Proof for the Bible

[Sister_Amy]

There is no proof or way to prove it - it is purely a matter of faith. Also, the bible isn’t an idol to be worshiped, it is a “lens” - a thing to help us see God more clearly.

Thanks for answering my post.

I just want to know, then, why do you believe in it? Just because you do?

 

[Sister_Amy]

To me the proof of the Bible is not found within the Bible, or for that matter by comparing the Bible with actual history. Rather, I look at the fruits that it has produced. Likewise, I look at the fruits of Islam.

So can Christianity gather billions of people to all pray in the same direction, the same way? Can Christianity gather people at 4am, filling up mosques, just to pray in humility before God listening to the Qur’an, like Muslims do on the 27th night of Ramadan? Can Christianity get millions of people to travel every year to worship God at a house built by Abraham?

If we look at the first 250 years of Christianity, it is one of persecution.

Muslims were persecuted at first, too. They had to migrate to escape.

Christians generally had to remain in hiding, and many ultimately died their faith.

The first martyr in Islam was a woman–stabbed in the abdomen while being tortured for not recanting on her Islam.

This is especially true of Paul and the Apostles. Anyone of them could have lived to a ripe old age if they simply had kept their mouths shut; yet they soldiered on with no promise of Earthly reward, rather the promise that they most likely would die for their belief.

This was the case for many of the Muslims who were called to fight to protect the Islamic state. They died knowing that either God would grant them victory, or they would find victory in heaven by dying a martyr.

God granted the Muslims success–and they “conquered” Mecca without any blood being shed–the city surrendered. And no longer was the sacred house which was built by Abraham used in the worship of idols–which God had expressly forbidden.

 

[Sister_Amy]

How about all of the fulfilled Bible prophecies?

Hi Holly, and thanks for answering my question. But I have one for you–how about all the fulfilled Qur’an prophecies? For the Qur’an made prophecies too, prophecies which were fulfilled.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hello Sister Amy,

“Proof” of the bible and Christianity for me is the fact that Jesus’ disciples, who had nothing on this earth to gain, went forth with their assignments knowing they would be martyred. The first bishops of Rome (and elsewhere) were also martyred.

Hi Mark, and thanks for answering my post.

The Companions of Muhammad also had nothing on earth to gain for converting. Many were tortured for their beliefs, and they migrated to Abyssinia (A Christian kingdom I should add) to escape the persecution they faced in Mecca. When the Muslims migrated to Medina (a Jewish city) they then faced war with the people in Mecca–and they fought knowing that if they were not granted victory on earth, they would find it in heaven by being martyred. The last 3 of the first 4 Islamic rulers were all murdered! They certainly did not take these positions for worldly gain.

Even Muhammad was promised by the people of Mecca that they would give him rule of the city if he would only acknowledge their idols! And he refused to bow to the idol worship, even for power.

So using persecution of early Christians is not a valid reason for the Bible–unless it is equally valid for the Qur’an, because early Muslims were persecuted for their beliefs as well.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hi Sister Amy,

I agree with the above. Prophecy is our proof that the Bible is divinely inspired.

I agree that the Qur’an was revealed to us by Muhammed. Maybe the Qur’an is intact from the original. But none of that is a match to fulfilled prophecy. The lack of prophecy would have to be the main reason why we can’t accept the Qur’an to be divinely inspired.

Muhammad is in fact the fulfillment of an OT prophecy. The Qur’an includes many other prophecies–which were fulfilled!! So this is not a reason to accept the Bible but not the Qur’an.

So you can now accept the Qur’an to be divinely inspired, because it contains prophecies which were fulfilled.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Agree!
Its nice to see things dont change here.

I replied to Mark’s post. Muslims were also persecuted for their beliefs in Mecca, and so they moved and Islam was able to spread. So people being persecuted for their beliefs means they are correct, that means Muslims have just as much claim to truth as Christians.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… The Qur’an has prophecies which have been fulfilled as well…

Hi Holly, and thanks for answering my question. But I have one for you–how about all the fulfilled Qur’an prophecies? For the Qur’an made prophecies too, prophecies which were fulfilled.

