Prolonged Abstinence in Marriage

[bumby]

Just one last thought…

I hope this doesn’t come across as rude, but do you think you are letting your desperation for no more children get in the way of what seems like a good marriage? I mean, God may not plan for you to have any more, but if not having sex is having such a dire effect on your marriage, perhaps you should use NFP, have sex and see what happens. We are, after all, called to ‘accept children lovingly from God’. (Or words to that effect, if I remember correctly. Terrible really, I’ve only been married three years.)

It is really scary I do admit, saying ‘I hand my fecundity over to you, God.’
I hope after this baby is born that I can do just that and have faith that NFP will not become a nasty word (or initialism) for me - or you!

 

[mybundlesofjoy]

I don’t mean to be stubborn, I really don’t, but I just don’t understand how 2 people can reconcile these differences. If a husband isn’t meeting his wife’s needs for intimacy OTHER THAN sex, it’s hard to feel connected enough to care about meeting his needs for sex. In our case, it just feels like something he has to do, like a bodily function, not an act of intimacy. Like, OK, if I don’t “service” him, he’s gonna get all mad and “blue-balled” and be frustrated. That’s a crude way to put it but that’s truly how it feels. He approaches me even when I have already told him I am sick! Like, I’ve had a sore throat for over a week and haven’t gone to the doctor, well I am coping OK with it so I guess he thinks it’s not that big a deal, so he starts making references to having sex! How about, NO! When it feels like I"m being stabbed in the throat with a fork every time I swallow, having sex isn’t uppermost in my mind! There’s a New Yorker cartoon that shows a woman with a bandage on her head in a hospital and her husband next to her, she is saying “Not now, dear, I have a concussion.” That’s about how I feel, except I think if I were in a freaking coma, he’d still want to have sex.

So, since he obviously DOES NOT CARE how I feel, based on his continuing to push for sex when I am sick, it does not lead me to want to bother with it even when I am well.

I know it’s a sin but I can’t get over feeling as if I am totally getting ripped off because he will be getting everything he wants in return for giving NOTHING back (intimacy, a real relationship).

Juliane, my husband has done that to me too when I am somewhat sick (not throwing up!), or when I was tired, etc… but I know him, and I KNOW he loves me. I really think men are just wired differently and just don’t think about these things in the same way we do. My husband has explained to me that making love is the WAY he shows that he loves me (does in other ways too, but that is one way that he “feels” like he is showing me). It IS a good thing that he wants you, right? Let me ask you: Does your hubby work for you, do things for you around the house? Is he faithful to you? That has got to stand for something. He may not be a romantic, he may not always be intimate in other ways, but that is him. I don’t think you denying him is going to help anything, it’s going to make him respect you less, which I KNOW is not what you want.

That being said, I took a glance inside my “Examination of Conscience for Adults” that I recently bought (from Miller in 1959… recommended by the FSSP and EXCELLENT). It lists under the “mortal sins” category of “chastity”:

Have I, without a good reason, refused or neglected to render the marriage obligation when seriously asked?

So it’s not just a minor thing… it’s a serious thing. Is it really worth it?

Also, as a personal note (and perhaps why I am sensitive to this): my mother did the same thing to my father for years, only being “available” on a very limited basis (like once every few months or a year limited). He was the opposite: very much the sexual one and it lead him to many other forms of sexual impurity. Now yes, he was obviously a bit TOO sexual, but it ended up that he transferred that over to my sister and I. NOT at ALL saying that was my mother’s fault; it most definitely was not, but I can’t help but think that it certainly did not help the situation. In fact, it wasn’t until many years later that she admitted that she had been wrong in that regard and that she was now being more free… and lo and behold he commented that he finally had gotten a handle on his masturbation problem (not in the same conversation!).

So it really can be an occasion of sin for men to not have their needs met in this way. Since all sins of impurity, even “minor” ones, are mortal material, it seems a grave injustice to deny your husband over him not showing as much intimacy as you would like (especially since it’s also grave for you!).

I’m sorry I’m being so blatant, I never was the one to try and tiptoe through my words. I hope you can see beyond my bluntness and hear what I have to say.

