Proof for praying to saints

[elizabeth08]

I am a Protestant but I’ve recently become interested in the Catholic faith. One of my concerns with Catholicism, though, is saints. I’ve sort of been taught that Cathlics worship saints, especially through prayer. I’ve talked to some of my Catholic friends about it and they say it isn’t worship, and that what they’re doing is intercessory prayer. what exactly is that? also, is there biblical proof that we should pray to saints?
I want to get a Catholic point of view on this, I don’t want to base all my opinions just on what Protestants say, because I know there is some bias there.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I am a Protestant but I’ve recently become interested in the Catholic faith. One of my concerns with Catholicism, though, is saints. I’ve sort of been taught that Cathlics worship saints, especially through prayer. I’ve talked to some of my Catholic friends about it and they say it isn’t worship, and that what they’re doing is intercessory prayer. what exactly is that? also, is there biblical proof that we should pray to saints?
I want to get a Catholic point of view on this, I don’t want to base all my opinions just on what Protestants say, because I know there is some bias there.

Well, the way that I see it, when I ask my family to join me in prayer, or when we’re all at Church joined in prayer, we’re doing exactly the same kind of prayer that we do when we pray with the saints. (Because of course, we know from Scripture that the dead in Christ are alive with Him in Heaven. They are as much a part of the body of Christ that we are on earth–even more so as they are united with Christ fully, as we are not.)

Now, the type of prayer that we most often offer is intercessory prayer; that is, we are asking God to help us in some way. While sometimes we can ask for ‘selfish things’, mostly when we ask God’s help, we’re asking Him to help us to follow Him better. To love Him more. To show us and tell us what we can do for Him; to warn us when we’re being ‘led into temptation’, etc.

Now on earth even the ‘best’ people are not perfect, right? They aren’t perfectly united to God. When they pray, they do the best they can. . .but the prayers aren’t perfect.

But in heaven, the saints are perfect. (Because they are united with God, who is perfect. That’s what will happen to all of us when we die in Christ and go to heaven–we will be joined with Him. We will be like Him. We will see Him as He is). So their prayers are perfect too. (and of course they’re going to pray in heaven too. Prayer is communication with God–not only will they not stop communicating once they’re in heaven, they’ll be able to communicate with God forever, unceasingly, and perfectly).

So when we pray to the saints, we are asking them to ‘paint the lily’ by adding their perfect prayer to our ‘not so perfect’ prayers because that will please God more, who tells us in Scripture that “where two or three are gathered in My Name, there am I in their midst” and that “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much”.

We are not praying to the saints in place of God, but in addition to our prayers, to add their prayers to **our **prayers but all the prayers are ultimately and only for God. The perfection of a saint’s prayers isn’t because the saint is ‘worthy’ in himself/herself, but because the saint is joined to God. Ultimately, the perfection is God’s.

I hope that helps.

 

[elizabeth08]

thank you very much, you have been very helpful!

 

[Todd_Easton]

St. Paul routinely asked the Christians to whom his letters were addressed to pray for him. So, the idea of asking other Christians to pray for you should not be a problem, whether those other Christians are in your own household, live next door, attend your neighborhood church, live across the country, or live on the other side of the world, whether you ask them face-to-face, around the corner in the next room, over the telephone, in a letter or email. Catholics simply take this idea one step further and also ask Christians in heaven (the saints) to pray for them. Like the intercession of other Christians on earth, the intercession of Christians in heaven (the saints) is Christian intercession and as such does not bypass Christ but, on the contrary, is made through Christ, with Christ, and in Christ.

To the absurd idea that Catholics worship saints, this is what some early Catholics once said, “…it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God we adore; but the martyrs [the saints], as disciples of and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards our King and Master [Jesus Christ], of whom may we also be made companions and fellow-disciples!” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, chap. 17, written about A.D. 155)

 

[thistle]

I am a Protestant but I’ve recently become interested in the Catholic faith. One of my concerns with Catholicism, though, is saints. I’ve sort of been taught that Cathlics worship saints, especially through prayer. I’ve talked to some of my Catholic friends about it and they say it isn’t worship, and that what they’re doing is intercessory prayer. what exactly is that? also, is there biblical proof that we should pray to saints?
I want to get a Catholic point of view on this, I don’t want to base all my opinions just on what Protestants say, because I know there is some bias there.

scripturecatholic.com/saints.html
catholic.com/library/praying_to_the_saints.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312frs.asp

 

[HamtramckSteve]

I would suggest picking up the book, “Any Friend of God’s Is a Friend of Mine” by Patrick Madrid. It’s probably the easiest book I’ve found to jump into the subject and get your bearings.

