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shelby2014
Guest
So I was just thinking today…what are the logical arguments for athiesm? Can anyone PROVE that God doesn’t exist? Atheists - how do you prove this?
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_Locke
Guest
First, I’m not sure if this topic is allowed on CAF 
I will answer this post, not because I am an atheist, but I love getting second post.
First of all, atheism is not a religion, ideology, or philosophy. Nor is it a belief system or world view. There is a subtle but important difference between “I do not believe God exists” and “I believe God does not exist”, the first being negative atheism and the second being positive atheism.
Furthermore I don’t think many atheists would say that beyond a doubt there is no God, because that takes a leap of faith, but rather express disbelief that a God exists.
That being said, here are a few good formal deductive arguments against (at least the Christian) God’s existence. (taking from the excellent site ebonmusings)
Argument from Divine Hiddenness
Assumption (1): God exists.
Assumption (1a): God desires that people be aware of his existence.
Assumption (1b): God desires that people worship him in specific ways.
Assumption (1c): God has the ability to make his presence obvious and explain clearly what he desires.
Premise (2): God’s presence is not obvious in the world.
Premise (3): Many people do not believe in God because of a lack of evidence.
Premise (4): Many people who do believe in God do not agree on what he desires, because of a lack of evidence.
Premise (5): For God to make his premise obvious and explain his desires would remedy both (3) and (4), without having any significant negative side effects.
Conclusion (6): If God exists, he would make his premise obvious in the world and explain what he desires. (from (1),(5))
Contradiction: But no such thing has happened. (from (2))
Conclusion (7): God does not exist. (from (6),(2))
The Problem of Evil
Assumption (1): God exists.
Assumption (1a): God is all-knowing.
Assumption (1b): God is all-powerful.
Assumption (1c): God is perfectly loving.
Assumption (1d): Any being that did not possess all three of the above properties would not be God.
Premise (2): Evil exists.
Premise (3): An all-knowing being would be aware of the existence of evil.
Premise (4): An all-powerful being would be able to eliminate evil.
Premise (5): A perfectly loving being would desire to eliminate evil.
Conclusion (6): Evil does not exist. (from (1),(3),(4),(5))
Contradiction: But evil does exist. (from (2))
Conclusion (7): There is no being that is all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly loving. (from (2),(3),(4),(5))
Conclusion (8): God does not exist. (from (7),(1d))
And before you easily “conquer” these arguments with the doctrine of free will, please read the Wikipedia article on special pleading.
I will answer this post, not because I am an atheist, but I love getting second post.
First of all, atheism is not a religion, ideology, or philosophy. Nor is it a belief system or world view. There is a subtle but important difference between “I do not believe God exists” and “I believe God does not exist”, the first being negative atheism and the second being positive atheism.
Furthermore I don’t think many atheists would say that beyond a doubt there is no God, because that takes a leap of faith, but rather express disbelief that a God exists.
That being said, here are a few good formal deductive arguments against (at least the Christian) God’s existence. (taking from the excellent site ebonmusings)
Argument from Divine Hiddenness
Assumption (1): God exists.
Assumption (1a): God desires that people be aware of his existence.
Assumption (1b): God desires that people worship him in specific ways.
Assumption (1c): God has the ability to make his presence obvious and explain clearly what he desires.
Premise (2): God’s presence is not obvious in the world.
Premise (3): Many people do not believe in God because of a lack of evidence.
Premise (4): Many people who do believe in God do not agree on what he desires, because of a lack of evidence.
Premise (5): For God to make his premise obvious and explain his desires would remedy both (3) and (4), without having any significant negative side effects.
Conclusion (6): If God exists, he would make his premise obvious in the world and explain what he desires. (from (1),(5))
Contradiction: But no such thing has happened. (from (2))
Conclusion (7): God does not exist. (from (6),(2))
The Problem of Evil
Assumption (1): God exists.
Assumption (1a): God is all-knowing.
Assumption (1b): God is all-powerful.
Assumption (1c): God is perfectly loving.
Assumption (1d): Any being that did not possess all three of the above properties would not be God.
Premise (2): Evil exists.
Premise (3): An all-knowing being would be aware of the existence of evil.
Premise (4): An all-powerful being would be able to eliminate evil.
Premise (5): A perfectly loving being would desire to eliminate evil.