As far as your side of things, would he consider reading or having you share with him parts of the “love languages” book that is out there? In my experience, men don’t get hints or attitudes or “behind the scenes” punishments, they really don’t. It may initially turn into a fight, but if you can share your feelings directly it does seem to make more headway.

 

[EvelynEVF]

I’ll be blunt right back on the other side

I think it’s important to take the whole relationship picture into account and the mental health, etc of both spouses. I “serviced” my husband for years while he contributed nothing to the marriage but a paycheck. Nobody understood, and all encouraged me to keep doing the right thing, giving “unconditionally”. I wasn’t Catholic yet, and the Catholics I know now were horrified to learn what was going on.

Now, we don’t know the OPs entire situation, etc, but I can tell you from personal experience that an ongoing situation where a wife is putting out for her husband and it isn’t mutual, is devastating. People used to tell me, “No man wants to have sex with his wife when she doesn’t want to be doing it,” and I wondered why my husband did.

So I guess what I’m saying is, step carefully. Any husband who finds himself being “serviced,” needs to see the red flags waving around his head. It can potentially slide into marital rape, and accidentally communicating to a wife that this is what the church and God expect of her as a wife, would be a big mistake.

No easy answers.

 

[utunumsint]

I’m in the same situation as you ldavid, only we are just starting. My wife is 32, so we have a long and fertile road ahead of us. With four kids in 7 years, I expect that we will have several more kids by the time she is 40.

That said, fertility apparantly declines substantially in the 40s. Maybe her chances of getting pregnant are smaller?

babycenter.com/0_chart-the-effect-of-age-on-fertility_6155.bc

Just a thought…

God bless,
Ut

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

A man after my own brain! Spoken like a mathematician - “if and only if”. I’ve been an adjunct math professor at 3 local colleges since I stopped being a pastor, but since I don’t have the appropriate letters after my name, I’m more or less an impostor. However the vast majority of the 80-odd hours I work each week is spent with my head in a book and my brain in hyper-logic mode trying to stay a few steps ahead of my students. Unfortunately it’s hard to switch modes when I come home and having conversations with a member of the species whose thought process is non-linear and intuitive (or completely illogical, depending on your point of view) can cause short-circuits and flying sparks. But that is getting off topic…

Thanks for the tip - I will google Dr. Billing and look for his/her research. I will have to find another trade though, as I am already “toilet man” in our house. I’m “anything gross” man, actually. Any bodily excretion that ends up somewhere it’s not supposed to be is my realm, which is fine with me; I’m not as squeamish as dw. When a boy runs in the house with blood streaming down his head, she goes into a screaming, panic-stricken paralysis (as if she’s never seen this before). I calmly walk downstairs, asses the situation, ask questions, determine if he’s going to die in the next 5 min., and usually end up bandaging the wound myself (we used to go the ER a lot; after I saw what they do and why, I can do most of it at home, as long as I can get the wound to stay closed without staples… I wonder how much those staple guns they use cost and where I could buy one?..)

ld (lolligagging a bit on Sat. morning - back to the grind!)

You can learn Billings online with an instructor. www.woomb.org

 

[PaulGH]

Hi ldavid,

As a married man, I sympathize with you. I anticipate that my wife and I may find ourselves in a similar situation with regard to longer periods of abstinence, once we reach our forties and the menopause process begins.

However, I also agree with those who have recommended that you do more research into NFP techniques, as you might find that you don’t have to abstain quite as much as you have been.

I would strongly recommend the following book, if you can find it:

The Ovulation Method: Natural Family Planning by John Billings

The book is short, and the method is simple. It has worked well for my wife and I, and the authors claim that it also works well during menopause (or pre-menopause, or whatever the correct term is). Obviously I can’t guarantee that it will work for you, but I have heard many positive things about the method, and little if any negative. It also has been studied and has been found to have a high effectiveness rate when used correctly.