I picked it up for my 12 year-old, because my sister-in-law can be anti-Catholic and challenging, so I wanted him to have simple tools to learn to defend his beliefs.

 

[japhy]

I’ve sort of been taught that Cathlics worship saints, especially through prayer. I’ve talked to some of my Catholic friends about it and they say it isn’t worship, and that what they’re doing is intercessory prayer. what exactly is that?

Hello, Elizabeth. A couple months ago, I had a conversation with a member of the “Church of Christ” about this very issue. First, you must distinguish between the verbs “to pray” and “to worship”. They are two very different things. The essence of “to pray” means “to ask”. We do not worship the saints – we worship God alone – but we do speak to them in prayer.

Intercessory prayer, plain and simple, is prayer on behalf of another person. When we do not know how to pray as we ought, “the Spirit himself intercedes for us” (Rom. 8:26). Jesus Christ himself intercedes for us at the right hand of the Father. (cf. Rom. 8:34) And Paul tells Timothy to offer “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” for all men. (1 Tim 2:1) We ask our living brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us. Why not ask those who are now with the Lord in heaven to do so as well?

also, is there biblical proof that we should pray to saints? I want to get a Catholic point of view on this…

You can read my explanation here. Here’s the quick summary:

1. Those who have died in Christ are not separated from him. (cf. Rom. 8:35-39)
2. Thus, they are not separated from the Body of Christ, which is the Church. (cf. Eph. 5:23; Col. 1:18)
3. If we can ask our physically living brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us, we can ask our spiritually living (though, in the eyes of the world, physically dead) brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for us as well.
4. Those who have died and are with the Lord in spirit are more righteous than us (being perfected in heaven), and “the prayer of a righteous man has great power” (James 5:16).
5. Thus, it is wise for us to ask the saints in heaven to pray on our behalf.

Praying to the saints is about two things, primarily: 1) recognizing that the Body of Christ is not just Christians living on earth, but includes those who are with the Lord (the Catholic Church calls this the “communion of saints”), and 2) asking them to pray for us, for our intentions, to ask favors of the Lord, etc.

 

[rocketrob]

Elizabeth,
Ten years ago, I made the journey that you are now contemplating. Regarding prayer ‘to’ the Saints, here’s an answer that I just posted on another thread the other night:

The Saints, of which Mary is the chief example, are asked for intercessory prayer on our, or others’, behalf. They are not offered prayer of worship. Since we know that the Saints live on in heaven, by virtue of Christ’s sacrifice, how much better can they offer intercessory prayer on our behalf than the living, who are also routinely asked for such prayer. This concept is completely supported by Scripture, even in 1 Timothy, Chapter 2. While verse 5 is often quoted from this chapter as clarifying Christ’s unique role, the preceding four verses are often ignored:

I Tim 2
1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus:

And from Revelation:

5:8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

8:3 And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God.

For further information on Catholic beliefs, you might want to read “Catholic and Christian” by Alan Schreck: amazon.com/Catholic-Christian-Explanation-Commonly-Misunderstood/dp/0867165995/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225825321&sr=8-1

Its a concise, straightforward non-argumentative explanation of Catholic beliefs, many of which are misunderstood, especially by Protestants.

Sincerely,
rocketrob

 

[elizabeth08]

thank you all very much! you have helped me understand a lot better…I guess I always equated prayer with worship, but I can see there is a difference. Also, I have never thought of it like asking my friends and family to pray for me…and it makes more sense to me now!
thanks again

 

[sandusky]

I am a Protestant but I’ve recently become interested in the Catholic faith. One of my concerns with Catholicism, though, is saints. I’ve sort of been taught that Cathlics worship saints, especially through prayer. I’ve talked to some of my Catholic friends about it and they say it isn’t worship, and that what they’re doing is intercessory prayer. what exactly is that? also, is there biblical proof that we should pray to saints?
I want to get a Catholic point of view on this, I don’t want to base all my opinions just on what Protestants say, because I know there is some bias there.

