Proof for the Bible

[Lapell]

Thanks for this information. I am so happy to hear this. We had been looking for the book i.e. bible. We could not find it. You have guided us to the real thing that there was no book. Thanks. We will not look for any book (of the christians) now.

Well, Muhammad himself didn’t himself leave you a book either. Somebody else wrote it. Same thing with the Gospels!

 

[planten]

Ok let first start with to sin is to disobey God. Now we see In Genesis 2 verses 16-17
16 And he commanded him, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shalt eat:

17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat. for in what day soever thou shalt eat of it, thou shalt die the death.

And In Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death. But the grace of God, life everlasting, in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is connecting Genesis with Romans. That is not fair. Where is Jesus in it?? We must know who is talking about the wages of sin. Did Jesus ever say himself that price of sin is death?? I hope not.

 

[planten]

Well, Muhammad himself didn’t himself leave you a book either. Somebody else wrote it. Same thing with the Gospels!

Dear Lapell, at least Muhammad dictated a book in his lifetime and had it written down in his life time. Jesus had the revelation from his God. He guided the people accordingly, as per revelation and guidance form his God. That is true.

There was no need for him to have things written down and he did not have anything written down. That was alright because he was a non-lawbearing prophet… It is not necessary for any prophet who did not bring any new law to tell everything to his people. He tells and speaks only few things that are useful and necessary for the followers.

But for a law bearing prophet like Moses and Muhammad, it is necessary to have things written down. The revelation in such cases is fully written down. and left with the people. So if Jesus did not leave any book then there is no harm. The people made up a book of his sayings and doings. But those words will not be the words of God. That is how we look at it.

 

[planten]

Further to the above, we are talking about the books. The Quran calls itself “A Book”. Does the bible call itself a book? I would like to learn from any one whether there is anything in the bible NT calling itself a book?

 

[Lapell]

Hm. Why can’t I believe in God and believe that God has the power to save me without a sacrifice? How come I can’t believe that Jews and Gentiles are equally deserving of salvation and they can equally serve their Lord, and are judged equally, and that God can forgive them both?
Don’t you believe all men are created equally?

The idea of sacrifice was also widespread in other religions, sister!
Why did THEY perform sacrifices at all?

 

[Lapell]

That’s cute. The very obvious differences in the old covenant and the new are so profound to me that I could never believe that Biblical authors had a “common thread” or even had the some motives in their writing. Not to mention the differences between Gospel writers, between the book of James and the letters of Paul… yikes. But anyway…
What was his (i.e., Muhammad’s saws) clear agenda, according to you?

Well, the common thread is Judaism. Jesus was born and circumcised as a Jew. So were the 12 Apostles he chose. They used the same Scriptures, they sang the Psalms like the rest of the Jews. And if you claim to fulfill the Scriptures like Jesus just did, there have to be Scriptures to begin with!

 

[agangbern]

Originally Posted by planten View Post
Thanks for this information. I am so happy to hear this. We had been looking for the book i.e. bible. We could not find it.

This is connecting Genesis with Romans. That is not fair. Where is Jesus in it??

You have looking for the bible and you said you could not find it!
Now, you believe in Genesis and Romans, or so you cited them here.Where did you find Genesis and Romans?

Jesus was there at the time of creation and in the time of St. Paul. Even some “Christians” do not find Him there, how much more do you think could a Muslim not find Him there?

 

[Lapell]

So if Jesus did not leave any book then there is no harm. The people made up a book of his sayings and doings. But those words will not be the words of God. That is how we look at it.

And why should they not be the words of God. If Jesus is to you at least a prophet, it means that he speaks in the name of God. So, no matter when his words would be put down in writing, shouldn’t they be the words of God at any rate, provided they are his words told in the name of God? I don’t see the difference. If the disciple who write them down is faithful to Jesus and not making them up for his own advantage, the words would be faithful to Jesus as well, wouldn’t they?

 

[Lapell]

It is not necessary for any prophet who did not bring any new law to tell everything to his people. He tells and speaks only few things that are useful and necessary for the followers.
But for a law bearing prophet like Moses and Muhammad, it is necessary to have things written down. The revelation in such cases is fully written down. and left with the people.

Well, you must not know much about the prophets of the Bible! For instance, Jeremiah had his own secretary, Baruch. And at one point when all his prophecies put in writing were burnt, Jeremiah ordered baruch to write all those prophecies again. And that’s how we have the book of Jeremiah. Was Jeremiah a law-bearing prophet, planten? How is it that the Qur’an doesn’t mention this one, tell me? He was speaking in the name of God and met much opposition,

 

[Lapell]

Further to the above, we are talking about the books. The Quran calls itself “A Book”. Does the bible call itself a book? I would like to learn from any one whether there is anything in the bible NT calling itself a book?

Each book in the OT is called a book, and the Bible is a collection of books. Whether it’s in one book or in many, what bearing does it have? It’s the Word of God anyhow! The number of books has nothing to do here!

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

This is connecting Genesis with Romans. That is not fair. Where is Jesus in it?? We must know who is talking about the wages of sin. Did Jesus ever say himself that price of sin is death?? I hope not.

Genesis 1:26

26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.

Gospel according to ST John 1: 1-4

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Both have to do with God and Jesus being one and together from the beginning.

Gospel according to ST John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Gospel according to ST John 1:29
29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Genesis 1:26

26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.