Unfortunately, the book appears to have gone out of print recently. But you may be able to find a used copy at a reasonable price. Right now I see that www.bookfinder.com shows several new and used copies for under $15, though several of them appear to be unavailable when I click on the price. Alibris has a few copies listed here, including one for $4.20 plus shipping. (The price for a new copy was around $10 on Amazon.com when I checked about two or three years ago, so anything under $15 is pretty reasonable considering that it is apparently out of print.)

Another avenue to explore is that you could see if there is a doctor in your area who uses NaPro Technology and the Creighton Model of NFP. You can find a listing of doctors here, or you can find out more about the Creighton Model of NFP here. I didn’t see any doctors listed in Michigan, but if there is one in a nearby state (or even in Canada) who isn’t too far, then it might be worthwhile to make an appointment, and get NFP guidance from a medical professional.

I hope this helps. Also, if you just can’t find an available copy of that book that I recommended, then send me a private message. I might have an extra copy that I could loan to you. (Though I can’t promise. I seem to remember having an extra copy, but I will have to go look for it, and I might find that we already gave it to someone else. But one way or another I would try to work something out in order to get the information to you.)

 

[PaulGH]

You might also try this other book on the Billings Method, which is in print:

The Billings Method by Dr. Evelyn Billings and Ann Westmore

I haven’t read it, so I can’t vouch for it personally. But I assume that it has the same basic information as the book I recommended in my previous post. I also notice that it is longer than the other book, so it may have more detail on some topics, such as menopause and breastfeeding.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Juliane, my husband has done that to me too when I am somewhat sick (not throwing up!), or when I was tired, etc… but I know him, and I KNOW he loves me. I really think men are just wired differently and just don’t think about these things in the same way we do. My husband has explained to me that making love is the WAY he shows that he loves me (does in other ways too, but that is one way that he “feels” like he is showing me). It IS a good thing that he wants you, right? Let me ask you: Does your hubby work for you, do things for you around the house? Is he faithful to you? That has got to stand for something. He may not be a romantic, he may not always be intimate in other ways, but that is him. I don’t think you denying him is going to help anything, it’s going to make him respect you less, which I KNOW is not what you want.

That being said, I took a glance inside my “Examination of Conscience for Adults” that I recently bought (from Miller in 1959… recommended by the FSSP and EXCELLENT). It lists under the “mortal sins” category of “chastity”:

Have I, without a good reason, refused or neglected to render the marriage obligation when seriously asked?

So it’s not just a minor thing… it’s a serious thing. Is it really worth it?

Also, as a personal note (and perhaps why I am sensitive to this): my mother did the same thing to my father for years, only being “available” on a very limited basis (like once every few months or a year limited). He was the opposite: very much the sexual one and it lead him to many other forms of sexual impurity. Now yes, he was obviously a bit TOO sexual, but it ended up that he transferred that over to my sister and I. NOT at ALL saying that was my mother’s fault; it most definitely was not, but I can’t help but think that it certainly did not help the situation. In fact, it wasn’t until many years later that she admitted that she had been wrong in that regard and that she was now being more free… and lo and behold he commented that he finally had gotten a handle on his masturbation problem (not in the same conversation!).

So it really can be an occasion of sin for men to not have their needs met in this way. Since all sins of impurity, even “minor” ones, are mortal material, it seems a grave injustice to deny your husband over him not showing as much intimacy as you would like (especially since it’s also grave for you!).

I’m sorry I’m being so blatant, I never was the one to try and tiptoe through my words. I hope you can see beyond my bluntness and hear what I have to say.

As far as your side of things, would he consider reading or having you share with him parts of the “love languages” book that is out there? In my experience, men don’t get hints or attitudes or “behind the scenes” punishments, they really don’t. It may initially turn into a fight, but if you can share your feelings directly it does seem to make more headway.

Thank you for the forthright response. I am a blunt person myself, just give me the truth as you see it and cut the flowery language and don’t worry so much about charity! Unless you are cussing me out or flaming me, even then, I can still hear it and not hate you for it. I try to take what people say with a grain of salt if I need to. I have a thicker skin than I used to when I was younger! And I would rather not have people waste their time twisting themselves into knots so as not to “offend” me. Just say what you want and let me handle the rest.

