand your definition, mine however is diffrent in that I see this waoman giving devotion credence and admiration in the wrong area and then christ correcting her and saying "blessed are** those**
that hear the word of god …

Wouldn’t you consider the Blessed Virgin Mary to fall under “**those ** that hear the Word of God”?

This brings up yet another point: hearing the Word of God. Jesus *didn’t * say “blessed are those that *read * the Word of God.” Protestants often point to Romans 10:9,13 to justify their position that we are saved by faith alone. It says that “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved…For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’” You have to remember, though, that a text without a context is only a pretext. If we read further we see that Scripture lays out the following conditions:

“But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed?
And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
And how can they **hear ** without someone to preach?
And how can people preach unless they are sent?”
(Romans 10:14-15)

The foundational condition that underlies the idea of being saved by “confessing with your mouth…” is that you must hear from someone who was “sent.” So, what’s so significant about this word “sent”? The word in Greek is “apostello.” Does that sound familiar? It has the same root as the word apostle (which is “apostolos” in Greek). So, this passage is saying that you must hear from an apostolic authority to know what to believe and, consequently, what to confess with your mouth. Who is it that has apostolic authority today considering that all the apostles have been dead for quite some time now? The one, holy, Catholic, APOSTOLIC Church!

Back to the Mary thing, though, we don’t venerate her womb or her breasts, we venerate her* as a person. After all, our bodies are dust and to dust we shall return.

*“Blessed are YOU amongst women.”

 

[LeahInancsi]

This is a fabulous thread!!!

I hope Protestants come to understand how wonderful the traditions and Traditions of the Catholic church are and why we do what we do.

See what you’re missing.

:clapping: :dancing: :bowdown2:

 

[myfavoritmartin]

JSmitty2005:

Wouldn’t you consider the Blessed Virgin Mary to fall under “**those ** that hear the Word of God”?

Sure I do, but the point here is that I understand your disecting of
this verse completely but I’ll choose to believe this verse in the way I interpret it.

JSmitty2005:

This brings up yet another point: hearing the Word of God. Jesus *didn’t * say “blessed are those that *read * the Word of God.” Protestants often point to Romans 10:9,13 to justify their position that we are saved by faith alone. It says that “if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved…For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’”

also these verses
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.​

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.​

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

Jhn 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

Jhn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.​

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.​

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.​

Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.​

JSmitty2005:

Who is it that has apostolic authority today considering that all the apostles have been dead for quite some time now? The one, holy, Catholic, APOSTOLIC Church!

This is a whole nother debate going on in the thread (foundation), but I will simply say this, there are enough question marks for me to feel that the body of believers are the church spoken about in the bible. The church pre-constantine was completely different than post consantine, the bishop of Rome it is widely accepted didn’t have papal authority until what close to a hundred years after consantine? late 300’s early 400’s. and wasn’t called pope until 607 gregory the first.

Back to the Mary thing, though, we don’t venerate her womb or her breasts, we venerate her* as a person. After all, our bodies are dust and to dust we shall return.

*“Blessed are YOU amongst women.”

Not above but among

 

[JSmitty2005]

myfavoritmartin:

I’ll choose to believe this verse in the way I interpret it.

“Heresy is from the Greek word meaning ‘choice’… But we are not permitted to believe whatever we choose, nor to choose whatever someone else has believed.”
-St. Isidore of Seville (AD 560-AD 636)

Not above but among.

Actually, if you understood semitic languages you’d know that they lack a superlative and that the way they say “most blessed of all women” is “blessed among women.” So, yes, she is certainly blessed ABOVE ALL OTHER WOMEN. In fact, she is the most blessed creature of all. More blessed than any man, woman, or angel.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

“Heresy is from the Greek word meaning ‘choice’… But we are not permitted to believe whatever we choose, nor to choose whatever someone else has believed.”
-St. Isidore of Seville (AD 560-AD 636).

Trust me I already understand that by Catholic standards I am a heretic and am anathema. (pre-judged on papal authority not Christ) to be cursed unto damnation. Thank you concil of trent!

JSmitty2005:

Actually, if you understood semitic languages you’d know that they lack a superlative and that the way they say “most blessed of all women” is “blessed among women.” So, yes, she is certainly blessed ABOVE ALL OTHER WOMEN. In fact, she is the most blessed creature of all. More blessed than any man, woman, or angel.

I’ll have to take your word on that since I am not. Though I still would refer to latter verse in the gospel of luke but we went through that yesterday, right?
Peace

 

[myfavoritmartin]

By the way smitty it has been a pleasure conversing with you on these diffrent issues, I just wanted to share that, as you can tell my knowledge in these areas we speak is all learned knowledge from the previous year or less, and self taught essentially by reading the bible and studying early history and obviously some current day writers.
I am not anything more than a humble servant with a desire to learn and share what I’ve learned. So thank you for pleasantly being a part of that.

Your Brother,
Martin

 

[myfavoritmartin]

“Heresy is from the Greek word meaning ‘choice’… But we are not permitted to believe whatever we choose, nor to choose whatever someone else has believed.”
-St. Isidore of Seville (AD 560-AD 636)
.

Why is your definition right to you and mine to me? Yours becuse you choose to follow the catholic church, me because I’ll acccept the way the Holy Spirit has helped me to read and understand the bible.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

sorry didn’t cap the c in Catholic, not intentional

 

[jpjd]

I’ve been waiting patiently for the subject of Mary gardens to come up…but since it hasn’t, I guess I have to bring it up!