Muhammad is in fact the fulfillment of an OT prophecy. The Qur’an includes many other prophecies–which were fulfilled!! So this is not a reason to accept the Bible but not the Qur’an.

So you can now accept the Qur’an to be divinely inspired, because it contains prophecies which were fulfilled.

Hi again Sister Amy,

Last year, we discussed Islamic prophecies on a different thread. It wasn’t convincing then, and it’s not convincing now. But good luck to you and your faith. And I hope you understand why we consider the Bible to be the only divinely inspired book, even though - I accept - you don’t agree with us.

 

[NDfan]

Many members of this forum have criticized the Qur’an saying that there is no proof of its authenticity. No proof that God revealed it through Gabriel, no proof Gabriel delivered it to Muhammad, no proof Muhammad was telling the truth, no proof that the Qur’an has been preserved.

I am therefore curious…

What sort of “proof” is enough to make a person believe in the Bible?

OK Sister Amy I’ll give you plenty of stats that may help.

As far as the Bible goes there are over 27,000 manuscripts of the New Testament alone. When all manuscripts are overlayed for textual differences there are a total of 2000. And these are either singular word differences or punctuation differences that have no effect on the meaning. The earliest manuscript we have is a parchment of the gospel of Mark which has been dated to 42AD just about 9 years after the death of Jesus.

There is no other literary work in the world that has as many copies of manuscripts as the Bible does. The next closest in second place is Homer’s The Iliad with only 643 manuscripts that still survive. Yet literary experts have no problem testifying that they represent the originals. The originals were written in 800BC and the earliest copy on record is dated to 400BC. The Bible enjoys a time gap that is much smaller with the maximum time being around 200 years after the originals with many manuscripts dating back further and some even much less than 100 years. Given the textual variances being so negligible the accuracy and integrity cannot be challenged.

Aside from the numerous manuscripts we have are the geographic distribution of the manuscripts. We’re talking from all over the globe and still the textual differences are so negligible. The other point to consider is the numerous authors that make up the Bible as a whole yet the consistency of the message is undisturbed. The numerous quotes that are given in the New Testament that reference the Old Testament match perfectly. If one were to count up the number of prophecies given in the OT regarding the messiah, there can be little doubt that Jesus fits perfectly.

The problem with the Quran is similar to the issue the Mormans face. You have one guy who claims to have received this literary work from an Angel. Yet in the case of the golden tablets of the Mormans they have never been found and neither has the original Quran. So we have to take Muhammed’s and Jopseph Smith’s word for it. Sorry but I find it hard to believe one person when the Bible has so many authors that testify to the same thing which Muslims try to deny. It doesn’t hold water and it never will. Additionally we have writings from early church fathers that walked with disciples who were trained by the Apostles themselves. I think Christianity has more then enough proof with the Bible.

PEACE

 

[Sister_Amy]

OK Sister Amy I’ll give you plenty of stats that may help.

As far as the Bible goes there are over 27,000 manuscripts of the New Testament alone. When all manuscripts are overlayed for textual differences there are a total of 2000. And these are either singular word differences or punctuation differences that have no effect on the meaning. The earliest manuscript we have is a parchment of the gospel of Mark which has been dated to 42AD just about 9 years after the death of Jesus.

There is no other literary work in the world that has as many copies of manuscripts as the Bible does. The next closest in second place is Homer’s The Iliad with only 643 manuscripts that still survive. Yet literary experts have no problem testifying that they represent the originals. The originals were written in 800BC and the earliest copy on record is dated to 400BC. The Bible enjoys a time gap that is much smaller with the maximum time being around 200 years after the originals with many manuscripts dating back further and some even much less than 100 years. Given the textual variances being so negligible the accuracy and integrity cannot be challenged.