I’ll be one of the last people on this forum to complain that someone is being uncharitable!

I will ponder your response. I know my part is wrong. I know it. But I can’t overcome my deep hurt and resentment. At least, I haven’t been able to up to now. Sometimes I think I have, and then it surges up again. I think because at this point, we are totally locked into our separate positions, it’s hard for either of us to understand the other. No, he doesn’t do anything around the house. He never really has. I took care of the home, the kids, and everything that wasn’t his job, because I thought he would appreciate me for removing that burden from him and would then relax more and work less. What really happened is that he worked even more because he had no other responsibilities. He did interact with the boys and as much of a mess as his own childhood was, that in itself is a triumph.

I may seek out some counseling. I had my own dreams along the way - a larger family, a God-centered marriage, a happy retirement with us traveling or doing enjoyable things - and these dreams have to be grieved and released. I cannot have any more kids and he would never be interested in fostering or adopting. He is more of an atheist than he is a Catholic so that dream must be given up (I know God can work miracles and I still pray for him, but I can’t hold out that kind of hope right now). And retirement for a workaholic? Anathema! At least he hasn’t cheated on me like his father did to his mother. I have to let go of all the hopes I had that somehow, I could be at least as important to him as his addiction is. That is never going to happen. He thinks I am the sick one because I want more intimacy and I cry when I talk about our married life.

All he could say the other night about our marriage was that he “stuck it out.” We’ve been married 22 years and I bore his sons and that’s what I get? I have done everything to make a happy home for us and our sons and he has “stuck it out?” Do you see what I mean?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I’ll be blunt right back on the other side

I think it’s important to take the whole relationship picture into account and the mental health, etc of both spouses. I “serviced” my husband for years while he contributed nothing to the marriage but a paycheck. Nobody understood, and all encouraged me to keep doing the right thing, giving “unconditionally”. I wasn’t Catholic yet, and the Catholics I know now were horrified to learn what was going on.

Now, we don’t know the OPs entire situation, etc, but I can tell you from personal experience that an ongoing situation where a wife is putting out for her husband and it isn’t mutual, is devastating. People used to tell me, “No man wants to have sex with his wife when she doesn’t want to be doing it,” and I wondered why my husband did.

So I guess what I’m saying is, step carefully. Any husband who finds himself being “serviced,” needs to see the red flags waving around his head. It can potentially slide into marital rape, and accidentally communicating to a wife that this is what the church and God expect of her as a wife, would be a big mistake.

No easy answers.

For me, it seems as if there really is no intimacy in our marriage without sex. And when we do have sex, it feels as though it is my body he desires only, not my soul, spirit, personality and emotions. Some of our previous routines were sinful, which now gives me a great deal of guilt. I have confessed but since I can’t really explain why I no longer want to do those things (he is Catholic in name only and derides the Church quite a bit), we keep on doing them and then I have to confess again. He thinks I have become a frigid Catholic female, so another thing to blame on the Church. He has never been a physically affectionate person but it’s gotten worse over the years, he almost never spontaneously hugs me or just wants to cuddle. It always has to turn into sex, so I stopped asking for more contact b/c I don’t want to always have to go further.

Oh it’s just a big mess…!!! We were in counseling and we stopped going because we weren’t getting anywhere, the counselor was Christian but really didn’t know what to do to help us, I guess. We never brought up the sex thing except in veiled terms during a couple of our last few sessions…but it’s one of the more critical issues. At least for him - for me, I don’t care any more and mostly just want him to leave me alone. I honestly never feel that desire for sex that I used to. Never do. I love my husband and it hurts me a lot that we aren’t close, but really, we never have been. I’m his mistress, it’s his work that is his main interest.

I don’t mean to hijack this thread. I’ll have to quit now or it’s going to become me just complaining from here on out.