By the Lord’s instruction:**Matthew 6:6, 9

“But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door
and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

"Pray, then, in THIS way: ‘Our Father…**You’ll run into a lot of bias against the Lord’s words here, Elizabeth; so do with it what you will.

 

[D_M]

Hi,

‘Prayer’ or ‘petition’ in the English language used to be words in common speech. If a person wrote a letter to the governor-general in the 19th century Upper Canada asking for a land grant, they would say that they prayed or petitioned to His Excellency.

Example: “30th May 1821 - William Allen a Man of Color praying for a grant of Land on Wilberforce Street – Granted one hundred Acres - He therefore prays your excellency In council will please take his case in consideration – Once your Petitioner as in duty bound will ever Pray”

They used these words, not because they were worshipping the British administration, but because those words in their true traditional usage simply mean making a request.

This is the sense that catholics ‘pray’ or make request of the saints or angels to help them. They are to follow God, and no other, (and if we did follow them apart from God, we would indeed be committing idolatry).

I’ll tell you truth though, that I am a catholic and I never make any prayers or requests at all to the saints or angels…

This is how I pray the hail mary in the rosary:

“Lord, we hail mary who is full of grace, and you are with her. Blessed is she among women, and blessed are you the fruit of her womb. Lord, send your holy mary to pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen”

← now I think no one could possibly even accuse me of idolatry… unless they think that praying to Jesus is idolatry

I changed all of the other saints and angels prayers in that same way, in that I pray to God to send the saint or angel, and not to them themselves.

This is my example in scripture:

Maccabbees 15:22-24 And he called upon him in these words: “O Lord, thou didst send thy angel in the time of Hezekiah king of Judea, and he slew fully a hundred and eighty-five thousand in the camp of Sennacherib. So now, O Sovereign of the heavens, send a good angel to carry terror and trembling before us. By the might of thy arm may these blasphemers who come against thy holy people be struck down.” With these words he ended his prayer

← He prayed to God to send the angel, who was His servant, for their aid.

It is not necessary to make intercessory requests if you are catholic.

God Bless,

 

[gookykookypig]

Hi elizabeth08!

We catholics do not only approach God, we also approach the saints, those righteous people of God in heaven. They can help, too.

**"But you have come **to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,

“to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect”
(Hebrews 12:22-23, underscoring is mine)

 

[sandusky]

Hi,

’Prayer’ or ‘petition’ in the English language used to be words in common speech. If a person wrote a letter to the governor-general in the 19th century Upper Canada asking for a land grant, they would say that they prayed or petitioned to His Excellency.

Example: “30th May 1821 - William Allen a Man of Color praying for a grant of Land on Wilberforce Street – Granted one hundred Acres - He therefore prays your excellency In council will please take his case in consideration – Once your Petitioner as in duty bound will ever Pray”

They used these words, not because they were worshipping the British administration, but because those words in their true traditional usage simply mean making a request.

This is the sense that catholics ‘pray’ or make request of the saints or angels to help them. They are to follow God, and no other, (and if we did follow them apart from God, we would indeed be committing idolatry).

That’s anachronism.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

freesmileys.org/smileys/forum/nothingtoadd.gif

freesmileys.org/smileys/bounce016.gif http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/bounce016.gif

 

[Realcatholicgk]

That’s anachronism.

**
Well this isn’t sweetheart!

Christianity, Main articles:
Prayer in Christianity and Christian Worship

**Christian prayers are very varied. They can be completely spontaneous, or read entirely from a text, like the Anglican Book of Common Prayer. Probably the most common and universal prayer among Christians is the Lord’s Prayer, which according to the gospel accounts is how Jesus taught his disciples to pray. Some Protestant denominations choose not to recite the Lord’s Prayer or other rote prayers.

Christians pray to God (without specifying a person of the Trinity); or to the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit (or some combination of them). **

**Some Christians (e.g., Catholics, Orthodox) will also ask the righteous in heaven and “in Christ,” such as Virgin Mary or other saints to intercede by praying on their behalf (intercession of saints). ****

Other formulaic closures include “through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever,” and “in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

It is customary among Protestants to end prayers with “In Jesus’ name, Amen” or “In the name of Christ, Amen”[16] However, the most commonly used closure in Christianity is simply “Amen” (from a Hebrew adverb used as a statement of affirmation or agreement, usually translated as so be it).**

There is also the form of prayer called hesychast which is a repetitious type of prayer for the purpose of meditation. In the Western or Latin Rite of Catholic Church, probably the most common is the Rosary; In the Eastern Church (the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church), the Jesus Prayer.
Roman Catholic tradition includes specific prayers and devotions as acts of reparation which do not involve a petition for a living or deceased beneficiary, but aim to repair the sins of others, e.g. for the repair of the sin of blasphemy performed by others.