Gospel according to ST John 1: 1-4

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Both have to do with God and Jesus being one and together from the beginning.

Gospel according to ST John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Gospel according to ST John 1:29
29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.

To continue one has to link Genesis and Romans( OT and NT ) as they are the same message. the New Testament is the Fulling of all that came before in the Old. To link this with the OP is why we have proof of the Bible. Is why we can not hold to books such as the Quran or the Book of Mormon to name a couple. For as with the Being of creation the covenant with Israel the giving of the law and the coming of the Redeemer and the promise of his return all as been said nothing more need be said and there for anything that says to be a new or better revelation of God is false.

 

[planten]

Originally Posted by planten View Post
Thanks for this information. I am so happy to hear this. We had been looking for the book i.e. bible. We could not find it.

You have looking for the bible and you said you could not find it!
Now, you believe in Genesis and Romans, or so you cited them here.Where did you find Genesis and Romans?

Jesus was there at the time of creation and in the time of St. Paul. Even some “Christians” do not find Him there, how much more do you think could a Muslim not find Him there?

Yes quite right. I was looking for Jesus in Genesis and in the Romans. But I do not see jesus there. You also did not show Jesus in Genesis. Point the word Jesus there please.

 

[planten]

And why should they not be the words of God. If Jesus is to you at least a prophet, it means that he speaks in the name of God. So, no matter when his words would be put down in writing, shouldn’t they be the words of God at any rate, provided they are his words told in the name of God? I don’t see the difference. If the disciple who write them down is faithful to Jesus and not making them up for his own advantage, the words would be faithful to Jesus as well, wouldn’t they?

**Jesus was a prophet of God and he was a true prophet of God. There is no doubt. He was given the message and he passed it on correctly. But he did not dictate or tell any one to write down the words of God.

His disciples may have written down his teachings in their own words. But that were not the words of God. Those were the words of the scribes conveying some of the things (in meaning only) and not in actual words of God…**

 

[planten]

Well, you must not know much about the prophets of the Bible! For instance, Jeremiah had his own secretary, Baruch. And at one point when all his prophecies put in writing were burnt, Jeremiah ordered baruch to write all those prophecies again. And that’s how we have the book of Jeremiah. Was Jeremiah a law-bearing prophet, planten? How is it that the Qur’an doesn’t mention this one, tell me? He was speaking in the name of God and met much opposition,

** I will try to look into Jeremiah. There are books about many prophets of Israel in bible OT. They give the message or teachings of those prophets. But those writings are also not in the actual word and language at all from God.
Where will I get the actual book of Jeremiah when i cannot get an actual bible even?

**

 

[planten]

Each book in the OT is called a book, and the Bible is a collection of books. Whether it’s in one book or in many, what bearing does it have? It’s the Word of God anyhow! The number of books has nothing to do here!

I wanted to know and to see if the bible NT calls itself a book in itself, in any chapter. Same about the books of other prophets. Do any of them call Torah a book or their books as a book? I hope not. Similary, we may call bible a book. But bible itself never calls itself a book and does not tell in which language it was revealed.

 

[planten]

Genesis 1:26

26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.

Gospel according to ST John 1: 1-4

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.

4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Both have to do with God and Jesus being one and together from the beginning.

Gospel according to ST John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Gospel according to ST John 1:29
29 The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world.

** That is right. It is in bible. Where is Jesus mentioned in Genesis please. Do not talk about the word. That becomes ambigous. I want to know the mention of Jesus in Genesis. Also, I understand nothing of the Romans. What they have to do with Jesus when they (Romans) accepted christianity 300 years after Jesus?**

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

** … Where is Jesus mentioned in Genesis please…**

And the following is from paarsurrey on a different thread…

… I couldn’t see name of Jesus mentioned in the quote of Isaiah…

I’ve noticed in different posts that planten and paarsurrey use similar font colours and similar font size. Albeit, not in the above examples.

I’ve often seen similar thoughts by planten and paarsurrey.

I know it’s been denied that planten and paarsurrey are the same person, but the similarities are just uncanny.

Anyway, the OT writers didn’t know they were writing about Jesus. That’s the beauty of prophecy. Jesus brought the OT to life.

 

[Lapell]

Yes quite right. I was looking for Jesus in Genesis and in the Romans. But I do not see jesus there. You also did not show Jesus in Genesis. Point the word Jesus there please.

Of course you don’t find the word “Jesus” in any book of the OT, at least not standing for the one Jesus of the Gospels. Until he was conceived and was given the name Jesus, He was the Word of God, you find it in the very beginning of the Gospel according to John. So He really is always where God is in the OT as well… even if you don’t read the name Jesus! … Haven’t you been told this before?

 

[Lapell]

**Jesus was a prophet of God and he was a true prophet of God. There is no doubt. He was given the message and he passed it on correctly. But he did not dictate or tell any one to write down the words of God.

His disciples may have written down his teachings in their own words. But that were not the words of God. Those were the words of the scribes conveying some of the things (in meaning only) and not in actual words of God…**

Frankly, Planten! Isn’t the meaning what matters? If it is written in the true Spirit of God, then it is the Word of God! You seem to have a much too material approach to sacred matters, which involve things not so material! If Jesus was there, the word Jesus had to appear! You sound like somebody with only the understanding of things litteral. With sacred matters, it simply is not enough, Planten!