Aside from the numerous manuscripts we have are the geographic distribution of the manuscripts. We’re talking from all over the globe and still the textual differences are so negligible. The other point to consider is the numerous authors that make up the Bible as a whole yet the consistency of the message is undisturbed. The numerous quotes that are given in the New Testament that reference the Old Testament match perfectly. If one were to count up the number of prophecies given in the OT regarding the messiah, there can be little doubt that Jesus fits perfectly.

The problem with the Quran is similar to the issue the Mormans face. You have one guy who claims to have received this literary work from an Angel. Yet in the case of the golden tablets of the Mormans they have never been found and neither has the original Quran. So we have to take Muhammed’s and Jopseph Smith’s word for it. Sorry but I find it hard to believe one person when the Bible has so many authors that testify to the same thing which Muslims try to deny. It doesn’t hold water and it never will. Additionally we have writings from early church fathers that walked with disciples who were trained by the Apostles themselves. I think Christianity has more then enough proof with the Bible.

PEACE

This was an interesting post–in fact I’ve not heard of any manuscripts dating back so far. So you have a fragment of Mark… and that confirms the rest for you? The fact that quotes in the NT match the OT is hardly surprising given the fact that NT writers had the OT available to them. Whereas to find the same message in the Qur’an when no OT or NT was available in Arabic, the fact that an illiterate man can repeat the message is quite an astonishment.

You see, Muslims believe that all those prophets in the OT came with the same message in the first place. In fact, the Qur’an CONFIRMS that message, and doesn’t refute it. But while you do not find OT prophets for the most part preaching apostolic tradition and trinity and sacraments, you do find them insisting on prayer, charity, humility before God and repentance–just like Muhammad preached.

Please, by the way, feel free to answer my charge about the last passage in Mark, which does not exist in the earliest known manuscripts.

But on the other hand, the claim of the Muslims is not in the slightest at all like the claim of the Mormons. The “original” Qur’an exists today–the imam at my masjid has it. Part of the truth of the message of the Qur’an is that it came before! That it is the same message all the prophets taught. And also that it has been entirely preserved. And I’m not even telling a little joke, either. The Qur’an in its entirety has been preserved in the hearts of the Muslims, memorized exactly today as it was then. So the original Qur’an exists with Muslims all over the world who have memorized the exact same recitation as was revealed to Muhammad, by various chains and various teachers–all identical.

 

[mchale]

So can Christianity gather billions of people to all pray in the same direction, the same way? Can Christianity gather people at 4am, filling up mosques, just to pray in humility before God listening to the Qur’an, like Muslims do on the 27th night of Ramadan? Can Christianity get millions of people to travel every year to worship God at a house built by Abraham?

Why would Christianity want to gather people in a mosque to listen to the Qur’an? Certainly millions of Christians attend services every week and millions more attend Christmas and Easter Services. And certainly millions of people every year make pilgramages to Rome, Lourdes, Jerusalem, etc.

As for praying the same direction; well Jesus taught us that it is not where we worship, but what is in our hearts when we worship that is what matters.

Muslims were persecuted at first, too. They had to migrate to escape.

There is a huge difference between the persecution that the first muslims experienced and what the Christians experienced. By the time of Muhammed’s death Islam had already conquored most of the Arabia. Certainly within 50 years of its founding, Islam as a whole could be considered relatively safe from persecution. Fifty years after the death of Christ, the persecutions of Christians were just starting.

The first martyr in Islam was a woman–stabbed in the abdomen while being tortured for not recanting on her Islam.

I am not denying that Islam had martyrs, however, the level of persecution that Islam experienced simply cannot compare to the persecution of Christians prior to the reign of Constantine.

This was the case for many of the Muslims who were called to fight to protect the Islamic state. They died knowing that either God would grant them victory, or they would find victory in heaven by dying a martyr.

With respect, many Muslim “Martyrs” died in wars of conquest. That is not the same as “protecting” the Islamic state.