 

[mybundlesofjoy]

I will ponder your response. I know my part is wrong. I know it. But I can’t overcome my deep hurt and resentment. At least, I haven’t been able to up to now. Sometimes I think I have, and then it surges up again. I think because at this point, we are totally locked into our separate positions, it’s hard for either of us to understand the other. No, he doesn’t do anything around the house. He never really has. I took care of the home, the kids, and everything that wasn’t his job, because I thought he would appreciate me for removing that burden from him and would then relax more and work less. What really happened is that he worked even more because he had no other responsibilities. He did interact with the boys and as much of a mess as his own childhood was, that in itself is a triumph.

I may seek out some counseling. I had my own dreams along the way - a larger family, a God-centered marriage, a happy retirement with us traveling or doing enjoyable things - and these dreams have to be grieved and released. I cannot have any more kids and he would never be interested in fostering or adopting. He is more of an atheist than he is a Catholic so that dream must be given up (I know God can work miracles and I still pray for him, but I can’t hold out that kind of hope right now). And retirement for a workaholic? Anathema! At least he hasn’t cheated on me like his father did to his mother. I have to let go of all the hopes I had that somehow, I could be at least as important to him as his addiction is. That is never going to happen. He thinks I am the sick one because I want more intimacy and I cry when I talk about our married life.

All he could say the other night about our marriage was that he “stuck it out.” We’ve been married 22 years and I bore his sons and that’s what I get? I have done everything to make a happy home for us and our sons and he has “stuck it out?” Do you see what I mean?

Hugs to you, I know that must be very hard (my love language is “quality time”, so I feel very much the same way you do about hubby!). I do see what you mean, I just hate to see you hurt yourself more by risking your state of grace on top of all of that. I did not mean to imply that it was all on your side or anything.

I would focus on trying to love him as he is… easier said than done. I’ve had to let go of many of my romantic ideas, etc… as well in married life and try to focus on what I DO have, and be thankful for that and think of that when I get negative. My hubby is great, and even then it’s easy to get into a negative mode. and prayers.

 

[mybundlesofjoy]

For me, it seems as if there really is no intimacy in our marriage without sex. And when we do have sex, it feels as though it is my body he desires only, not my soul, spirit, personality and emotions. Some of our previous routines were sinful, which now gives me a great deal of guilt. I have confessed but since I can’t really explain why I no longer want to do those things (he is Catholic in name only and derides the Church quite a bit), we keep on doing them and then I have to confess again. He thinks I have become a frigid Catholic female, so another thing to blame on the Church. He has never been a physically affectionate person but it’s gotten worse over the years, he almost never spontaneously hugs me or just wants to cuddle. It always has to turn into sex, so I stopped asking for more contact b/c I don’t want to always have to go further.

Oh it’s just a big mess…!!! We were in counseling and we stopped going because we weren’t getting anywhere, the counselor was Christian but really didn’t know what to do to help us, I guess. We never brought up the sex thing except in veiled terms during a couple of our last few sessions…but it’s one of the more critical issues. At least for him - for me, I don’t care any more and mostly just want him to leave me alone. I honestly never feel that desire for sex that I used to. Never do. I love my husband and it hurts me a lot that we aren’t close, but really, we never have been. I’m his mistress, it’s his work that is his main interest.

I don’t mean to hijack this thread. I’ll have to quit now or it’s going to become me just complaining from here on out.

Have you explained to him that if he would respect your boundaries within what the church teaches, that you then would be interested and have a stronger sex drive, because women are really driven by emotion and it’s less physical… thus if you are comfortable with what you are doing, then you will be “freer” (and more often)? And then make it happen thus too? Perhaps a bit of incentive would help him to respect the church’s boundaries for lovemaking? Maybe the cuddling thing always turning into sex is simply because he desires you, and he finds you irresistible when he gets close to you. Don’t underestimate the men either… it’s easy not to understand them just as much as it for them to understand us! Heck, when I was dating hubby, all it took was me holding his hand to cause “issues”. LOL I would think that if you made love more often, that if you went and gave him a hug or held his hand or snuggled with him, etc… then he would be less inclined to ALWAYS turn it into a sexual thing. A man has his limits!!! You may just have to de-train him that every touch is a sensual thing. If you want the cuddling, go for it! Do it after you make love, and unless the man’s heart is as cold as ice, I would think he wouldn’t mind you sidling him up to you and running your fingers through his hair. I would hope to think that he would at least respond by holding you. And that would be an improvement for you as well, right?