Conclusion (6): Evil does not exist. (from (1),(3),(4),(5))
Contradiction: But evil does exist. (from (2))
Conclusion (7): There is no being that is all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfectly loving. (from (2),(3),(4),(5))
Conclusion (8): God does not exist. (from (7),(1d))
And before you easily “conquer” these arguments with the doctrine of free will, please read the Wikipedia article on special pleading.
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VetA
Guest
they are going to say “well, prove God exists,” you’ve maybe opened Pandora’s box with this one dude
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rwoehmke
Guest
Since atheists seem to be more “Johnny Come Latelys” than fhose who believe in God or gods isn’t it incumbent upon them to prove that God does not exist, i.e. prove a negative. 
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_Locke
Guest
The onus on proof is on the person affirming something, i.e. that God exists.Since atheists seem to be more “Johnny Come Latelys” than fhose who believe in God or gods isn’t it incumbent upon them to prove that God does not exist, i.e. prove a negative.
As for that “johnny” line, atheists have been around a lot longer than Christianity, mister. Might I point out that the early Christians were labeled atheists by non-Christians because of their disbelief in pagan gods.
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Marc_Anthony
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Just because somebody used the wrong word to describe somebody does not mean they were actually what that word was supposed to entail.
You really need to change your religion. You’re very clearly not Catholic.
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_Locke
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This is true, it was a bad example. What I meant was that atheism has existed as long as theism.
Woah! On what do you base that assessment? I’m not expressing my opinions, just facts. I challenge you to find one thing I’ve said not corroborated by Wikipedia or a little bit of philosophy. I believe in the Socratic method; presenting an opposing view to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas. It irks me when people ask questions just to reinforce their own world view. Regardless, my personal views are irrelevant to the topic of any thread, unless the thread is a poll on personal views.
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Marc_Anthony
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I can’t believe you’re using wikipedia to corroborate you. It’s not reliable, big mistake.
But besides that, you seem to side with the atheists on almost every thread. I too believe in the Socratic method, but if you don’t believe in the things people say to back up the Catholic point of view, you’re probably not Catholic. I mean, I’ve neverl, once, seen you look at a Catholic arguement and say, “Excellent post, I agree.” Except that, as a Catholic you should, you know, believe the Catholic view of the world. If you don’t, you’re not Catholic.
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_Locke
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Last post off-topic, if you want to chat you can message me
Besides which, as you well know, there are a whole spectrum of Catholic views, from liberal theologian and priest Hans Kung, who disagrees on issues like papal infallibility and contraception, to conservative Pope Benedict XVI, who promotes the Tridentine Mass and rejects rapprochement with the Protestant churches.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Marc Anthony, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
That’s a topic for another thread.
Well that’s just the sort of judgmental view that people find so off-putting. Here I am, a new member with less than 30 posts, and I’m being typed as non-Catholic? (Which has awfully large implications with the doctrine of hell and whatnot) If I didn’t know better I’d think you were misdirecting the thread with an ad hominem attack!
Besides which, as you well know, there are a whole spectrum of Catholic views, from liberal theologian and priest Hans Kung, who disagrees on issues like papal infallibility and contraception, to conservative Pope Benedict XVI, who promotes the Tridentine Mass and rejects rapprochement with the Protestant churches.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Marc Anthony, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
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Marc_Anthony
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Very well.
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Questionhaver
Guest
Ah yes, the old “there be no proof so there be no God” misconception. There’s just no end to this.
Pointing to Romans 8:24-25 usually doesn’t do much good either. People don’t want to believe, they want to know. That, I say, is the reason for atheism.
But if we knew, what would be left to believe and have faith in? What would be left for hope?
The problem I have with that argumentation is (5), that God, being benevolent, would like to dispose of evil entirely.
And there are a couple of things bothering me with that statement, beginning with the Holy Word:
[BIBLEDRB]Isaiah 45:7[/BIBLEDRB]
If God is Lord over all, it would be but logical to assume that He is Lord over the evil as well.
Let’s think about it for a moment. We were originally banished to Earth due to our failure.
Punishment that felt like Paradise would be kind of pointless, don’t you think?
Furthermore, it’s the evil that makes us appreciate the good. If you never felt pain, how can you be glad you don’t? How can you empathize with others?
If you never were sick, would you value it if nobody else was sick either?
Or don’t you rather appreciate your health because you know what could have happened, what still can happen?
And to come back to the actual statement: If there were no evil, what point would be in God’s being benevolent?
Critical enough for you? ^^
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Michael_Francis
Guest
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