–
Bill

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… You see, Muslims believe that all those prophets in the OT came with the same message in the first place. In fact, the Qur’an CONFIRMS that message, and doesn’t refute it. But while you do not find OT prophets for the most part preaching apostolic tradition and trinity and sacraments, you do find them insisting on prayer, charity, humility before God and repentance–just like Muhammad preached…

I agree with you regarding “prayer, charity, humility before God and repentance”.

Obviously, christians see the OT prophets telling us about the virgin birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus. This is called prophecy. I understand that you do not accept this, and for the obvious reason - the OT prophecies and the Qur’an contradict each other. We can’t believe both; It’s one or the other (or neither ).

… The “original” Qur’an exists today–the imam at my masjid has it. Part of the truth of the message of the Qur’an is that it came before! That it is the same message all the prophets taught. And also that it has been entirely preserved. And I’m not even telling a little joke, either. The Qur’an in its entirety has been preserved in the hearts of the Muslims, memorized exactly today as it was then. So the original Qur’an exists with Muslims all over the world who have memorized the exact same recitation as was revealed to Muhammad, by various chains and various teachers–all identical.

I hope you can respect that we have our disagreements about that.

 

[RevDrNorth]

Many members of this forum have criticized the Qur’an saying that there is no proof of its authenticity. No proof that God revealed it through Gabriel, no proof Gabriel delivered it to Muhammad, no proof Muhammad was telling the truth, no proof that the Qur’an has been preserved.

I am therefore curious…

What sort of “proof” is enough to make a person believe in the Bible?

Get Josh McDowell’s two books (Evidence that Demands a Verdict I and II). Too much to go into. The statistical odds of the prophecies of the bible coming true (as they have repeatedly) are astronomical. No seer (etc) has EVER come close. The bible is coherent in spite of being written by different authors over centuries. Even without original manuscripts it could be pieced together from quotes by church fathers and so on. The bible has time and again proven accurate when archeologists and others have claimed it was inaccurate. Cities turn up where there should have been none (according to secular archeologists). Oooops. Writing turns up during a period the bible said it existed (and experts said it did not). Ooops. And on and on and on.

See the Book I mentioned for details. This is why Josh McDowell gets irritated with Christians who say they know the bible is true based on faith. Actually, as he points out, it is true based on FACTS.

I respect the rights of others to believe differently and worship God as they please or not (as long as no harm is done). We MUST be respectful. However, the God of the Bible is the true God and the Bible is the only Word of God. The reality of that rests on solid evidence.

That does not even get into the millions of lives made better because of Christ (from addicts to you name it). Yes I know there have been bad things done in His name but those do not correspond to biblical conduct. Also, vast education systems, hospitals, human rights and so on.

 

[BeeSweet]

Before you two take this thread disastrously off-topic… I’d like to wait for all the people who have spent the last week attacking me/Islam/Qur’an/Shari’ah to go on and prove the superiority of the Bible. Or at least try.

Well, I don’t count myself as someone who in the past week has been attacking you (and I hope you don’t count me as such either ), but I’d like to give it a try to explain why the Bible is superior, I assume you mean to the Qur’an. The proof for this in my opinion can be found when comparing similar elements of the two books. The Qur’an is lacking in my opinion as compared to the same stories in the Bible, and it actually means very little in comparison without the Bible as it’s support (therefore making it in reality inferior to the Bible). There is so little character development in the Qur’an, so much of it seems to assume the reader and/or those listening, already knows the stories and characters. How would people already know of Adam, Noah, Abraham, et al… unless they had been already told of them in the Bible?

I will try my best here to give examples from both the Bible and the Qur’an to explain what I mean. I have not read all of the Qur’an, and in fact I may not even have a very good translation, so feel welcome and encouraged to correct me.

Adam
Creation of Man in the Qur’an:

Surah II
30 And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a vicegerent, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness" He said: Surely I know what you do not know.
31 And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.
35 And We said: O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the garden and eat from it a plenteous (food) wherever you wish and do not approach this tree, for then you will be of the unjust.
Surah XV
28 And when your Lord said to the angels: Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape.
29 So when I have made him complete and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down making obeisance to him.