 

[AnneTeresa]

For me, it seems as if there really is no intimacy in our marriage without sex. And when we do have sex, it feels as though it is my body he desires only, not my soul, spirit, personality and emotions. Some of our previous routines were sinful, which now gives me a great deal of guilt. I have confessed but since I can’t really explain why I no longer want to do those things (he is Catholic in name only and derides the Church quite a bit), we keep on doing them and then I have to confess again. He thinks I have become a frigid Catholic female, so another thing to blame on the Church. He has never been a physically affectionate person but it’s gotten worse over the years, he almost never spontaneously hugs me or just wants to cuddle. It always has to turn into sex, so I stopped asking for more contact b/c I don’t want to always have to go further.

Oh it’s just a big mess…!!! We were in counseling and we stopped going because we weren’t getting anywhere, the counselor was Christian but really didn’t know what to do to help us, I guess. We never brought up the sex thing except in veiled terms during a couple of our last few sessions…but it’s one of the more critical issues. At least for him - for me, I don’t care any more and mostly just want him to leave me alone. I honestly never feel that desire for sex that I used to. Never do. I love my husband and it hurts me a lot that we aren’t close, but really, we never have been. I’m his mistress, it’s his work that is his main interest.

I don’t mean to hijack this thread. I’ll have to quit now or it’s going to become me just complaining from here on out.

Julanne,
I have a very different opinion than some others have expressed. Just something to think about… I was in a marriage very similar to yours in some ways. Forced myself to have sex to “meet his needs.” A very wise Christian counselor told me once that I am not called to be his sex slave. Sex is just a physical act without emotional intimacy. Not that sometimes you don’t have sex just for the other person, but if it is is a pattern, and in your case it sounds like it is constant, then something is seriously wrong. No wonder you don’t want to have sex with your hb, you are being used. I would encourage you to get back into counseling. If he won’t go, go alone. I was where you were at years ago and counseling helped me a lot. Eventually my hb started coming with me and the issues were addressed. One thing you mentioned for instance, the hugs leading to sex, we learned how to hug and not always have it end in sex. Providing sex for your husband is not going to make those issuesgo away and would make it very difficult for you to “force” yourself to provide sex for him. You say you don’t care but you do really care, a lot. You deserve to be treated better and your emotions (inability to respond) show that there are issues that need to be addressed. If I am way off base, forgive me or just ignore this, but I thought I saw something like this in your posts that hinted of this attitude of being required to be a sex slave like I used to have. It came from kind of a warped idea of what it meant to be there for someone, and I had to learn that God did not really want me to keep letting myself be used.

 

[PaulGH]

Maybe the cuddling thing always turning into sex is simply because he desires you, and he finds you irresistible when he gets close to you. Don’t underestimate the men either… it’s easy not to understand them just as much as it for them to understand us! Heck, when I was dating hubby, all it took was me holding his hand to cause “issues”. LOL I would think that if you made love more often, that if you went and gave him a hug or held his hand or snuggled with him, etc… then he would be less inclined to ALWAYS turn it into a sexual thing. A man has his limits!!!

Obviously I don’t know all the details of the situation and the people involved, so I’m not trying to give advice one way or another. But I just want to say that from a man’s perspective, the above quote is SPOT ON.

 

[chaste_hubby]

I struggled with this issue for a long time. Its a very long story but to summarize - after a period of crisis where I was sure we would divorce because of my wifes refusal to have sex - now I have turned my marraige around. I have decided on unconditional love forever. First I vowed to my wife to live without sex as long as she doesn’t feel confortable with it. This has been such a fantastic experience we have now both taked a vow of chastity to live without sex for the rest of our lives. I have never felt closer to her in out 25 years of marraige. Its a struggle at times but all in all I feel fantastic.

 

[sailor28]

I know this was originally posted in 3/2011. IDavid, if you are still around I am wondering how things are going for you with NFP 2 + years out