Well, is that New enough for you? freesmileys.org/smileys/angry021.gif

Prayer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer
**

 

[sandusky]

**
Well this isn’t sweetheart! **

Christianity, Main articles:
Prayer in Christianity and Christian Worship

**Christian prayers are very varied. They can be completely spontaneous, or read entirely from a text, like the Anglican Book of Common Prayer. Probably the most common and universal prayer among Christians is the Lord’s Prayer, which according to the gospel accounts is how Jesus taught his disciples to pray. Some Protestant denominations choose not to recite the Lord’s Prayer or other rote prayers.

Christians pray to God (without specifying a person of the Trinity); or to the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit (or some combination of them). **

**Some Christians (e.g., Catholics, Orthodox) will also ask the righteous in heaven and “in Christ,” such as Virgin Mary or other saints to intercede by praying on their behalf (intercession of saints). ****

Other formulaic closures include “through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever,” and “in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”

It is customary among Protestants to end prayers with “In Jesus’ name, Amen” or “In the name of Christ, Amen”[16] However, the most commonly used closure in Christianity is simply “Amen” (from a Hebrew adverb used as a statement of affirmation or agreement, usually translated as so be it).**

There is also the form of prayer called hesychast which is a repetitious type of prayer for the purpose of meditation. In the Western or Latin Rite of Catholic Church, probably the most common is the Rosary; In the Eastern Church (the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church), the Jesus Prayer.
Roman Catholic tradition includes specific prayers and devotions as acts of reparation which do not involve a petition for a living or deceased beneficiary, but aim to repair the sins of others, e.g. for the repair of the sin of blasphemy performed by others.

Well, is that New enough for you? freesmileys.org/smileys/angry021.gif

Prayer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer

That says it all—theological approval via the description and “infallible authority” of Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (WOW).

Think about it, Elizabeth.

 

[gookykookypig]

Yes, Elizabeth, I agree with sandusky above. You can trust and refer to secular resources, because St Paul had suggested that we must “test all things and hold fast to what is good” (c.f. 1 Thessalonians 5:21).

St Paul had benefited from secular resources, too, like this one:

“For in Him we live and move and exist, as even
some of your own poets have said, `For we
also are His children.’”
(Acts 17:28, emphasis mine)

Thanks, Wikipedia.org

 

[sandusky]

By the Lord’s instruction:Matthew 6:6, 9

“But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door
and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

"Pray, then, in THIS way: ‘Our Father…You’ll run into a lot of bias against the Lord’s words here, Elizabeth; so do with it what you will.

.

.

.

 

[josethekke]

St. Paul routinely asked the Christians to whom his letters were addressed to pray for him. So, the idea of asking other Christians to pray for you should not be a problem, whether those other Christians are in your own household, live next door, attend your neighborhood church, live across the country, or live on the other side of the world, whether you ask them face-to-face, around the corner in the next room, over the telephone, in a letter or email. Catholics simply take this idea one step further and also ask Christians in heaven (the saints) to pray for them. Like the intercession of other Christians on earth, theof Christians in heaven (the saints) is Christian intercession and as such does not bypass Christ but, on the contrary, is made through Christ, with Christ, and in Christ.

To the absurd idea that Catholics worship saints, this is what some early Catholics once said, “…it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God we adore; but the martyrs [the saints], as disciples of and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards our King and Master [Jesus Christ], of whom may we also be made companions and fellow-disciples!” (The Martyrdom of Polycarp, chap. 17, written about A.D. 155)

I agree with you I also have the same doubt previosly but now I understood the power of praying our hevenly father through saints .In our area all big fesivals in saints name so nonn catholics mostly do not understand intercession and prayer

 

[Ruthie]

Sandusky doesn’t understand that we Catholics use lots of “anachronisms,” because these words have not changed meaning in the Church the way they have in the secular world.

For example, “Charity” means more to us than giving to or working for an entity that does good in the world. To us, it is still the love Jesus told us to have for our neighbor. It is still the English translation of agape.

God bless all of us,

Ruthie