(I’m leaving out other references to the creation of Adam in the Qur’an, because they seem in my opinion to focus more on the fall of the angels and the emergence of satan).

Creation of Man in the Bible:

Gen 1: 26-30
Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground.” God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.God blessed them, saying: “Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that move on the earth.”
Gen 2: 7, 15-24
the LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and so man became a living being.
The LORD God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it. The LORD God gave man this order: “You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden except the tree of knowledge of good and bad. From that tree you shall not eat; the moment you eat from it you are surely doomed to die.” The LORD God said: “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a suitable partner for him.” So the LORD God formed out of the ground various wild animals and various birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call them; whatever the man called each of them would be its name. The man gave names to all the cattle, all the birds of the air, and all the wild animals; but none proved to be the suitable partner for the man. So the LORD God cast a deep sleep on the man, and while he was asleep, he took out one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. The LORD God then built up into a woman the rib that he had taken from the man. When he brought her to the man, the man said: “This one, at last, is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; This one shall be called ‘woman,’ for out of ‘her man’ this one has been taken.” That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.

I hope to revisit these examples of character development later, since I must rush off to bed now. But before I leave I wanted to touch on something I find extremely telling about the difference between the two books, that is the opening passages of each:

Surah I
1 In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
2 All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
3 The Beneficent, the Merciful.
4 Master of the Day of Judgment.
5 Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
6 Keep us on the right path.
7 The path of those upon whom Thou hast brought favors, Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

The above is undoubtedly a beautiful statement of faith, but it goes on to say:

Surah II
1 Alif Lm Mim.
2 This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
3 Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
4 And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
5 These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.
6 Surely those who disbelieve it being alike to them whether you warn them or do not warn them, will not believe.
7 Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
8 And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and and they are not all believers.
9 They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive.
10 There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.

Opening passage of the Bible

Genesis 1: 1-5
In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth,
the earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the abyss, while a mighty wind swept over the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw how good the light was. God then separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” Thus evening came, and morning followed–the first day.

Now, compare these two. Why is the Qur’an so quick to start judging people? Not even a single page passes of the Qur’an (and I’m looking at a small paperback version) before accusations of people being liars and deceivers are being made. It begins with a statement of faith, goes on to say it is without doubt, which I assume means without error. Then not barely a breath passes before it starts telling the reader the unbelievers will be punished, and unbelievers “desire to deceive Allah and those who believe”, and “there is a disease in their hearts”, and furthermore that God increases the unbeliever’s “disease” and that they are liars. The reader hasn’t even been told a single thing to believe yet, other than a thin description of God and the importance of prayer. This example illustrates two things: 1 some form of belief is presupposed, and 2 the God presented in the Qur’an is first a judge, not a creator. The Bible displays it’s superiority to the Qur’an in that it starts at the beginning.

I hope and pray that I have not caused any offense by anything I’ve said above. If any of what I have extracted from the Qur’an is not a true translation, please correct me. I sincerely appreciate your participation in this dialog!

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hi again Sister Amy,

Last year, we discussed Islamic prophecies on a different thread. It wasn’t convincing then, and it’s not convincing now. But good luck to you and your faith. And I hope you understand why we consider the Bible to be the only divinely inspired book, even though - I accept - you don’t agree with us.

I consulted your thread, I did. And found it to be deficient. No wonder you didn’t find it ‘convincing.’ Why do you wish me good luck? Do you believe in luck?

And it is true that I don’t agree with you about only the Bible being inspired–or even that all of the Bible has been. But I think I am due the readership at least some discussion of prophecy from an adequate Islamic perspective, which was certainly lacking in the aforementioned thread. Especially as so many Catholics here are under the impression that the Bible contains prophecies, while the Qur’an does not.