Could someone explain what a Mary garden is?

 

[JSmitty2005]

myfavoritmartin:

Why is your definition right to you and mine to me? Yours becuse you choose to follow the catholic church, me because I’ll acccept the way the Holy Spirit has helped me to read and understand the bible.

I was just saying that we don’t have unlimited freedom to choose everything we do in life. (Women don’t have the right to choose to kill their children.) Likewise, we don’t have the right to concoct our own personal truth. Truth is absolute…meaning it is unchanging, objective, and universal. You may believe that the Holy Spirit has led you to a certain interpretation, but because we know that God cannot contradict Himself and that He is NOT the author of confusion, then how do you account for differing interpretations of equally sincere Christians that believe the Holy Spirit is guiding them as well? At most, only one of our interpretations is correct. They can’t both be right. They can both be wrong, though. But logically, there’s no such thing as the whole “that may be true to you but not to me” garbage.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

jpjd:

I’ve been waiting patiently for the subject of Mary gardens to come up…but since it hasn’t, I guess I have to bring it up!

Could someone explain what a Mary garden is?

Here is the start of the explaination on ewtn.com, I didn’t post the whole staory but this should give an Idea.

Mary Gardens of the Flowers of Our Lady named for the Blessed Virgin Mary dating back to medieval times bring a wealth of meanings distilled from flower imagery applied to Mary from Scripture**(?)** by the Church Fathers and early liturgies; and also from “relics” and legends of Our Lady brought back to Europe from Bethlehem, Nazareth and Jerusalem by returning Crusaders and pilgrims; and from many other associations with Mary perceived by the eyes of faith.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

JSmitty2005:

At most, only one of our interpretations is correct. They can’t both be right. They can both be wrong, though. But logically, there’s no such thing as the whole “that may be true to you but not to me” garbage.

You are correct and I accept my interpretation.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

smitty, you should know my points i’m making aren’t meant to be discrediting Mary in any way, rather they are that Christ wants us to go directly to him through his word. Mary is tops of any human though no person could ever get me to pray to Christ through her or ever believe in the 19th or 20th century Catholic doctrines of immaculate conception and sinless life or the bodily assumption of her and I believe that the sole purpose of Christ saying rather are those that hear the word … was specifically so people would understand not to go through here to praise Christ.

Luk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

not to go through her…i typed here (oops)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

one could also say that the following, kind of puts Mary’s post birth significance into perspective. Therefore giving more understanding to luke 11:28

luke 2:49
And He said to them(Mary and Joseph), “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father’s {house?}nab” (doing my fathers business)kjv

 

[St.Eric]

myfavoritmartin:

smitty, you should know my points i’m making aren’t meant to be discrediting Mary in any way, rather they are that Christ wants us to go directly to him through his word. Mary is tops of any human though no person could ever get me to pray to Christ through her or ever believe in the 19th or 20th century Catholic doctrines of immaculate conception and sinless life or the bodily assumption of her and I believe that the sole purpose of Christ saying rather are those that hear the word … was specifically so people would understand not to go through here to praise Christ.

Luk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed [is] the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Thanks for the info on Mary Gardens. I had never heard of them before. As for going to Jesus through Mary or any other saint for that matter; I hear this protest from a lot of protestants: Why can’t you go directly to Jesus? (I used that same argument when I was a protestant myself). Well, the answer is we CAN and DO go directly to Jesus. And we go to Mary and or the other saints for additional prayers for us to God. The very same way you and other protestants go to other perople for them to pray to God for you and your intentions. Protestants regularly ask their pastor, prayer groups, family members, etc, to pray for them and thier intentions. Why do you do this if you can go directly to Jesus. By asking someone else to pray to Jesus on your behalf or anyone elses behalf, you are asking that person to be a mediator between you and Christ.
This is the very same thing that Catholics do with Mary and the other saints. They are in the presence of God, ALIVE, not dead, and we are asking them to pray for us- in ADDITION to the prayers we preent directly to Jesus. Protestants do the SAME thing by asking other people on this earth to pray for them. If you TRULY believed you only need to go DIRECTLY to Jesus- then you would NEVER ask another creature to pray for you- you would take care of it yourself.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

St.Eric:

. And we go to Mary and or the other saints for additional prayers for us to God.

Think about it though, the amount of time going through Mary and the other saints, could be used to pray directly to our Father. Do Catholics feel there getting a one up by having the saints talk to him as opposed to humbly going to him.

St.Eric:

The very same way you and other protestants go to other people for them to pray to God for you and your intentions. Protestants regularly ask their pastor, prayer groups, family members, etc, to pray for them and thier intentions. Why do you do this if you can go directly to Jesus. By asking someone else to pray to Jesus on your behalf or anyone elses behalf, you are asking that person to be a mediator between you and Christ.

It would be called a multitude of prayers, by having a prayer request put out. Quite diffrent than Hail Mary Mother of God…actually praying to for intercession is diffrent than simply saying say a prayer for me.

 

[JSmitty2005]

myfavoritmartin:

I believe that the sole purpose of Christ saying rather are those that hear the word … was specifically so people would understand not to go through her to praise Christ.

Not at all. The woman was not specifically talking about Mary. She may not have even known her! Like I said before, she was really saying how blessed Jesus was…and He surely is, but He responded that way because He is humble. As for going through Mary to get to Jesus, why not? He chose to go through her to get to us!