For examples I will try to use only the Qur’an, but there are even prophecies in authentic hadith which do not appear in the Qur’an. But starting with the Qur’an–and I need to mention that when a verse was revealed, we also (in many cases) have accounts regarding the situation prior to the revelation. The Qur’an you see was revealed over a period of 23 years–gradually, in pieces.

One example is when the Muslims went to Mecca (from Medina) to make a pilgrimage, and the Meccans prevented them from it. A treaty was signed there, and God revealed a verse telling the Muslims that they would make pilgrimage! And they did, two years later.

Another example is the prophecy about Rome. You see, the Persians defeated the Romans by taking Jerusalem in 614 and by 615 the Muslims were under such persecution and torture that some had migrated to a Christian community elsewhere. The Qur’an then makes the prophecy saying that the Roman empire had fallen, but that in a few years (3-10) they will gain victory even after this defeat. It was a shocking prophecy at the time–nobody really thought it possible. But to make it even more shocking, the Qur’an also predicted that the Muslims (who had just had to flee under the face of severe treatment in Mecca) would also have victory! But sure enough, the Prophet migrated to Medina in 622 and Heraclius by 623 was launching a counter attack, which proved to be immensely successful.

I did not find any of this information in that other thread, so you do me an injustice now if you do not read it.

Anyway–there is no way that Muhammad could have known that these things would happen (and in the time frame!) and nearly everyone doubted it. Nobody really believed at that time that the Byzantine Empire could recover from its repeated losses to Persia.

 

[txsoldier94]

Wow…BeeSweet…excellent post

What can I add to that?

The problem that one encounters in comparing the Bible and the Koran is one of purpose.

The Koran is Islam…simplistic, but true, for Islam cannot be without the Koran. It is textbook/law book, covering everything.

The Bible is not Christianity. Christians can be Christian without knowing a single passage of the Bible. The Bible is a guide…as a PP said, it is a lens to help us see God more clearly…but Christianity existed for nearly 400 years without the Bible, and the beliefs and doctrines and message have been clearly preserved and passed down through the Apostles and their successors until the present day.

You ask if the Bible can get millions of people to bow simultaneously in the same direction for prayer. Short answer, no. And it would not, for God does not want automatons. He wants people that can use the gifts that He has bestowed upon them, of their OWN free-will to serve His purposes. God cares not where we face, or what words we use to praise Him. God does not care what time of day it is that we praise him.

The fact that the Koran/Islam controls peoples lives…in such minutiae makes it, for me, even less likely for it to be divinely inspired. God wants us to love Him because we CHOOSE to love him, not as mindless robots on an artificial schedule.

But…because He did give us free-will…then I will say that if following the rules in the Koran makes you feel closer to God…if it guides you to make moral choices for you and your family; then more power to you. I pray that you will be rewarded for your faith, and for your devotion to God.

God bless,

Mik

 

[Sister_Amy]

Why would Christianity want to gather people in a mosque to listen to the Qur’an?

Holy Scripture–the Word of God

Certainly millions of Christians attend services every week and millions more attend Christmas and Easter Services.

This is only equivalent to Muslim Friday prayers and khutbahs–but Muslims pray at the mosque not just every week, every day, but five times a day! And you say millions more attend Christmas and Easter? Muslims experience a similar situation–millions more attending the Eid prayers (twice a year!). We have to rent a soccer field to hold this prayer–5-6 thousand people here! And every week our mosque brings in 1500 people for jummah. Usually 150 people for an average prayer. And this is not even one of the largest mosques in the country. Probably not even the largest in the state.

And certainly millions of people every year make pilgramages to Rome, Lourdes, Jerusalem, etc.

At the same time?

As for praying the same direction; well Jesus taught us that it is not where we worship, but what is in our hearts when we worship that is what matters.

At every moment, somewhere in the world, there is a Muslim praying, facing the Ka’ba. That is something!

There is a huge difference between the persecution that the first muslims experienced and what the Christians experienced.

Why?

By the time of Muhammed’s death Islam had already conquored most of the Arabia. Certainly within 50 years of its founding, Islam as a whole could be considered relatively safe from persecution. Fifty years after the death of Christ, the persecutions of Christians were just starting.

Isn’t that interesting. More proof for the validity of Islam, it seems to me.

I am not denying that Islam had martyrs, however, the level of persecution that Islam experienced simply cannot compare to the persecution of Christians prior to the reign of Constantine.

Would you like to tell the woman stabbed in her abdomen that it’s not enough torture? Frankly this seems to me again a proof of Islam.

With respect, many Muslim “Martyrs” died in wars of conquest. That is not the same as “protecting” the Islamic state.

Didn’t I mention the Battle of Badr? Let me add the Battle of Uhud.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I agree with you regarding “prayer, charity, humility before God and repentance”.

Indeed, the action commanded more than anything else in the Qur’an is nothing other than prayer. And second to prayer is giving in charity. The most frequently used attributed for Allah in the Qur’an is Ar-Rahman, the Compassionate–a name derived from the word for womb (rahm) which nurtures a baby inside the mother.

Obviously, christians see the OT prophets telling us about the virgin birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus. This is called prophecy. I understand that you do not accept this, and for the obvious reason - the OT prophecies and the Qur’an contradict each other. We can’t believe both; It’s one or the other (or neither.)

Muslims believe in the virgin birth–didn’t you know that? The Qur’an contains a number of stories which have minor contradictions with those in the OT, and even gives an explanation for the differences.

I hope you can respect that we have our disagreements about that.

What do you mean by respect?

 

[dolphinlove]

oh boy, where do i begin…
i better read this thread first and gather what has already been said, i dont want to repeat…

 

[txsoldier94]

At every moment, somewhere in the world, there is a Muslim praying, facing the Ka’ba. That is something!

At every moment, somewhere in the world Christ transubstantiates the bread and wine into His Body and Blood using the deficient hands of a mortal man as His own. And then…we get to partake of that Saving Feast…we get to participate, with Christ, in that greatest act of atonement…when God, made flesh, took on the sins of the Whole World throughout all of Time…including yours and mine and our grandchildren’s grandchildren, so that we can be one with Him in heaven forever.

That…now that…is SOMETHING!!!

Mik

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… One example is when the Muslims went to Mecca (from Medina) to make a pilgrimage, and the Meccans prevented them from it. A treaty was signed there, and God revealed a verse telling the Muslims that they would make pilgrimage! And they did, two years later.

When a coach makes a prediction that his team will win a game of football, it doesn’t mean the coach is divinely inspired. It’s just a prediction, and sometimes they come true.

I’m sorry if you can’t see the precise accuracy of biblical prophecy.

Another example is the prophecy about Rome. You see, the Persians defeated the Romans by taking Jerusalem in 614 and by 615 the Muslims were under such persecution and torture that some had migrated to a Christian community elsewhere. The Qur’an then makes the prophecy saying that the Roman empire had fallen, but that in a few years (3-10) they will gain victory even after this defeat. It was a shocking prophecy at the time–nobody really thought it possible. But to make it even more shocking, the Qur’an also predicted that the Muslims (who had just had to flee under the face of severe treatment in Mecca) would also have victory! But sure enough, the Prophet migrated to Medina in 622 and Heraclius by 623 was launching a counter attack, which proved to be immensely successful.

I hope that a leader like Muhammed would say such a thing. It would be a great way to inspire his followers.

Again, not a great piece of accuracy. It’s an obvious prediction a leader would make in a time of battle.

I did not find any of this information in that other thread, so you do me an injustice now if you do not read it.

If only you would believe me when I say that I’ve read it all before many times.

One of my favourite biblical prophecies in the lunar eclipse that Joel wrote about. We know a lunar eclipse took place on the day of the crucifixion - Friday 3rd April 33AD. Fascinating stuff, especially considering that in the time of Joel they had no idea what a lunar eclipse was - that’s why he referred to it as a moon turning red like blood (Joel 2:31).

Can you see why the accuracy of biblical prophecy is so fascinating?